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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
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Sheer BT incompetence


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To save time, here is a copy of my emailed complaint to BT -

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

I'm afraid that recent events have left me with no option but to lodge a formal complaint with regards to my appalling service thus far. At the beginning of July 08, I made a call to you to arrange the installation of a new line at my new apartment. I received a welcome letter and engineer visit date / time within the same for 11 July between 8-1pm. I also received a text confirmation of the same, which was great.

 

As it was a weekday, I obviously booked the morning off work to attend. On the 11th I waited until 1pm before ringing you to ask where the engineer was. After some time, the operative said that the engineer hadn't needed to visit as it was an external connection, and that the line would go live later that evening. This again was fine. However, when I tried the line, it was clearly dead. I tried several more times over that weekend, all with the same result. I rang you back to find out what the problem was, only to be told that another engineer had to be sent out, this time the date given was 17th July between 1pm and 6pm. A text duly arrived to confirm this. Again, this was important enough to book time off work, so waited until 2pm today before ringing you to make sure the engineer was coming. It was only then was I told that there was yet another problem, and that an engineer had been rebooked for July 22nd???

 

This is quite frankly not acceptable and am now asking for an emergency engineer visit, plus compensation for 2 half days needlessly booked off work (actually 3 if you count the 22nd July).

 

Please respond asap. Regards, Hullabaloo27.

Edited by Hullabaloo27

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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Their first response (basically offering me a paltry £10 per half day booked off work!!!) :lol::lol:

 

 

 

Dear Hullabaloo27,

 

Thank you for your e-mail dated 17/7/08 about your BT Service.

 

I am very sorry to know about the difficulties you have experienced. Without doubt, this is not the standard of service BT aims to provide. BT is very much aware of our commitment to provide first class customer service and I very much regret that we have failed you, a valued customer on this occasion.

 

Following this I feel I must appologise for the poor level of service that you have recently been subjected to through your contact with BT. Please be assured that this is definitely not the level of service that BT as a company aims to provide for our customers.

 

I have seen that this is an ongoing issue and still it is not resolve. I would like to provide you a detailed information about your complaint:

 

I have checked your account details and would like to inform you that:

 

The order is in progress and your line is scheduled to be active on 22/07/2008.

 

The appointment for an engineer is also booked for the same day. You will also get a confirmation for that same.

 

I can confirm that there is no problem with the order and would like to confirm the installation address :

 

************

 

Now, as you have missed two appointments, I have provided you a credit of £10 for each missed appointment for the inconvenience caused to you as a goodwill gesture. It will be reflected in your future bill.

 

Once again, I appologise for the inconvenience caused to you and assure you of better service in future. If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us again via e-mail.

 

Thank you for contacting BT.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Ranjeet

eContact Customer Service

Ref: *********

 

Basically a bog standard generic reply from India, with an awful 'compensation' amount shoved on the bottom :rolleyes:

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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My reply (apologies if I've lost anyone already :lol: ):

 

Dear Ranjeet,

 

Many thanks for your reply, and apologies for having to leave the call earlier as I was in work, and as you're aware, I've missed enough work of late due to this topic. The response you sent below was appreciated, however the top half did indeed seem to be something of a generic customer complaint response.

 

I find the offer of only £10 per missed appointment to be derogatory, bearing in mind the 3 full half days I have now had to book off work to attend the appointments, 2 of which were not even fulfilled by your engineers. Whilst I do not expect full salary recompense, I'm certainly not aware of any legal jobs that pay just £20 per day!!!

 

I shall leave it to you to improve this offer, to a far more reasonable sum for my inconvenience and usage of 1.5 days annual leave.

 

Kind regards

 

Hullabaloo27

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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Their reply:

 

Dear Hullabaloo27,

 

Thank you for your e-mail dated 23/7/08 about the compensation amount.

 

I am sorry for problem you have been facing regarding the compensation amount for missing appointment.

 

In response to your E mail, I have checked your account details and found that your line has been activated and you have set up Monthly payment plan for £41.00, however I have seen that your first appointment was booked for 17/07/2008 which engineer did not turned up to your property to install the line.

