Reconditioned Acer - who should fix it?

[welshcakes]

Hello all,

 

Here's one for you concerning an Acer Aspire recondtioned laptop that my daughter ( a uni student) purchased online from PCWorld approx 1 month ago. The first thing she did was visit her local PCW store to exchange the mains lead - they had sent the wrong type, no problem there.

 

She has just settled into her rented house, got broadband on and wanted to fire up the laptop to get it organised ready for the impending term.

 

Blue screen, Windows error message, shut down.

 

This happened several times before she gave up and cried on the phone to me! PCWorld aftersales (35 mins on hold on her mobile racking up charges) told her it was nothing to do with them and that she would have to contact Acer direct for recovery discs (they were not included I suppose, because it was a refurbished item).

 

She rang Acer who advised it was nothing to do with them and that it was down to PCWorld. They went on to tell her that if she had no luck, to ring back and they'd sell her recovery discs at £50 a pop!

 

Okay, under Sale of Gooods Act etc, who is liable. I presume PCWorld was as they supplied goods unfit for purpose because the OS appears to be faulty (though of course, it may be a hard drive hardware problem, who knows until someone accepts responsibilty to fix it.

 

What is my daughter's legal position - she paid online using her Debit Maestro card.

 

Poor girl, welcome to the world of grown up consumer hell

[MrShed]

Hmm....it really depends. PCW are implying(probably without basis) that it is a software fault - in which case, it is NEITHER of their responsibilities. In the case of a hardware fault, it is PCW who your daughter should deal with.

 

Is it possible to get the EXACT error message?

[ex.astris]

MrShed is right I believe in the case of the software-related problem. Warranties generally exclude software - although you may have a case if the software problem was present at time of purchase and is not resolved by a 'factory restore'.

In terms of hardware, PC World, along with many other resellers, often buy products from manufacturers without warranties to save on costs, and provide the warranty themselves.

 

It is relatively simple for PC World to test things like the RAM and Hard Disk, so it may be worth dropping it into the branch and asking them to test them to rule it out. Of course, there may be a fault elsewhere, but they are quite common parts to develop faults.

[ForestChav]

What led TTG to the solution it needed recovery media? AFAIK, all Acers have a recovery partition? If this is missing or defective at time of purchase (time of HER purchasing it) then PC World are liable for the costs of the media (though this will have to be dealt with through the store as it isn't strictly a Techguys issue - they are part of DSG but they are a separate company to PCW), if they believe a virus or something your daughter has done to the machine (intentionally or accidentally) has caused it she is liable for the cost.

 

If the error is down to a hardware fault (for example, with the hard drive) then it is PCW who are liable for the costs of the repair, this includes the cost of the media.

 

If she is unwilling to (and understandably) provide the cost of the media to eliminate it being software, as opposed to a hardware issue with the drive then the only other avenue is to diagnose the drive as a hardware fault. Most HDD manufacturers have their own low-level diagnostic tools which can do this, available as a bootable CD downloaded free of charge from their website. The BIOS setup should provide the make and model of the HDD to enable the correct tool to be located. It's still a necessary step to discover what is the cause.

 

What is the text on the blue screen message, specifically the STOP code? If it's getting that far at least the drive's being detected (though, that doesn't mean it doesn't contain corrupted data or bad sectors, for example.)

[MrShed]

Why you mentioning drive FC? Could be anything hardware wise at fault until we know the STOP code.

 

PCW arent liable for the media cost IMO if it was never advertised as coming with recovery discs or partition.

[ForestChav]

Why you mentioning drive FC? Could be anything hardware wise at fault until we know the STOP code.

 

PCW arent liable for the media cost IMO if it was never advertised as coming with recovery discs or partition.

I did say the drive was just an example.

 

Regarding the media it is in violation of the EULA to supply a PC without a licence key and a method to reinstall the OS.

[MrShed]

Ah..fair enough wasnt aware of that!

[curofone]

I did say the drive was just an example.

 

Regarding the media it is in violation of the EULA to supply a PC without a licence key and a method to reinstall the OS.

 

As i am sure you aware hardly any manufacturers send out recovery disks with me machines now most of them will come with a hidden partition on the hard drive that can be accessed from outside of windows but hardly ever starts with acers and all manufacturers including acer have a facility with in windows to burn your own recovery media and if customers bothered to read instructions that came with machine rather than just assuming they know what they are doing they would see that the first thing they are advised to do is make the recovery media. Now if the customer has not bothered to do then they should be made to pay for replacements although £50 is way too much

 

so no way are the manufacturers in violation of anything as they have supplied what they are required to do

[ForestChav]

But as I said, it is supplied with A METHOD to reinstall the OS, if that method does not work, then you should be provided with a method which does free of charge, if the fault with it existed from purchase.

