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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Never signed agreement! ** WON**


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Received a final demand letter from Metropolitan Credit Services on Friday, rang them immediately and informed them i was recording the call, even though i wasnt. I told them that this account was still in dispute and until the dispute was sorted they have no right to chase this money. I also informed them that I had yet to recieve a response from HSBC after my CCA request and that they have until 20/11/08 to do so. MCS said they would now put this account on hold again as "theres not really much we can do with it at the moment in the present circumstances"...It felt great being in total control with them.

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Well done mike, that's sorted them out! :)

 

As HSBC's collection agency, I think they just trawl the database to find cases they can chase for money:rolleyes:..... a lot of people will cough up, because they don't know any better ......... Knowledge is power / control.... as you've just found out - :D.

They'll probably just refer it back to HSBC proper, or flag it - 'this guy knows the game, leave him alone .........' LOL!

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Let the games begin..................:D

You may receive different advice to your query as people have different experiences and opinions. Please use your own judgement in deciding whose advice to take.

 

If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional. Any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability.

 

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court bundles for dummies

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Good morning everyone!, I have still not received a reply from HSBC after my CCA request which was posted on 3/11/08 (received and signed by them on 04/11/08.what is the best course of action to take now?, do i wait another few days to see if anything comes through?, Do i now inform the organisations that i told them i would if they did not comply?

Edited by mike77
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Hi Mike ,

I'd say if you don't get anything in Monday's post you've given them long enough .

Complain to FOS and let HSBC know you've done it .......

 

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumer/complaints.htm

 

This may spark a reaction from them if they know you're serious..... :D

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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  • 2 weeks later...

hello again, I have now informed the financial ombudsmen that HSBC have not replied to my CCA request, they received my second request on 4th Nov 08 so the time has now well and truly passed!, i had originally contacted the FOS on 26/09/08 to log the complaint against HSBC so now the 8 week time period has passed and so i have returned the complaint form to FOS, i have informed HSBC what i have done. I did this by ringing them and i was told that the local branch are still trying to locate my agreement. shall i put something in writing to HSBC or shall i wait to see what the FOS do?

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Hi mike ,

 

Well done on informing FOS ........ I would say write to HSBC , telling them you've re-started your complaint the Ombudsman about their lack of compliance ......

 

I wouldn't bother with the local branch , send it Recorded Delivery to :

 

HSBC Bank Plc

Service Quality Team

Arlington Business Centre

Millshaw Park Lane

Leeds

LS11 0PP

 

Telephone contact with the bank is futile, they don't listen and you have no record of the conversation .....

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Cheers Johnny, Ill get something put in writing now informing them.....was kinda funny when i was told the local branch were "still trying to locate my agreement".... if it aint on my file then where else do they look!!!!! top of filing cabinets??? under desks????..maybe i should volunteer my services for a day and give them a hand searching for it!!!

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:D

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Hello again!, i informed HSBC in writing that the Financial Ombudsman have been informed about the failed CCA request, on friday 5/12/08 i received a response from HSBC, unfortunately i don't have access to a scanner so unable to show on here exactly what i was sent, but basically it was a few pages of the terms of the agreement from the managed loan but the page where i would sign was missing. I know that telephone calls are not recommended on here but i phoned HSBC straight away and told them they have not supplied me with all the details and they informed me they would re-open the request. I have just rang them again now to confirm they did this and was assured they have requested the full details again. i was wondering if it would be worth my while sending them another letter asking them outright if they have the signed agreement in their posession at all? (i know for a fact they do not as i never signed one), so rather than them trying to fob me off continually sending me the wrong info thought this course of action may be best. was wondering if anyone thought that asking them for a simple "yes or no" answer was worth doing. I suppose if i have something in writing from them confirming they dont have it then this would be worth its weight in "annual interest charges under a managed loan" (i think these charges are considerably more than gold)

Edited by mike77
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Hiya Mike, the reason we say don't phone them is because of the number of times these phone calls have been denied at a later date.

 

I would write confirming your conversation and confirm the name of the person you spoke to if you have one, at least their promise will be on record then :)

 

pete

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Hey there Freddy, was kinda hoping she would ring me but as yet nothing! ha.

