AMEX and RMA

[rory1968]

Hi,I will try to explain situation as clearly as possible,so,bear with me.I have been with AMEX since Jan 2005 and had the odd few late payments.I then had over a year of regular payments and they reduced my interest rate.About 3 months aga i ot a letter saying they were reducing my limit to £6K.The balance was about £5900 at the time.I had some cash flow problems,so,missed a couple of payments.At the end of June I send them payment to bring account up to date and a letter explaining previous financial difficulties.I thought no more about it until mid July when I stated to get phone calls from RMA.I have not returned any of their calls as I did not know who they were.

At the weekend I went to pay my AMEX online and it said card cancelled.I could not make a payment and the previous payment I sent was not logged against the account.

I then received a letter from Thames solicitors saying AMEX had transferred account to RMA and I needed to phone RMA within 7 days to avoid legal action.

 

What should I do?I am happy to pay debt,but,after reading the forum about RMA;I know I can't afford to pay large installments.I noticed that the debt online was £6400,but,on the legal letter was £7100.

 

Please help me!

[saintly_1]

Thread moved to AMEX forum

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Rory1968!

 

Welcome to CAG.

 

In your position, I would take a step back, take a deep breath, and perhaps start to look at this from your own point of view rather than theirs.

 

The alleged Account has been Canelled, or so they say, so it sounds like they have burned all the bridges as far as you ever going back to using that Card again. However, they are still trying to enforce this, so there has to be an Agreement somewhere that allows them to do this, i.e. Amex and RMA and anyone else that comes onto the scene.

 

Right, so I'd start by taking stock of the true position so that you can regain some control over this.

 

(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 s78(1) Request

 

Firstly, you need to see what Agreement they have that binds you to this Alleged Debt. I'd therefore send them a Consumer Credit Act 1974 Statutory Request to see a true Copy of your Properly Executed Consumer Credit Agreement.

 

The Fee for this is just £1 (use Postal Orders from now on, as they don't need your Signature, see below for why this is important), and they have Twelve Working Days to Respond. A suitable Letter is Letter N below:

 

Creditors and DCAs - Letter Templates & Budget Planner

 

I'm assuming it is a Credit Card, as you mentioned Interest Rates and Credit Limits, in this case, s78(1) is correct. You can read all about the Consumer Credit Act 1974 here:

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Just click on any of the Sections in the above Link, such as Section 78 to read what s78(1) is all about.

 

(2) Data Subject Access Request

 

Now, gather all of your Statements, so that you can work out what, exactly, you owe, and if there are any Unlawful Charges...sounds like you have a few I'd say.

 

If you don't have any Statements, or if any are missing, then I'd invest £10 and send Amex a Data Subject Access Request. They have 40 Calendar Days to respond to that. A suitable Letter is here:

 

1. Data Protection Act, Subject Access Request letter - List of charges

 

Have a read around the Forums first, as you may like to make the SAR a hard hitting one, that asks them to leave no stone unturned in seeking out any and all Data that relates to you.

 

You can Sign Letters to Amex but, when you do so, Sign it in such a way that your Signature cannot be easily copied and add some extras that you would not normally do, so you can tell if you see this Signature again (an extra Dot or two, that sort of thing).

 

One way to make it hard to Copy is to Sign over a Pattern, i.e.

 

AmexSucksAmexSucksAmexSucks

RMASucksRMASucksRMASucksRMA

AmexSucksAmexSucksAmexSucks

 

Never Sign a Letter to a Debt Collecting Agency (DCA), as they cannot be trusted with it. Always Print your name when writing to any of those fine people.

 

You don't want a nice crisp copy of your Signature falling into the wrong hands, to later appear on a bogus Agreement or Letter!

 

(3) Some Beancounting

 

Now go through all of your figures, and start to outline how much you spent, how much you Paid back, how much Interest you were charged, plus how many unlawful charges were applied.