 

But yes, I agree, you should make the discs.

[ex.astris]

As i am sure you aware hardly any manufacturers send out recovery disks with me machines now most of them will come with a hidden partition on the hard drive that can be accessed from outside of windows but hardly ever starts with acers and all manufacturers including acer have a facility with in windows to burn your own recovery media and if customers bothered to read instructions that came with machine rather than just assuming they know what they are doing they would see that the first thing they are advised to do is make the recovery media. Now if the customer has not bothered to do then they should be made to pay for replacements although £50 is way too much

 

so no way are the manufacturers in violation of anything as they have supplied what they are required to do

 

To be fair, as someone who repairs computers for a living (including a lot of Acers) I cannot remember the last time I couldn't get the recovery partition to load if the hardware was ok.

The shortcut is Alt+F10 when you see the Acer screen on power up, although you may have to repeat this key pressing several times in quick succession.

[curofone]

I agree that i have never had a problem to get the acer recovery partition to load but i know many people have had problems on machine that have had no hardware faults (i suspect it is becuase they can listen to instruction and are doing it wrong but never the less they can be a bugger to get started at times)

 

Also as this is reconditions laptop it would not surprise me if something like the hard drive has been replaced and a recovery partition was never installed on the machine in the first place. This is why alot more diagnostics need to be done on this machine before the customer is forced to buy a recovery that i suspect is probably not needed at all.

 

Problem is that the call centre is 90% full of people who have little to no technical experience and if they can not sort out a problem they say recover it and if that does not work order recovery disks, they have no idea even how to check what partitions are on the hard drive

[ForestChav]

Well, you can work on several angles can't you... You can either

- try and confirm that there's something wrong with the hardware and resolve that (which, to test, in most cases needs the customer to go away, download and burn 2 ISOs and run tests... downloading and burning ISOs correctly (ie not burning it as an image and burning the single file to disc)...

- run the HW diags and if they pass you're left with something inconclusive as you can't test all the hardware and it might not be a software problem

- recover the machine and if it still screws up you know it isn't software

 

If the recovery partition is missing then it depends what "recon" means - it should have if it wasn't, so the buyer shouldn't have to buy the discs.

[locutus]

Not seen anyone post exactly what needs to happen here.

 

First thing to do is turn the lappy on, imediatly hold ALT and repetadly press F10 should bring up the recovery screen (try this a few times if it fails). This should allow the re-installation of the OS, back to factory settings. If this does not work (could be due to HDD being replaced or recovery information being removed) then it's down to PC World as ForestChav said, "It is in violation of the EULA to supply a PC without a licence key and a method to reinstall the OS." No recovery partition = no meathod to reinstall the OS.

 

I don't know how you'd stand with getting replacement media direct from Microsoft... if all else fails this may be worth a try

[curofone]

Not seen anyone post exactly what needs to happen here.

 

First thing to do is turn the lappy on, imediatly hold ALT and repetadly press F10 should bring up the recovery screen (try this a few times if it fails). This should allow the re-installation of the OS, back to factory settings. If this does not work (could be due to HDD being replaced or recovery information being removed) then it's down to PC World as ForestChav said, "It is in violation of the EULA to supply a PC without a licence key and a method to reinstall the OS." No recovery partition = no meathod to reinstall the OS.

 

I don't know how you'd stand with getting replacement media direct from Microsoft... if all else fails this may be worth a try

 

Your wrong on just about every account with that post and thats how arguments start up with pcw and the the techguys call centre

 

Ok yes you do start up the recovery outside of windows by holding alt and pressing f10 but thats about the only thing you got right.

 

Firstly pcw need to figure out what was changed when it was reconditions (i promise you they have the systems to do that) if it was the HDD they need to find out if the recovery partition was installed. if not they the customer has the right for refund, end of story. If it was not the HDD they further diags need to be done.

 

Acer are not in violation of EULA as like just about every manufacturer they supply two ways to reinstall the operating system firstly the alt + f10 method and secondly if customers read their instructions they would see they can make recovery media, if a customer decides not to do this well guess whose fault that is. And i know if there was no recovery partition this could not have been done but that why pcw need to check what was replaced or at least look what partitions are on the machine now, not really hard to do.