 

Furthermore, I would like to inform you that your line activation date was 22/07/2008 and you line is already installed. I understand that you are not satisfied with the BT services and the compensation amount for £10.00 as you have been informed in your previous response, However I would like to inform you that BT cannot give you the compensation amount more then £10.00 because this amount is for one month line rental for your option and we cannot provide more then that amount.

 

I understand that you have waisted the whole day and the half of the day, however according to the BT policy we cannot give you the more then £10.00 compensation.

 

Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience you may have been caused and my thanks for your patience and co-operation in this matter.

 

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us again via e-mail.

 

Thank you for contacting BT.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

£10 per half day!!! :eek:

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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Dear Miss ******,

 

I'm afraid to say that your records are clearly incorrect as I have your own letters in front of me (and the two associated texts on mobile phone and emailed to myself for storage) stating that the first appointment was 11th July 2008 between 8am-1pm, and this was the first half day I booked off.

 

The second was the 17th July 2008 between 1pm and 6pm, and finally the 3rd appointment, which was attended by your engineer, was 22nd July 2008 between 1pm-6pm. The fact that your records do not even reflect the most basic of information does not instill great confidence in me, that you actually know what has happened. You also contradict yourself by stating that the max amount of commission is £10, when you've already offered me a paltry £20. It is with this in mind, that I urge you to reconsider your offer of compensation.

 

Should this not be acceptable, then I will have no option but to escalate this matter still further to your regulatory body, OFTEL.

 

Regards

 

Hulla

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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Dear Hulla,

 

Thank you for your E-mail dated 24/7/08 about your BT Account.

 

I am sorry for the inconvenience caused to you with BT.

 

I have checked your account and would like to confirm you that as per our records line has been activated on 17/07/2008. I am sorry if the engineer missed your appointment and connected your lines later.

 

Furthermore, I would like to confirm you that you have been provided with the compensation of £20 on 21/07/2008 for the inconvenience caused to you. This compensation of £20 is going to reflect in next bill which is going to generate on 22/10/2008.

 

Once again, I am sorry for the inconvenience caused to you and for the incorrect information given to you in the previous mail regarding the compensation.

 

If you have further queries please do not hesitate to contact me again via E-mail.

 

Thank you for contacting BT.

 

Yours sincerely,

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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Ok, ok last one for now!!! ;)

 

Dear ********

 

I write to you to offer you a final opportunity to reimburse me with an appropriate amount for my 1.5 days of annual leave used to get my BT line connected, despite the first two half days being completely unnecessary as your engineer did not bother to turn up, nor did I receive prior notification of this (as laid out in my previous email correspondence attached below).

 

I also point your attention to the following BT connection charge offer, which you have not yet applied to my account:

 

Notices 2008 25/08 Calling Plans - Line Connection Special Offer

 

Can you please attend to both of the issue above immediately, or I will have no option but to escalate this to OFTEL and a higher level within your own organisation.

 

Sent yesterday. I'd be happy with the connection charge refunded and a few other titbits if I'm honest. The refund of the connection charge should be ok, as it now forms a part of their new campaign, which was unfortunately not explained to me at the time :x

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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Well there's at least one mistake in your e-mail! Oftel don't exist! It's been Ofcom for the past several years!

 

They also don't deal with these sorts of consumer complaints, you have to either go through the relevant company complaints procedure and then complain to their ADR scheme [for BT it's Otelo I believe] or issue court proceedings after sending them a letter as such.

 

Has the line now been connected? How many half days/days did you miss off work? Can you prove how much you earn per hour [after taxes] and did you lose this when you took off, or did the company waive it?

 

What I suggest doing is writing a letter both to the BT complaints department and their registered office threatening legal action if they don't satisfactorily settle your complaints within 14 days.

 

Knowing BT they won't respond at all. Then after 14 days you've got to decide if to wait 12 weeks - yes, 12 weeks - or till they provide a deadlock letter - whichever is sooner, likely to be 12 weeks - and then complain to the ADR scheme or issue court action to recover your lost income and any other claims plus interest.