 

Soon, you may see that the Debt you thought you owed, may not be quite as simple as you first thought. You may even find that you have Spent less than you have Paid back, and the remaining Balance is largely made up of the sum total of their Interest and Charges.

 

Still want to Pay them in full?

 

I thought not!

 

So, it's vital that you now establish what you really do owe, and establish what Right they have to make you Pay it. If it's all Interest and Charges, and they fail to come up with an Enforceable Agreement, then your fight-back can begin. Likewise, even if they do have an Enforceable Agreement, you must see if you can claim back, or Counter-Claim back any Unlawful Charges, and Interest on them too!

 

(4) Keep Things in Writing

 

Right, from now on, do not admit anything, and KEEP EVERYTHING IN WRITING.

 

Don't speak to any of them via Telephone, ever.

 

(5) Harassment

 

If they are Calling you, then start Logging all Calls by Time/Date, and if you happen to get caught by them, then just get every Caller's Full Name and hang up. Don't speak to them apart from this, and/or just don't answer the Telephone if you prefer.

 

If they are bothering you, then this is Harassment, and the more evidence you can build up against them, the better. There may be scope to Counter-Claim against them.

 

If they are really annoying, then start thinking about Recording Calls.

 

(6) Some Light Bedtime Reading

 

Next, get reading on CAG (this will take up lots of your Bedtime), and take a look at my Thread below:

 

Trigger Happy Amex

 

That has many Links to some of the Amex Threads that are dotted around CAG. Read them all, and you will start to see what sort of people you are up against.

 

I think that is enough to get you going!

 

Good luck with your battle. It won't be over quickly, but if you run through the above steps, you should start to get some control back.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[rory1968]

Thanks BRW, I will start off the process today.The bit I am worried about is my employer provides me with a corporate card and when reading some other threads it seems that they cancel one they cancel the rest.The corporate card still works,but,recently when buying some train tickets,the guy at the station was asked to phone them.They told him it was a routine check and authorised payment.All my corporate bills are paid automatically by my company.If I push back;do you think they will cancel my corporate card?The corporate card does not appear on any credit files.Thanks for you help so far.

Edited August 6, 2008 by rory1968

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Rory1968!

 

I push back do you think they will cancel my...?

 

Well, you can only trust a banker about as far as you can throw one, so never rule anything out.

 

However, the recent Check could well have been Routine, I wouldn't read too much into it. It could just be that you did something outside of your usual Spending Pattern, so their system burped up a check.

 

The fact that it is Paid by your people should mean it's safe.

 

However, I've kept this Reply general, so perhaps now might be a good time to go back and edit your last Post #4 to remove any Reference to you-know-what-Card!

 

That way, if they figure out who you are from this Thread, they won't see anything else to stimulate their little vindictive imaginations!

 

In summary, I can't see a cross-over. It's just one of those things you need not worry about until something happens. I can't see that it will.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[rory1968]

Thanks BRW,

have sent off CCA letter via recorded delivery to RMA and amex.I also received a hand written card in the post from an individual at RMA saying he would be calling between 8am and 9pm this Friday or possibly Saturday.I got a printed one last week saying I would get a call last Thursday,but,nothing.Is this likely to be the same tactic(most probably means a phone call)?

I did add to the bottom of the CCA letter that I would only communicate with them via post from now on.I asked them not to contact me by phone or in person.

Should this be ok?or do I need to do anything else?

This is doing my head in!

Thanks again

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Rory1968!

 

I also received a hand written card in the post from an individual at RMA saying he would be calling between 8am and 9pm this Friday or possibly Saturday.I got a printed one last week saying I would get a call last Thursday,but,nothing.Is this likely to be the same tactic(most probably means a phone call)?

 

It's probably just a Threat Tactic, as the ones who make visits, tend to visit, whereas the ones who just make Threats to visit, tend to just make Threats.

 

However, it is not nice to be sent such Harassing nonsense so, just in case they are serious, send them something along these lines:

 

In the event that you intend to escalate the above Harassment to include Doorstep calls by your Employees or your Agents, please be advised that under the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) Rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have absolutely no wish to make an appointment with you. There is no need, as written communication is quite acceptable in Law.

