Council Tax Baliffs

[Karen W]

Hi I am wondering if anyone could advise me

 

Back in August my council tax for 2008-09 was put into court and a liability order granted. Since September I have been paying a monthly amount directly to the council under their online payment system - I didn't ask if I could do this but presumed that as long as the account number and year it related to was on the payment reference that they would be able to tie it into my account.

 

In October I received a letter from Dukes baliffs stating that they had been instruced to collect the debt, but it was for the full amount on the liability order with no mention of the payments I had made to the council. Basically I ignored the letter and carried on making the payments direct.

 

On Tuesday I was off work and my car was parked in my driveway which is also shared with my next door neighbour. There was a knock at the door and I was upstairs and looked out of the window to see a man walking away from the door and getting into a white van (he must have only stood there for about 10 seconds, not even giving me time to get down the stairs to the door)

 

Anyway I got down the stairs and there was nothing put through the letterbox so I though it must have just been a salesman or something. About 2 hours later I went out to take my dog out and walked down my shared driveway, as I walked past my neighbours garden an envelope caught my attention, I picked it up and it was addressed to me and from Dukes saying that I still owed against the liability order, they have added on charges of £43.50 (which seems correct from what I read) and that I should contact them to arrange payment of the debt.

 

My questions are:

 

1 As my car was in the drive, is it possible that they have levied on it or do they have to leave paperwork to state this?

2 Can they take a note of the registration number and levy at a later date?

3 The fact that I found the letter in my neighbours garden, does this contravene Data Protection

 

I am still paying the council monthly payments and will continue to do so until the debt is paid off but my worry is that now they have seen my car would they be able to take it?

 

Any advice would be gratefully received.

[miziwizzi]

Hello,

 

I am not 100% certain regarding your car however should you not pay the baliffs then I would assume that they would levy against it.

 

As you have not made this payment arrangement with your local council I would suggest you do contact them and discuss the matter to see if they would take the account back at all-worth a try.

 

I am unsure weather the fact that they have kept monies paid to them could infer an agreement but am sure someone will be along to advise you further.

[Karen W]

I did think of writing to the baliffs with one of the template letters from here informing them that I was paying the council direct but wasn't sure which one to use.

 

Is it possible that the council would take back the debt or does anyone have any further advice in addition to miziwizzi in the fact that as they have not returned the money that it infers an agreement. Could anyone advice of any template letters that I could use to send to the council regarding taking back the account?

 

I have not had any acknowledgement from the council at all regarding the payments, but it is going directly into their council tax account as listed on their payment book with my account number and 08-09 added on after the reference

[Guest BURP]

By all accounts this letter usually does hole-in-one. Amend as needed.

 

Council Tax (Enforcements) Department

Invincible Borough Council

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME & ANY REF]: Visit by your bailiff on [DATE]

 

I have had an opportunity to seek advice and I write on the understanding that case law has ruled an authority is liable for its bailiffs.

 

On [DATE] I was visited by your bailiff collecting unpaid council tax. He left a document in a neighbours front garden and we were unable to reach an amicable resolve. The bailiff showed threatening behaviour and became defensive and vexatious in nature. He made unrealistic demands of money which are way beyond my means.

 

I now ask the Council to:

 

a) Take the case back from the bailiff.

b) Accept my original offer to pay £[AMOUNT] a week to clear the arrears

c) Pay me a reasonable compensation for my inconvenience and for my efforts in seeking discovery of information and

d) Receiving an over-zealous bailiff acting for you making unrealistic demands of money and defrauding me with his fees.

 

If you fail to satisfactorily complete the above I will automatically escalate the complaint to the local government ombudsman in fourteen days from the date of this letter. Please treat this letter as Stage 1.

 

Due to my circumstances I am unable to pay the debt as demanded by the bailiffs and I will make payment of £[AMOUNT] each month for [NUMBER OF] monthly installments with a final installment of £[AMOUNT]. This may seem a long time but it's all I can afford and allows me to pay future liabilities without falling into arrears. I confirm I am not refusing to pay this debt.

 

This letter is delivered by Royal Mail and I deem it to be served on you by the ordinary course of post in the meaning of Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is your responsibility and in your own interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

[NAME]

Enc 1st payment.

 

 

 

Incase you get a bailiff, never open the door or speak to him. Hand this through a window and ask him to leave.

 

[DATE]

 

BY HAND

 

Dear Bailiffs.

 

Re: Your Reference

 

[NAME OF] Council appears to have instructed you to collect unpaid council tax.

 

This notice directs that you are not being given entry to my home or to levy goods contained within and your entitlement to charge a Walking Possessions fee stands revoked. Please be advised that if your fees are found to contradict Regulation 14(2) or Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and you may be liable for criminal prosecution under the Fraud Act 2006. Without corresponding with you further I will also automatically file a Form 4 at court.