 

I personally would take the latter.

 

What by the way do you work as? You state in your e-mail that it's in the legal field.

 

I also suggest printing that link now and keeping it. Also if you have a print to PDF program [such as PrimoPDF which is free] print it to a PDF and keep that on your computer, as it is likely it will be gone by the time your claim goes to court.

 

Always send all letters by special delivery as opposed as to recorded delivery which is not guaranteed.

 

If you need any help with the letters or court action, I would be happy to try and help you through this forum.

 

Please keep us posted.

 

Good Luck

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:!: All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional. :!:

 

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Many thanks for a very quick response and your input LP!! Firstly, yes, I have now printed that to Primo pdf.

 

Secondly, the BT line was operational as of the 22nd July and lastly, my profession is not in the legal field, although I can see from where you might have assumed that. Perhaps it could have been worded slightly better, but i meant that I wasn't aware of a job that could 'legally' pay only £20 per day, assuming an 8 hour day!!

 

As for OFTEL, I originally typed OFCOM, but saw OFTEL on here somewhere and immediately assumed I must have it wrong!! Don't believe everything you read eh??

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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Secondly, the BT line was operational as of the 22nd July and lastly, my profession is not in the legal field, although I can see from where you might have assumed that. Perhaps it could have been worded slightly better, but i meant that I wasn't aware of a job that could 'legally' pay only £20 per day, assuming an 8 hour day!!

Understood.

How many half days/days did you miss off work?

Can you prove how much you earn per hour [after taxes] and did you lose this when you took off, or did the company waive it?

As for OFTEL, I originally typed OFCOM, but saw OFTEL on here somewhere and immediately assumed I must have it wrong!! Don't believe everything you read eh??

Always go to the relevant website first, before assuming they exist and you can complain to them. This isn't really relevant because they don't deal with consumer complaints anyway!

 

So what are you doing next? I think that if you can prove your income and did lose income for taking the days off, you claim that against them. You can only claim for the additional days, as you had agreed to take one half day, so anything above that you can claim, claiming that too will be seen as unreasonable.

 

Oh, by the way, writing to India that you're unaware of any job that legally pays £10 or £20 for half a day's work, isn't too smart. They get paid that in a month if they're lucky!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:!: All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional. :!:

 

:-) If you feel my post has been helpful, please click my scales. :-)

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Understood.

How many half days/days did you miss off work?

Can you prove how much you earn per hour [after taxes] and did you lose this when you took off, or did the company waive it?

 

Yes, I can prove this if and when required.

 

Always go to the relevant website first, before assuming they exist and you can complain to them. This isn't really relevant because they don't deal with consumer complaints anyway!

 

Agreed. Judging by the grammar and spelling however, I'm not sure they even read the complaints themselves.

 

So what are you doing next? I think that if you can prove your income and did lose income for taking the days off, you claim that against them. You can only claim for the additional days, as you had agreed to take one half day, so anything above that you can claim, claiming that too will be seen as unreasonable.

 

I am now awaiting their response to the last email in the thread, which included the new BT pricing structure. As said previously, I'd be happy with the deduction of the connex charge as this should have already been offered, plus say a month 's free line rental / calls as a gesture for the time off.

 

Oh, by the way, writing to India that you're unaware of any job that legally pays £10 or £20 for half a day's work, isn't too smart. They get paid that in a month if they're lucky!

 

That was an assumption on my part, based on all of the correspondence via email and phone. It could just as easily be that they were all in London.

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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Hmmm... Just a thaught, you may wanna hint that you want to know your cancelation rights... that may get things moving a little faster!

If in doubt, contact a qualified insured legal professional (or my wife... she knows EVERYTHING)

 

Or send a cheque or postal order payable to Reclaim the Right Ltd.

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Hulla: I don't understand you. Why are you willing to go for such a little recompense? You went through 2 wasted days at home! It's people like you that I don't understand - no offence meant. Stand up for your rights! We're meant to be in a democratic country, where you are allowed to do this and not get walked all over!