 

and why would they buy recovery media from Microsoft, i assume you meant acer.

 

Persoanlly it was me and i did not have recovery media i would just download a copy of windows and use the licence key on the bottom of the machine and then download drivers off the acer or techguys website. unless there was a hardware fault in which case that would prove it and i would get a new laptop.

[locutus]

If PCW supplied the PC with no meathod of re-installing the OS they have broken the EULA. Down to them to sort it. If it has a license then Microsoft (providing it's a MS OS) can replace the media.

 

I was going to suggest downloading or obtaining a copy of the relevent OS for backup purposes, but that is a grey area of the copyright laws, as you not only download from P2P sources, you also upload which is illegal.

[curofone]

If PCW supplied the PC with no meathod of re-installing the OS they have broken the EULA. Down to them to sort it. If it has a license then Microsoft (providing it's a MS OS) can replace the media.

 

I was going to suggest downloading or obtaining a copy of the relevent OS for backup purposes, but that is a grey area of the copyright laws, as you not only download from P2P sources, you also upload which is illegal.

 

There is absolutely no evdidence that pcw have supplied a pc with no way of reinistalling the os. Like i said they supplied it was two way, if one of them doesnt work then the customer has a back up way, not pcw fault a customer decides not to read the instructions or doesnt bother to make the disks (some of the manufacturers even supply the dvds to make the recovery media). Like i said before someone needs to check the recovery partition is on the HDD but the call centre is that crap they dont know how to do that so just tell customers to buy media.

 

Microsoft do not supply recovery media for OEM machine, if you ring them up they will always tell you to go to the manufacture of the michine or tell you to go buy a copy of windows.

 

I was not suggesting that the customer downloads of copy of the operating system, i just said that what i would do. I do not see how it would be illegal though if you turned upload off and used your own licence key on the install but then again like you said is a bit of grey area so would not recommend it to someone.

[locutus]

The thing I really don't understand is why don't PCW just say "bring it in and we'll re-install it and check it"? Little bits like that from the company and I'm sure the list of complaints from this website would be a lot shorter! Probably takes less than 50 keystrokes to reinstall an OS, even though it takes quite a bit of time I'm sure they could set 10 - 20 PC's going in the morning and all be sorted in the afternoon.

[curofone]

They do offer a service that will do that, you just have to pay for it. PCW are in the business of raping customers for as much money as they can hence the reason why they sell norton with their machines, even though norton is known for been utter crap and costs double of anthing else. I am sure a 3 year subscription to nod is less than 1 to norton.

 

The reason they do not offer it to all customers is becuase the majority of staff are not technically trained and the few that are could not handle the amount of enquiries they would get. I can not remember the number of calls the technical call centre takes on the average day but i know its far more than all the stores could haddle.

 

also you answer it in your question, time. Yeah i know it does not take long to install the os 30mins to an hour but we all know they dont always install properly and they can take some time to sort out, even if it is just downloading and installing drivers could take an hour and a couple of those a day you have lost a member of staff to what the call centre people are being paid to do.

[labrat]

daft question but what stop code is it on the blue screen because that can ussually point to hardware or software (vageully at least)

 

the stop code is the one that goes 0x000000XX (where XX is the letters therin) not the codes in brackets....

 

if it says machine check exception or anything like that phone the call center and kick them repeatedly untill they book it, they dont like doing that as we moan if they book them wrongly but its ussually the best way.

 

Hiren's BootCD 9.5 - www.hiren.info

 

theres a link there to download a cd, if you use option 5, then 3, it will bring up a program called pccheck use there hard dive option of this and then smart checks, if it brings up any errors at all it needs booking, it will probably say passed but look at the messages above that as this version ALWAYS says passed no matter how many errors there is not sure why so ive stuck to the old version

 

reboot and use option 5, 1, 3 this will load a memory checker, if theres any red lines appear at all call the call center and tell them theres a memory error

 

the tests on that are very similar to pcworlds own engineer disk and i know several who prefer that...

 

alternitily if you do get any errors on that and the call center resist ask to be put through to the second level support, they are mostly trained staff from before capita took over the call center (they only hire untrained staff now adays its cheaper) and they will have the knowledge to either fix the issue or book it correctly

[BloominHeck]

(I have an Acer)

 

The ALT-F10 key sequence stopped working after I reinstalled my computer for the first time.

 

Now when I reinstall I am not instructed to create restore disks (So if PCW did it this way, they have provided no way to reinstall the operating system).