 

Due to my circumstances I am unable to pay the debt in whole and will make payment of £[AMOUNT] each month for [NUMBER OF] monthly instalments direct to the council.

 

These are the only payments I can afford and allows me to pay future council tax liabilities without falling into arrears. Please be advised it is not a "criminal offence" for me to deny a bailiff entry to my property and it is an offence to threaten me with breaking and entering with "locksmiths".

 

Please provide me with a breakdown of your fees, put it through the letterbox and quietly leave the property.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

 

YOUR NAME

[tomtubby]

BURP.

 

I am very concerned at the type of letters that you are suggesting posters to send. In particular the one asking for "compensation" of £4,999.

 

It must be remembered that in the case of the bailiff company the letter will be going to somebody at a call centre and I am quite certain that this type of letter will be ignored.

 

In the letter that you have posted here there are further problems:

 

 

 

 

 

I have had an opportunity to seek advice and I write on the understanding that case law has ruled an authority is liable for its bailiffs.

 

On [DATE] I was visited by your bailiff collecting unpaid council tax. He left a document in a neighbours front garden and we were unable to reach an amicable resolve. The bailiff showed threatening behaviour and became defensive and vexatious in nature. He made unrealistic demands of money which are way beyond my means.

 

The poster has said that the bailiff knocked at the door and left after 10 seconds. How can this be making "unrealistic demands of money...or using "threatening" behaviour which was "defensive and vexatious"? Also she never spoke with the bailiff so how could there be a case where "we were unable to reach an amicable resolve".

 

I now ask the Council to:

 

a) Take the case back from the bailiff.

b) Accept my original offer to pay £[AMOUNT] a week to clear the arrears

c) Pay me a reasonable compensation for my inconvenience and for my efforts in seeking discovery of information and

d) Receiving an over-zealous bailiff acting for you making unrealistic demands of money and defrauding me with his fees.

 

a) This is almost impossible. It is very rare for this to happen.

 

b) As Karen has said....she had not made any agreement or offer to the council. She merely assumed that she could pay online.

 

c) This constant reference to compensation is silly. The maximum claim for a small claim action in court is £5,000. I believethat this is why you are stating in your many posts that the compensation that you are looking at is £4,999. However, it is NOT that easy to sue a bailiff company and you have the risk of losing and having to pay a bailiff companies legal costs. Also all that has happened here is that a letter was left outside.

 

d) This is dangerous and could get somebody into serious trouble. How can this one letter from a bailiff in any way be seen to be "defrauding me of fees".

 

If you fail to satisfactorily complete the above I will automatically escalate the complaint to the local government ombudsman in fourteen days from the date of this letter. Please treat this letter as Stage 1.

 

There are many rejections being made by the LGO on the basis that you must allow the council to fully investigate any complaint before sending it to the LGO.

 

Due to my circumstances I am unable to pay the debt as demanded by the bailiffs and I will make payment of £[AMOUNT] each month for [NUMBER OF] monthly installments with a final installment of £[AMOUNT]. This may seem a long time but it's all I can afford and allows me to pay future liabilities without falling into arrears. I confirm I am not refusing to pay this debt.

 

Local authorities are under instruction from central government (who have little money!!) to get their council tax revenues into their offices quickly. The local councils have instructed all of their relevant bailiff companies that the very maximum that a payment term can be agreed is 6 months but most require full payment within the tax year ie : by the end of March 2009 (5 months).

 

In addition, the council could not care whether you are not able to pay other debts as council tax is a priority debt.

[Guest BURP]

Read my post. It says Amend as needed.

[miziwizzi]

As far as getting the council to take back the account:

 

I have had this happen before, not hard, just one phone call, only thing I would say it depends on is the nature of the person taking the call, in any case, always worth an ask.

[Karen W]

Thanks for the replies - I have wrote a letter to the baliffs informing them that I have been sending payments to the council each month since September and would they refer it back to the council - not received a reply on that as yet but yesterday I got home and there was a letter in the post from them stating the following

 

'Your goods are now at risk'

 

Your case has now been allocated to my team to conclude. We are scheduling your case into our Removal Team's workload for immediate seizure and removal of goods. Your goods will then be sold at public auction to the highest bidder. Auctioneer and storage costs will be added to the above balance. In any event our Removal Team's attendance charges which will be no less than £95.00 will become payable by you also.

 

To prevent the above action you must telephone ******* immediately to arrange full payment.

 

In the absence of any contact, we shall have no option than to continue as above.

 

Does anyone have any advice?? I have never let anyone into the house or even spoke to the baliffs, my main worry was that my car could be taken - most of the time it is not parked at the house as I stay at my boyfriends most of the time, so hopefully it will be ok.