 

So, I would recommend not waiting for their response and writing a new letter and sending it by special delivery to them and suing them for your losses! Be strong! Fight British Trouble!

 

Hmmm... Just a thaught, you may wanna hint that you want to know your cancelation rights... that may get things moving a little faster!

 

Maybe, but my experience with British Trouble tells me they couldn't care less. They lost two business lines with big spends from me and still haven't apologized. I told them if I received an apology within 28 days from the head office after everything was rectified I'd consider going back and? Nada, Nil, Zilch....!

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:!: All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional. :!:

 

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The thing is the line is now installed... the work for the initial set up fee of £124.99 has been done, and the contract is probably still within cancelation period. If hula cancels and sets up with a diferent provider, there is a stopped line there for them to start (with no connection fee)!

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The thing is the line is now installed... the work for the initial set up fee of £124.99 has been done, and the contract is probably still within cancelation period. If hula cancels and sets up with a diferent provider, there is a stopped line there for them to start (with no connection fee)!

 

Yeah, why not? Hula?

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:!: All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional. :!:

 

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Can I just clarify, did you take the time off as paid holiday leave, or was it unpaid?

 

If it was paid, you have no cause of action because you haven't suffered financial loss.

 

SV

 

I asked that in my post as well. However, despite the fact that I have agreed with seftonview previously and respect his opinion, I have to disagree here.

 

Just because leave was taken out of holiday allocation, rather than unpaid, doesn't mean the OP would not have suffered financial loss. Those days could have been better spent in work, and had the OP known that British Trouble weren't showing he wouldn't have taken off.

 

Also, I disagree that even if you were right this would affect the "cause of action" as the cause of action is British Trouble's negligence. It may affect the actual claim, but the cause of action still remains.

 

However, if the OP's employer gave him off without deducting it from holiday allowance, then the OP would have suffered no financial loss and could not claim it via the courts, thus the best route would be compensation through the ADR scheme, together with a simultaneous claim through the courts for the unpaid discount on the connection charge.

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:!: All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional. :!:

 

:-) If you feel my post has been helpful, please click my scales. :-)

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I asked that in my post as well. However, despite the fact that I have agreed with seftonview previously and respect his opinion, I have to disagree here.

 

Just because leave was taken out of holiday allocation, rather than unpaid, doesn't mean the OP would not have suffered financial loss. Those days could have been better spent in work, and had the OP known that British Trouble weren't showing he wouldn't have taken off.

 

If he was paid by his employer, what financial loss could the OP have suffered?

 

Also, I disagree that even if you were right this would affect the "cause of action" as the cause of action is British Trouble's negligence. It may affect the actual claim, but the cause of action still remains.

 

'Cause of action' and 'claim' are analogous terms. What do you mean by the third sentence? I can't fathom what point your trying to make vis a vis "the actual claim".

 

Negligence hasn't been alleged, and would not be a relevant tort to argue under the circumstances; there was no duty of care owed by BT to the OP.

 

However, if the OP's employer gave him off without deducting it from holiday allowance, then the OP would have suffered no financial loss and could not claim it via the courts, thus the best route would be compensation through the ADR scheme, together with a simultaneous claim through the courts for the unpaid discount on the connection charge.

 

The ADR scheme would not in my opinion make any award in excess of what has been offered; or if it did it would unlikely be a sum of significant brevity to make going through the ADR process beneficial or worthwhile to the OP. £20 seems reasonable in all the circumstances, if there was no financial loss.

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If he was paid by his employer, what financial loss could the OP have suffered?

This is only relevant to if it was paid holiday. If the OP took holiday days for those days, then he would have less holiday days to take when he wants a holiday. This in my opinion - and in previous cases of mine and colleagues before the courts - is a financial loss.

Obviously if the OP's employer didn't take those days out of the OP's holiday allowance and didn't charge the OP, but gave him off out of goodwill he would not have incurred financial loss and wouldn't have a claim for this issue.