 

Please note, there is only an implied license under Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore, take note that I revoke license under Common Law for your Employees, or your Agents or your Representatives to visit me at my property and, if you do so, then you will be liable to Damages for a Tort of Trespass and Civil Action will be taken.

 

Send that to anyone that pops up on your scope demaning Payments. I tend to add it to any Letter where I can squeeze it in, just in case. This means they are in the wrong the moment their agent steps onto your land or property.

 

Also, keep a copy of this somewhere handy by the Door, all ready to shove under the bugle of anyone annoying enough to pitch up...then slam the Door! No need to say anything to them, well, I can think of a couple of words, but I'll just get CAG-Botted again (an edited Post for typing rooooood words)!

 

BTW, keep everything they ever send you, including the Envelopes, as they may help to show if they have been creatively back-dating Letters. I'm working on those little Orange Barcodes that Royal Mail adds, as I have a feeling they contain a Date! When I can read these Barcodes, lots and lots of Envelopes could reveal Dates that the bankers never thought would come back to catch them out!

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[rory1968]

Thanks for advice

[rory1968]

Only one phone call since I asked them to communicate with me via post,so,at least the phone calls have stopped.Just received CCA,so,will post for advice,thanks

[rory1968]

Here is a link to CCA from AMEX: http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd341/toyota_yaris/CIMG0335.jpg

 

I would be grateful if someone could advise me on its validity?and if it is valid what the best course of action to take would be,thanks in advance,Rory

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Rory1968!

 

Was this taken out in around Jan 2005 as you say above, or was it earlier?

 

It looks like something they would send to get you to Sign, but towards the Top Right, it says Interactive Signature Form.

 

I'm asking this, as this may suggest it was an on-line Application.

 

That's my main concern, but the Form seems to be a Paper/Written Agreement, so does not look like something you completed with a few clicks of a Mouse.

 

If it is a Written Agreement, then what they have sent so far has no sign of any Prescribed Terms.

 

Did they send anything else, i.e. anything on the Reverse, or a 2nd Page or Terms and Conditions?

 

Cheers,

BRW

[rory1968]

Hello Rory1968!

 

Was this taken out in around Jan 2005 as you say above, or was it earlier?

 

It looks like something they would send to get you to Sign, but towards the Top Right, it says Interactive Signature Form.

 

I'm asking this, as this may suggest it was an on-line Application.

 

That's my main concern, but the Form seems to be a Paper/Written Agreement, so does not look like something you completed with a few clicks of a Mouse.

 

If it is a Written Agreement, then what they have sent so far has no sign of any Prescribed Terms.

 

Did they send anything else, i.e. anything on the Reverse, or a 2nd Page or Terms and Conditions?

 

Cheers,

BRW

Hi BRM,

I did apply on-line and then I must have got the form above in the post.They sent me some terms and conditions with the CCA request.They were enclosed with the form.I took this out in early 2005,

thanks,Rory

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Rory!

 

In that case, I think you would be wise to send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to Amex along with the Statutory Fee of £10 (Postal Order is best).

 

A S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) is becoming the best thing to use these days, as they should send a full Copy of the Agreement via the SAR.

 

This should help to pin down exactly what they do have, as a CCA Request response is being so diluted these days. The bankers seem to be getting away with sending almost any old rubbish in response to a CCA Request.

 

I'd hit them with a very hard hitting SAR, i.e. ask for absolutely everything they have including the Kitchen Sink if it has your name anywhere near it!

 

Call Logs, Transcripts of Calls, copies of all correspondence, copies of emails, copies of Statements, copies of anything that mentions you or that can identify you by name, address, old address, postcode, telephone numbers...anything!

 

If you check around on CAG, you'll find the basic SAR Letter, but others have added to this to spell out that you want everything they have.

 

Not that you'll get everything, but do ask for it. At least then if they produce something later, they will need to explain where that came from and why it was not in your SAR.