 

The reason that I hadn't paid my council tax dates back years to the fact that when I split with my long term partner I was left with many debts one being council tax and baliffs got involved and for the past 5 years I have struggled to pay the baliffs, then got in trouble with the next year's payment meaning that again it goes to baliffs - just when you think that you are getting on top of things everything goes wrong again.

 

I am so glad of this site as in previous years I have just paid the baliffs and their fees (Rossendales) and from what I have read on this forum it looks like they overcharged me by around £300 each year in fees, they were never let into the house but always the fees increased - now I am thinking that hopefully following the advice of some of the posts I can SAR them and get some of these fees back but in the meantime can anyone help me with the present problem?

[scatz1972]

Hi Karen

 

My only advice is dont park your car anywhere near your home, keep your windows and doors locked and dont open the door to the bailiff. Eventually the bailiff will send the debt back to the council, if you havent signed anything or let the bailiffs in then they can only charge for 2 visits £24.50 for the first and £18 for the second.

 

Keep paying the council with regular payments, this way you are demonstrating that you are willing to pay your council tax. Perhaps you should put this in writing to them aswell. Remember to keep copies of all letters you send and receipts for your payments.

Edited November 21, 2008 by scatz1972
missed something out.

[Voxter]

As far as getting the council to take back the account:

 

I have had this happen before, not hard, just one phone call, only thing I would say it depends on is the nature of the person taking the call, in any case, always worth an ask.

 

why would they want it back. the op defaults every year & the bailff company have collected each year.

 

It really depends on your history with the council.

[scatz1972]

Also do you live alone, if you do are you claiming your discount on your council tax?

[Karen W]

Hi Scatz thanks for your reply, yes I do live on my own and yes I do claim the 25% discount but with everything else it is still a struggle.

 

Voxter, the only reason that the baliffs get it every year is the extortionate charges that they add extra to the account which makes keeping up to date with the current year difficult - I don't want to have to keep paying baliffs but the council are far to quick to bring baliffs into the equation and do not seem to want to listen to householders who are in difficulty. When this year's account went to court, I was 2 months in arrears with my council tax - I rang the council up to talk about it before the hearing date and the response I got was nothing can be done until the liability order has been granted, ring back after that date.

 

By the time it actually went to court I was only 1 month in arrears, I rang the council back the day after it went to court which was the 26th August and was told that it was now too late, the account had been passed to baliffs and there was nothing I could do about it, that was when I decided to start paying the council direct by internet transfer into their account and have done so ever since.

 

Sorry to rant but the council really get my back up!!

[scatz1972]

After it went to court in Aug to get liability granted did you get an income/expenditure form/questionnaire etc?

[Karen W]

I did get one from the council when I got the letter saying it was going to court, which I filled in and sent through to them offering that I paid another 10.00 per month on top of my monthly payment to bring the account up to date (which would have taken 13 months), but I never received any reply to that.

 

Come to think of it I didn't even receive a letter from the Court to say that a liability order had been granted

[Karen W]

can anyone tell me if the £95.00 attendance fee is a lawful charge please? I am just composing another letter to the baliff and wanted to make sure of my facts. I know that first and second visits are £24.50 and £16.00 but I thought that was all they could charge without a levy?

[scatz1972]

Hi

 

No its not, there is a statutory fee scale that a bailiff HAS to adhere to when collecting unpaid council tax. Here is a link to the scale on national debtline, scroll to the bottom of the page

 

National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 02 Bailiffs And Council Tax

Edited November 21, 2008 by scatz1972
mix up of words

[Karen W]

Thank you scatz - below is the letter that I am sending to the baliffs, from your opinion do I need to add anything to it?

 

Dear Sir or Madam.

 

Re: Your Reference ********

Client Reference:

******** Council appears to have instructed you to collect unpaid council tax.

 

This notice directs that you are not being given entry to my home or to levy goods contained within and your entitlement to charge a Walking Possessions fee stands revoked. Please be advised that if your fees now or in the future are found to contradict Regulation 14(2) or Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, you may be liable for criminal prosecution under the Fraud Act 2006. Without corresponding with you further I will also automatically file a Form 4 at court.

Since September 2008 I have been making payments direct to the Council through their online payments system and therefore the balance shown on your letters is incorrect.

 

Due to my circumstances I am unable to pay the debt in whole and will make payment of £**** each month direct to the council as I have been doing since September 2008. I have also asked that the council take back this account.

 

These are the only payments I can afford and allows me to pay future council tax liabilities without falling into arrears. Please be advised it is not a "criminal offence" for me to deny a bailiff entry to my property and it is an offence to threaten me with breaking and entering with "locksmiths".

 

I am willing to pay the fees due of £24.50 first visit and £18.00 second visit totalling £42.50 as these are lawful. In response to your threat of adding £95.00 attendance fee to my account may I refer you to the table below from the National Debtline. A charge for attendance can only be charged after levy has been made – in this case no levy has been made and therefore no charge can be added.