 

'Cause of action' and 'claim' are analogous terms. What do you mean by the third sentence? I can't fathom what point your trying to make vis a vis "the actual claim".

I admit, I could have been clearer. "Cause of action" is the underlying problem that caused the action, it is not the monetary claim. The monetary claim arises out of the cause of action. If the cause of action is extinguished no monetary claim can be made, however if the cause of action remains, just one specific monetary claim is removed, there still may be what to claim.

The cause of action is still there, the events still happened. The question is if monetary loss arose out of that cause of action.

 

Negligence hasn't been alleged, and would not be a relevant tort to argue under the circumstances; there was no duty of care owed by BT to the OP.

Negligence can be claimed also in cases where there is no "duty of care" as such. True, negligence hasn't been alleged, but that's what I would call this.

 

The ADR scheme would not in my opinion make any award in excess of what has been offered; or if it did it would unlikely be a sum of significant brevity to make going through the ADR process beneficial or worthwhile to the OP. £20 seems reasonable in all the circumstances, if there was no financial loss.

 

You are of course entitled to your opinion, I completely and utterly disagree. Otelo quite often gives awards of £50-£100 at least for similar cases. £20 is adding insult to injury.

 

From your own threads, I'm sure you've learned that it's hard to assist an OP without "stepping into their shoes" so too speak. The aggravation the OP would have suffered from this issue, would be hard to imagine unless you have been through similar situations.

 

You are now behaving just like posters in some of your threads have behaved, so I request of you, seftonview, to act just the way you would want those same posters to behave. What goes around comes around.

 

The other advantage of taking a case to Otelo is that BT would have to pay a case fee, of, I believe, £50. That combined with compensation, reduction in connection charge and hopefully loss of customer, would result in a definite loss for British Trouble on the OP - which I'm sure we'd all be happy to see.

 

If however the OP has suffered financial loss in the days off work, then court action - in my opinion - would be more appropriate, and would also cause British Trouble to make a loss out of the OP.

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This is only relevant to if it was paid holiday. If the OP took holiday days for those days, then he would have less holiday days to take when he wants a holiday. This in my opinion - and in previous cases of mine and colleagues before the courts - is a financial loss.

 

Having less holidays isn't a financial loss - there is no monetary detriment. I'm not disputing that judgement may have been made in some cases that it should be reimbursed, but I'd imagine that to be under specific circumstances where there was aggravation. Can you give any more information on the particulars of these claims, and the judgements made?

 

I admit, I could have been clearer. "Cause of action" is the underlying problem that caused the action, it is not the monetary claim. The monetary claim arises out of the cause of action. If the cause of action is extinguished no monetary claim can be made, however if the cause of action remains, just one specific monetary claim is removed, there still may be what to claim.

The cause of action is still there, the events still happened. The question is if monetary loss arose out of that cause of action.

 

Thanks for explaining a little more clearly what you were trying to demonstrate :)

 

 

Negligence can be claimed also in cases where there is no "duty of care" as such. True, negligence hasn't been alleged, but that's what I would call this.

 

There is a three rung test under the tort of negligence:

1. is there a duty of care between the parties? - if so then

2. has there been a breach of that duty of care? - if so then

3. is it reasonably forseeable that this breach could cause the loss experienced?

 

I would hold that a simple contract, which ultimately this is, does not amount to a duty of care in this context.

 

 

You are of course entitled to your opinion, I completely and utterly disagree. Otelo quite often gives awards of £50-£100 at least for similar cases. £20 is adding insult to injury.

 

I personally feel, in all the circumstances, that £20 is reasonable. Whilst this has been an inconvenience and an annoyance, it was only so in passing. I'd point out that I did state:

 

The ADR scheme would not in my opinion make any award in excess of what has been offered; or if it did it would unlikely be a sum of significant brevity to make going through the ADR process beneficial or worthwhile to the OP.

 

For a dispute of this nature, my take on things would be to consider is the act of going through dispute resolution worth it for in the region of £30, which is potentially around what I stand to gain?