 

This may confirm if all they have is a single sided Copy of the alleged Agreement. IOW, no Prescribed Terms. Likewise, it may show if it's just a Copy and not the real Original thing.

 

To enforce a Written Agreement in Court, they will need the Original, see:

 

CPR Practice Direction 16 7.3

 

7.3 Where a claim is based upon a written agreement:

 

(1) a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing, and

 

(2) any general conditions of sale incorporated in the contract should also be attached (but where the contract is or the documents constituting the agreement are bulky this practice direction is complied with by attaching or serving only the relevant parts of the contract or documents).

 

The SAR should also reveal if they have anything that was completed on-line that they could argue contained Prescribed Terms. I doubt that, otherwise why did they send you a Paper Agreement to Sign?

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[rory1968]

Got a letter from RMA about 2 weeks ago saying they were willing to offer a discount if I settled.I did not respond to the letter.I was just going to send an SAR letter this weekend to check where i am with AMEX.

Today,I received a statutory demand letter from their solicitors.What should I do?I have not got the money to pay them,but,don't want to lose my house.Please,please help me with regard to the best course of action.Thanks,Rory

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Rory!

 

A Statutory Demand is nasty little trick that Amex, in particular, are very fond of.

 

However, like all things when it comes to bankers, just take a deep breath, exhale slowly, and then set about the task of dealing with this in a cold and clinical fashion. Things are never as bad as all that once you get your teeth into the problem.

 

Have a read of this Thread ASAP:

 

Statutory Demands and Service By Post

 

It could be possible that this is an otiose Threat that they have no intention of pressing ahead with. Indeed, even if they do, there could be money in this for you. Judges are getting very tired of bankers and DCAs using their Courts as an extension of banking Harassment tactics.

 

You can get Costs, and these can add up. They may even Buy your Christmas Tree and Turkey for you! It could be a little Christmas Present from Amex if you handle this well.

 

Look around CAG, as there are many Threads that cover how to handle a Statutory Demand (SD).

 

It must be dealt with, one way or another. You must also move swiftly, now that they have done the dirty on you.

 

You must now do some spade work, I regret, and read as many CAG SD Threads as you can. This Weekend would be good, don't put it off any longer than that.

 

On a brighter note, I think you will soon get a handle on what this is about. Then you can decide what to do. Ask questions, if I can't help, I'm sure many others will gladly join in to give you good advice.

 

Keep your chin up, and don't let this get you down. It is a Threat, all they want is to force you into Paying them. Remember they'll use every nasty little trick they can until you show them you are not someone that they can mess around.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[rory1968]

Hi,

Have been looking at SD info on the site,and it looks as if this SD is the business.I had 2 phone calls from the solictor on the SD request asking me to contact them urgently.I just need to know should I ring them back?I could at a push get hold of about 80% of what AMeX say I owe,but,unsure what to do next.can't risk bankruptsy,but,this is really getting me down.any suggestions would be really appreciated,thanks,Tory

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello rory1968!

 

Whilst a Statutory Demand must be taken seriously, do read the Thread I suggested above, repeated below again for convenience:

 

Statutory Demands and Service By Post

 

One thing that appears to be missing in all of this, is a Default Notice.

 

Despite what Amex thinks it can do, it can't just Terminate your Account because it woke up one morning and thought that would be a good idea.

 

I am aware Amex have a clause in their Terms that say they can Terminate an Account without notice, but what Amex have neglected to take into account, is this is the United Kingdom, and any such Card Agreement is almost certainly Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The thing they should have organised at the very outset, is a properly executed Regulated Credit Agreement.

 

The clue is in the name. It's Regulated by the above Act. This thing...

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Note Sections 87 and 88, and especially note the heading where those Sections live:

 

Part VII Default and Termination

 

Please understand that the Act assumes that one side of the Agreement will be a Consumer. It also assumes that the other side to the Agreement will be a mega huge and sophisticated Financial Organisation which has a never ending life, as its so huge and sophisticated.