EVENT

COUNCIL TAX CHARGES

POLL TAX CHARGES

For a visit to your home where no entry is made and a list of goods is not made

(i.e. a levy is not made)

£24.50 for a first visit

£18.00 for a second visit

No further charges for further visits

£15 for a first visit

£12.50 for a second visit

No further charges for further visits

For making a levy (i.e. where the bailiffs gain peaceful entry and make a list of goods)

£24.50 for the first £100 or less

4% for the next £400

2.5% for the next £1,500

£15 or 15%

For entering into a 'walking possession' agreement

Flat fee of £12

10p per day

For a 'close possession' agreement (e.g. bailiff stays with the goods)

£15 per day

10p per day

For one attendance with a vehicle with a view to recover goods after the levy has been made under this heading

Reasonable costs incurred

(N.B. only one charge can be made.)

For the removal and storage of goods

Reasonable costs incurred

For various items relating to sale or proposed sale of the goods (e.g. auctioneers' fees etc)

Various fees and expenses

 

Yours Faithfully

 

[Karen W]

Sorry the table did not paste properly but you can get the gist of it

[scatz1972]

Well "my" opinion is that you shouldnt put the bit about fraud. (Im sure others will disagree)

 

The main purpose of the letter is just to let them know that you know your rights.

 

Not sure about the locksmith bit either, did they actually do that?

 

It might be worth your while contacting your local MP, they usual run surgeries where you can drop in. Im concerned that your income/expenditure form and offer to pay in installments wasnt responded to, and im sure that the council is ment to give you atleast 2 weeks written notice of you account being handed over to the bailiff.

 

The resident expert on these boards for bailiffs is Tomtubby, hopefully she will look in and give you some more advice.

[Karen W]

Thanks Scatz, I will amend and take out the fraud and locksmith parts and send it today, hopefully I will get a response

[miziwizzi]

why would they want it back. the op defaults every year & the bailff company have collected each year.

 

It really depends on your history with the council.

 

As my post stated its worth an ask, as for history with the council, I had mine taken back by them even though it was actually the 3rd year in a row we had had difficulty, the previous 2 being paid to Rossendales, so as I said before its worth an ask.

[Karen W]

Hi, yet another addition to this post.

 

I got home from work yesterday to find another visit letter from the baliffs, now stating that they attended with a view to removals and in order for no further action to be taken I need to pay them XXXXXX - an increase of £272.50 on top of my original council tax bill.

 

No mention at all has been made regarding the amounts that I have already paid over to the Council by bank transfer and no mention of a reply to my letter sent over a week ago.

 

Up to the last visit 11th November to which I responded with the letter, the fees charged were £42.00, so just like that another £230.50 has been added on. My boyfriend was actually at my house all day yesterday putting some lights in the garage and he said that no-one came near the house at all so it looks like they just added some more charges on and pushed the letter through the door.

 

Surely this is not legal, is it a right for a baliff to just add whatever they feel like on top of a bill. Also isn't it amazing that the signature on the letter is illegible!

 

Does anyone have any idea of what the extra charges could be and am I right in thinking that only the 1st and 2nd fee is legal & chargeable??

 

Can anyone advise on the next plan of action?? I have sent a letter to the council but as yet no response has been received but no way am I going to pay a baliff money for nothing, this is how I got into trouble with council tax as first a baliff gets involved, adds extortionate fees on top and after having to lend the money to pay these getting in trouble with the next year's bill and it starts all over again.

 

The last point on there letter is ' do not ignore this letter as we will keep on calling '

 

Sorry to rant on but I am so annoyed by these people - they know that people are struggling with money, else a person would not be in a position where baliffs are involved - why can't they be reasonable and then people would be reasonable back!!

[miziwizzi]

Karen.

 

Call your council and tell them you wish to speak to person who deals with complaints regarding baliffs, dont take any flack, the baliffs are not acting correctly and are the councils agents.

[chris600uk]

am I right in thinking that only the 1st and 2nd fee is legal & chargeable??

 

You are absolutely right, so long as no lawful levy has been made.

 

 

You are entitled to a printout of your account from the council which should show the payments you have made, as well as the amount shown on your original liability order.

 

I take it you have kept the email reciepts for each payment?

 

I don't think it would do any harm to include mention of fraud in the letters, if only to remind them that knowingly charging excessively is fraudulent as you offer them the opportunity to correct their records.

[chris600uk]

What worked for me was sending emails of each letter to the bailiffs with a copy to the council tax dept as well as an email copy to the email address of the head of the revenues and benefits department. With hard copies to the bailiffs and the council tax dept.

They finally realised that I meant business and that my letters sounded sufficiently reasonable to be embarrassing if they were put in front of a magistrate as part of a form 4 complaint.

 

It's a marathon and you have to build a case brick by brick, or letter by letter.