 

From your own threads, I'm sure you've learned that it's hard to assist an OP without "stepping into their shoes" so too speak. The aggravation the OP would have suffered from this issue, would be hard to imagine unless you have been through similar situations.

 

I have been in similar situations, and I really can empathise with how much of a pain in the backside it can be. However, in the grand scheme of things, it won't really achieve much to challenge this. There has been no criminality, or mailicious intent, or infringement of civil liberties. With some disputes I think there comes a point where you have to think, is this worth wasting any more of my own time?

 

You are now behaving just like posters in some of your threads have behaved, so I request of you, seftonview, to act just the way you would want those same posters to behave. What goes around comes around.

 

I'd disagree. The threads to which you refer involved certain forum users making wild assumptions, trying to force their own opinions (without merit or citation) on others, and behaving in a childlike manner.

 

What I have done is offered my own opinion on the situation as I see it, and as my experience and knowledge as a consumer and a litigator have led me.

 

The other advantage of taking a case to Otelo is that BT would have to pay a case fee, of, I believe, £50. That combined with compensation, reduction in connection charge and hopefully loss of customer, would result in a definite loss for British Trouble on the OP - which I'm sure we'd all be happy to see.

 

It will result in a loss to BT, but not one of such significant or brevity to make them ensure they get there backsides in gear in the future.

 

If however the OP has suffered financial loss in the days off work, then court action - in my opinion - would be more appropriate, and would also cause British Trouble to make a loss out of the OP.

 

If he has, which as a contentious issue hasn't yet been clarified, I agree whole-heartedly that the OP should move in the direction of a Court claim.

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A startling amount of views and opinions posted in reply to my OP, so thanks to all that contributed. To try to clarify my position somewhat, my major issue concerns BT's obvious lack of concern that one of their customers has now lost 2 additional half days of leave, as their engineer has not turned up, despite two forms of notification on each occasion. It was the contempt with which they treated my initial complaint that concerned me most as it shows an inherent lack of understanding of their customer, or indeed of their own procedures.

 

I shall look at the info provided in more depth shortly, which should also give BT enough time to reply to my latest correspondence. I'm not trying to bring the company down!!! Simply to highlight that their behaviour on this occasion has been wholly unacceptable.

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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BT response:

Dear Hullabaloo27,

 

Thank you for your E-mail dated 3/9/08 about the refund.

 

I am sorry to hear of the difficulties you have experienced with BT regarding the refund due to no engineer visit.

 

I can understand your concerns regarding this matter as you were promised that the refund will be given to you for the problems you have faced while activation of BT line but after repeated contact no action is taken to resolve your matter.

 

I can confirm you that the refund of £20.00 is already approved on your account and I assure you that it will be adjusted in your next bill. I assure you that you will get the best services available in the telecom industry in future. If you have any other concerns please revert to me at the earliest.

 

Once again please accept my apologies for the problems you have experienced with BT recently.

 

Thank you for contacting BT.

 

Firstly, this email does not make any physical or grammatical sense. Secondly, there is no mention of their own discount for the connection.

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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As I said, if you are still in your cancelation period, cancel the order. Phone lines have 3 options when setting them up. Active, stopped and ceased. An active line is one in use by someone, a stopped line is one that was active but has been stopped (the analogy I'd make is this was turned off like flicking a switch) and a ceased line is one that is unplugged from the main server so needs a BT engineer visit. You had a ceased line, ordered the line, and BT have sent the engineer to the exchange to connect you. Now you have an active line. If you cancel this you will have a stopped line, and you can go with any other telecom provider with no connection fee (some may charge you if they use a different server but that would only be £30ish)

If in doubt, contact a qualified insured legal professional (or my wife... she knows EVERYTHING)

 

Or send a cheque or postal order payable to Reclaim the Right Ltd.

to

923 Finchley Road London NW11 7PE

 

 

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Many thanks, but it is actually a new line i.e. new as in a new development, phone sockets in but line had never been connected.

 

p.s. I'm well past the cancellation period if its the standard 14 days, will have to check

 

Update: Just checked and you can only cancel the order PRIOR to your activation.

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.

William Shakespeare

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