 

In other words, the Act does not give these huge and sophisticated Organisations an easy way out, because it was never imagined that they would want a way out provided the Consumer is keeping to his/her side of the Agreement.

 

However, the Act does give them a way out if, and only if, the Consumer goes pear-shaped on them and does not keep to the Agreement.

 

That get out is outlined in the above main Section, and covered by s87 and s88. These make it clear that they need to issue the Consumer with a valid Default Notice. The Notice is a warning that it's all going pear-shaped, and the Notice must say what needs to be done to remedy this.

 

They are required to get that right. The Notice must be set out in the Prescribed way, accurate in terms of the money that must be paid that has not, at that stage been paid, and it must allow you the Statutory 14 Days to remedy the position from Date of Service.

 

If you paid up what was demanded in the Default Notice, then s89 of the Act says that everything goes back to normal, as if nothing pear-shaped ever happened, the exact words being:

 

...the breach shall be treated as not having occurred.

 

However, if you ignored what was demanded in the Default Notice, only then can they Terminate and close the Account. Only then can they ask for both the Arrears you owed in the past, and the Balance you owed in the future. It's this early Payment of a sum that was otherwise only owed in the future that is the key point I'm getting at. They can only ask you to Pay that future sum if they Defaulted and Terminated lawfully.

 

Now, if Amex went ahead and Terminated your Account without sending you a valid Default Notice, then they have made a mistake. Potentially a big mistake, as this then becomes an Unlawful Rescission of Contract. There is some Case Law that suggests you can ask for Compensation, but we won't go into that just yet...well...OK...twist my arm, check this out:

 

EFFECT OF FAILURE TO DEFAULT AND TERMINATE AN AGREEMENT CORRECTLY

 

Failure of a Default or Termination Notice to be accurate not only invalidates such Notice, (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain & Co NLD 14 July 1998 ) but is an unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the Court enforcing any alleged debt, (Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, Wilson v Robertsons (London) Ltd [2006] EWCA Civ 1088, Wilson v Pawnbrokers [2005] EWCA Civ 147) but would also give the Claimant a claim for damages in the sum of £1,000. (Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119)

 

Forget what their Terms say they can do, as that part of their Terms can be disregarded because it goes against the Act...and never forget the Agreement (if one exists that is), is Regulated by the Act.

 

Please also read my Post on the following Thread, which may help to understand Default Notices and how getting them wrong can dramatically affect what the Creditor can chase you for after Unlawful Termination:

 

Consumer Credit Act Agreements

 

OK, going back to the Statutory Demand. The main task to get that set aside is to show the alleged Debt is in Dispute.

 

If you follow what I have said above, I think you have some strong arguments to show this alleged Debt is seriously in Dispute.

 

I do hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[rory1968]

Thanks BRW,

SD's are a nightmare.Westminister solicitors asked me to contact them urgently.I am not sure if I should.I have checked the royal mail website and proof of delivery is there with my signature,so,can't say it never arrived.I am just trying to draft a letter as it has to be in by tomorrow.I have had to book 2 days off work,so,as to try and sort this out.I cannot find a default notice,so,this is probably the route I will follow.

Any advice from anyone would be great

Thanks:(

[rory1968]

Hi,

well all went quite when Westminsters withdrew SD.Now passed onto AIC and StevensDrake.The usual letters,but,straight away put in a payment questionairre etc.Interestingly the amount I now owe is less than before!.AIC had one figure and Drakes another.Should I just CCA them both again?.Drakes have been much more active than Wesrminster,thanks,Rory

[cbd13]

My Amex went to RMA who were nasty, but gave up and is now with AIC.

Had a nice chat with them the other day, very pleasant. They want me to send them a CCA request, and a holding payment of £xx to prevent going to court, hmm. Well I shall CCA them but they are not getting any cash yet!

Also RMA added a fee (and on letters couldn't even add 2 numbers together correctlly ), but AIC haven't, just quote "outstanding" amount which is less than before.

 

Good luck to you!