 

There is absolutely no evdidence that pcw have supplied a pc with no way of reinistalling the os. Like i said they supplied it was two way, if one of them doesnt work then the customer has a back up way, not pcw fault a customer decides not to read the instructions or doesnt bother to make the disks (some of the manufacturers even supply the dvds to make the recovery media). Like i said before someone needs to check the recovery partition is on the HDD but the call centre is that crap they dont know how to do that so just tell customers to buy media.

 

Microsoft do not supply recovery media for OEM machine, if you ring them up they will always tell you to go to the manufacture of the michine or tell you to go buy a copy of windows.

 

I was not suggesting that the customer downloads of copy of the operating system, i just said that what i would do. I do not see how it would be illegal though if you turned upload off and used your own licence key on the install but then again like you said is a bit of grey area so would not recommend it to someone.

[curofone]

(I have an Acer)

 

The ALT-F10 key sequence stopped working after I reinstalled my computer for the first time.

 

Now when I reinstall I am not instructed to create restore disks (So if PCW did it this way, they have provided no way to reinstall the operating system).

 

Ok assuming you set your machine back to factory settings using the alt + f10 method not by using a windows cd where you proabably would have deleted the recovery partition then there are a few things you need to check.

 

1 - Have you created the disks already as most manufacturers limit you to making only one set of disks.

2 - is it a reconditions laptop? if so it is possible the machine has already had the disks made for in which case pcw would be responsible for paying for new disks from acer, you probably would have to buy them yourself and get the money back off pcw.

3 - Have you or someone else been messing around with the partitions on the machine if so you can have very easily deleted or messed the recovery partition up.

4 - Do you have or have had norton ghost installed on the machine? it has been known mess up recovery partitons on OEM machines.

5 - Have you uninstalled the acer erecovery management program from your computer

6 - Is the erecovery management program listed under your list of programs? if so what happens when you try to create your disks from within that program?

7 - Also if you have created your disks in the past it might have asked you if you want to delete your recovery partition if you pressed yes this would stop the alt + f10 from working (not sure if this option exists in acers but i know it does in some manufacturers)

 

By resetting your machine back to factory settings using the Alt + f10 method should not stop it working in the future and should not delete the recovery partition, you might not be promoted to make your disks in the future but you should still have the option to do so in the erecovery management program and you should be able to start your recovery from that program too

[BloominHeck]

This should be directed to the OP, not me. I simply provided some info about the actual state of Acer's recovery system.

Ok assuming you set your machine back to factory settings using the alt + f10 method not by using a windows cd where you proabably would have deleted the recovery partition then there are a few things you need to check.

 

1 - Have you created the disks already as most manufacturers limit you to making only one set of disks.

2 - is it a reconditions laptop? if so it is possible the machine has already had the disks made for in which case pcw would be responsible for paying for new disks from acer, you probably would have to buy them yourself and get the money back off pcw.

3 - Have you or someone else been messing around with the partitions on the machine if so you can have very easily deleted or messed the recovery partition up.

4 - Do you have or have had norton ghost installed on the machine? it has been known mess up recovery partitons on OEM machines.

5 - Have you uninstalled the acer erecovery management program from your computer

6 - Is the erecovery management program listed under your list of programs? if so what happens when you try to create your disks from within that program?

7 - Also if you have created your disks in the past it might have asked you if you want to delete your recovery partition if you pressed yes this would stop the alt + f10 from working (not sure if this option exists in acers but i know it does in some manufacturers)

 

By resetting your machine back to factory settings using the Alt + f10 method should not stop it working in the future and should not delete the recovery partition, you might not be promoted to make your disks in the future but you should still have the option to do so in the erecovery management program and you should be able to start your recovery from that program too

[curofone]

This should be directed to the OP, not me. I simply provided some info about the actual state of Acer's recovery system.

 

I was not really aiming at anyone i was just saying that if you recover the machine using ALT + F10 then it will not disable the recovery partition and therefore pcw and acer are not braking any rules as the machine can still have the operating system restored

 

I am sure i have mentioned it before i suspect that machine has probably has a hard drive replaced and a recovery partition was never placed on the machine and therefore the customer would be entitlted to free disks but with everything a lot more diags that just saying oh alt + f10 does not work buy next disks.

 

On your machine though i would check out some of the things i said if you have not already created your disks and your alt + f10 does not work, you have not been messing with your partitions and you can not create the disks by loading the erecovery management program i would be getting on the phone to acer and asking for new free disks