 

Anyway i sent HSBC a letter on 10/12/08 telling them that they have yet to provide me with a copy of the original signed agreement and if they do not send it in 14 days then i will assume that they no longer have it (they dont....i know everyones probably sick of me saying it but i never signed one) i pretty much used the template that rory32 suggested on page one on this thread. I just altered it a little and deleted bits here and there to suit my particular case.

 

Ive also had a letter from the financial ombudsman saying they will look into my complaint and in around 2 months time they will be able to have an adjudicator look at it and decide an outcome.... does anyone think it best if for the moment i let the FOS decide or am i still ok to go ahead and fight HSBC at the same time? Would the FOS decide in my favour purely on the basis of there not being a signed agreement?

 

Im actually starting to bore myself now im waffling that much! It really was a rough weekend!!

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Hi Mike

 

does anyone think it best if for the moment i let the FOS decide

or am i still ok to go ahead and fight HSBC at the same time?

 

A double -pronged attack might get results , especially if , as you say , they can't back it up with a signed agreement ........ point out that your case is with FOS and suggest it might save FOS and the court's time if they just admitted their lack of a document and gave in ....... :)

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Yep, there's no harm in giving them a wee prod ;)

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello again everyone!, Happy new year and all that jazz.

I sent a letter to HSBC as i said i would stating they have still not complied with my CCA request and i now required them to zero the account and remove the default. well i finally got a letter back from them stating that they are preparing for their response to the FOS (as the eight weeks has passed since i first logged my complaint with them). HSBC say they are now going to await what the FOS says and that they will abide by any decision they make.

Does anyone know if the FOS would find in my favour purely on the basis that there is no signed agreement? obviously im sure HSBC can detail what loans ive had and show transactions to prove it but is the absence of a signed agreement totally damning for them?

Edited by mike77
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Does anyone know if the FOS would find in my favour purely on the basis that there is no signed agreement? obviously im sure HSBC can detail what loans ive had and show transactions to prove it but is the absence of a signed agreement totally damning for them?

 

Hiya Mike, I don't think anyone can predict that because it will be up to the particular officer of the FOS on the particular day he decides :cool:.

 

pete

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Its unlikely I'm afraid - it seems to be FOS policy to say that unenforceability is for the courts to determine not them:roll: Still its cost them £450 for FOS to look at complaint:D

You may receive different advice to your query as people have different experiences and opinions. Please use your own judgement in deciding whose advice to take.

 

If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional. Any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability.

 

If you think I have been helpful PLEASE click the scales

 

court bundles for dummies

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ok thank you, so if the FOS do say it is not upto them to decide if the account is unenforceable and that would be the courts job, if i then took it to court is it likely the courts would find in my favour?, i know this is all ifs and buts but without a signed agreement there is nothing in black and white saying i committed to it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello again people!, Ive spoken to the FOS again recently to ask if there is any further information on when they can look at my complaint and the answer is still "it will probably be a few months before we look at it"... after hearing that the FOS are unlikely to find in my favour from previous posts I'm beginning to wonder what the whole point of going to them is.

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to just go down the court proceedings route and drop FOS out of the equation.

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Difficult to advise on this mike - to borrow from what pete says in #44.... I don't think you can predict which way any particular judge will jump either......

 

You could try brinkmanship and take them down the court road , but if, as they say, they are waiting for FOS to spark - that may not prompt them into settling out of court ........ ?

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Hello again everyone. Just sent off a letter to the HSBC asking for them to re-assess their stance. I know that they are waiting for the FOS to decide on the case but just thought id give them one more chance to wipe the slate clean. I also advised that should the FOS reach a decision that is not satisfactory to myself then i will be issuing court proceedings. Just thought id let them know that i'm well aware that it is "they" that have to abide by what the FOS say, and not "me". I know its a long shot but as long as they know i'm prepared to take this all the way then its worth it!, by the way does anybody know of a case where there has not been a signed agreement yet the bank won in court?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello again everyone, had a letter from the Financial Ombudsman the other day to say my case has now been assigned to an adjudicator to look at and that if i have any more information that may be helpful i should tell them now. Just rang them and reiterated that not only did i not sign an agreement but i was never even shown one at all. HSBC did not attempt to take any repayments from me and the only contact i had from them about the loan was 16 months later when they advised the account would default in 28 days time. So now i suppose its only a matter of weeks before they come to a decision. I just hope i have a sympathetic adjudicator!

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