Help Please re: CCA decision

[car2403]

I presume that’s another version of the template that you have so kindly posted? The reply from Amex regarding the above letter arrived this morning – stating that they are dealing with my “complaint”.

 

Yes, except the one that I posted points out the technical and legal flaws in their response.

 

Surely, if they do hold a signed by me document, they would have sent it wouldn’t they?

 

Not necessarily. Depends on how they store their documents, really - if they can find the original agreement and it is enforceable, they can then enforce the debt as though they had never even been in default of the request.

 

The more time that lapses, the less and less likely that seems though, I agree.

 

Don’t worry, neither Amex nor Credit Solutions Limited have access to my telephone number. When I moved some 18 months ago I did not have a telephone number at the time to give them, only my address. I never (thank goodness) got around to furnishing them with my new number. I find it stressful enough getting the creditor nasties (letters) without telephone harassment.

 

They can still harass you by post or coming to your door, though. Let us know if that happens.

 

Two days after Amex sent me the “it is correct and that’s all you’re getting” letter, CSL wrote again. I have totally ignored them, haven’t had anything since.

 

Is that their "final response"? If it is, you definately have a case to go to Court to have the debt declared unenforceable. If they suddenly come up with an agreement, the Court will frown on this reply as they are suggesting you aren't going to get any more from them.

[Misterzeus]

paulwlton: Thanks for your reply, as I said, I’ve only been paying a token £1, but will cease from now on until they get their act together. I agree, I would have thought that they would have sent me a signed copy if they had one too.

 

Car2403: Thanks again for your reply.

 

Should I send the template letter you have posted then or wait to see what they come up with next?

 

When I wrote the part about “it is correct and that’s all you’re getting” letter from Amex, I was sort of reading between the lines (if you see what I mean!!), the actual wording was:

 

We take pride in treating our customers with the utmost respect and I am sorry for the difficulties you have encountered recently. Please be assured that we strive for superior service, and I regret that we have disappointed you in this respect.

 

I can confirm that the information you were given was correct and regrettably, I can only reiterate the details again.

 

The statements that you have received are the validation of your debt, and the credit agreement we sent you in May agrees to the terms and conditions of the account, and is the contract between us.

 

We have fulfilled the conditions of the consumer credit act and therefore, I hope you will understand and accept our position in this matter, and begin to pay your outstanding balance.

 

I hope I have clarified this matter; however should you have any further concerns, please do not hesitate to call us on the telephone number below.

 

After that was received from Amex, I sent the letter that I posted earlier and received the following reply from Amex today:

 

I am writing to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 16 June 2008, received in this office today.

 

As you have indicated that you are dissatisfied with our initial response, your complaint has now been escalated and will be investigated further.

 

Please be assured that you will receive a response as soon as possible.

 

 

I have sent the “doorstep” letter to a few of both creditors and DCA’s alike. Most have heeded the “do not visit me” letters except Power2Contact (Citi Cards). They came to the house the first time and put a postcard half in, half out the letterbox (it wasn’t posted, this was around 5-5.30pm), less than a week later they came back and actually knocked. I told the agent to go away and that I had stipulated to his company that I will not accept doorstep visits, all communication is to be in writing only and if he didn’t leave I would call the police. Off he trundled, nothing since.

 

But as I said earlier on in this thread, I have two (as yet unresolved) complaints and a CCA request lodged with Citi cards. I was going to make a formal complaint to the OFT regarding Power2Contact’s visits, but have been feeling really low and haven’t done so, I suppose it’s too late now. This was around a month ago now I think.

 

Thank you so much for taking the trouble to help me

[Misterzeus]

Forgot to say, one of my complaints to Citi Cards was in relation to doorstep visits (before Power2Contact's visits). I explained to them that I have been medically diagnosed with PTSD (part of the reason I recieve a War pension) and that these doorstep visit threats were giving me added stress. They probably had a good laugh about that!

Edited June 21, 2008 by Misterzeus
spelling!

[citizenB]

Forgot to say, one of my complaints to Citi Cards was in relation to doorstep visits (before Power2Contact's visits). I explained to them that I have been medically diagnosed with PTSD (part of the reason I recieve a War pension) and that these doorstep visit threats were giving me added stress. They probably had a good laugh about that!

 

 

Chalkitup posted the following extract from the OFT Guidelines for someone else who has a health problem. It might be good for you to have this in your armoury so to speak.

 

"The OFT Debt Collection Guidance July 2003 (updated Dec 2006) actually states for a start....

 

2.12(B) Unfair practice would include ... visiting a debtor when it is known they are vulnerable, for example, when a doctor's certificate has been provided stating debtor is ill."

 

Perhaps you could get your GP to provide a certificate for you.

[car2403]

Should I send the template letter you have posted then or wait to see what they come up with next?

 

When I wrote the part about “it is correct and that’s all you’re getting” letter from Amex, I was sort of reading between the lines (if you see what I mean!!), the actual wording was:

 

I think the letter I've posted up a few posts ago is an apt response to their reply, yes.

 

You can always follow it up with the other one once you get the, sadly inevitable, response totally ignoring everything you've said.

[Misterzeus]

Thanks for your replies.

 

citizenB: Yes, I had read that in the OFT guidance and it could be an avenue worth pursuing. I will see how things progress and act accordingly should I deem it necessary. The Power2Contact agent got no further than stating who he was and scuttled off after I told him to go. He made no further attempt to say anything, then again that just be because I shut the door – lol!!

 

car2403: So I’ll wait and see what response I receive from Amex and if it is not favourable and they are sticking to their guns that the original CCA is sufficient (in their opinion anyway). I will then send the template letter you have given. At the very least it will tie them up in knots!

 

Thank you once again to all of you for all your help

[Misterzeus]

Hi all,

 

I have just checked my Amex file and as they have failed to produce a “valid” CCA, and their deadline (12+2 working days) expired on the 2nd June, am I correct in thinking that another 30 calendar days expires on the 2nd July?

 

I have been looking for a template letter to send them once their additional 30 days have expired but can’t find it! It’s probably just me not looking properly, but can anyone point me in the direction please?

 

I will keep it safe as Citi will be the next to get the letter, they have ignored my CCA request so far, their 12+2+30 days are up a couple of weeks later.

 

Any help appreciated as always, thank you

[citizenB]

To be honest, if they havent replied within the next 30 days, which is as you say up on the 2nd July, then I guess they arent going to. I personally wouldnt send any other reminder to them.

 

Your next step I guess would be the FOS and or Trading Standards. The letter you posted above sounds pretty much to me like it is their final response.

[babybear39]

Use this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/147392-cca-dcas-unfair-commercial.html

[Misterzeus]

Thanks for your reply citizenB.

 

I think you are right, Amex are not going to “produce” any other CCA other than what they have already sent. So, Once the 2nd July has passed then I should write to the FOS and/or Trading Standards to complain or would it be best to “let sleeping dogs lie” until they either provide a properly executed CCA or attempt to set Credit Solutions Limited on to me again?

 

After my original CCA request (sent to CSL and they passed onto Amex) was met with their first answer, CSL sent a letter, well a notice really, telling me that their client Amex had added further interest and late payment charges. Also, there was the usual mantra about calling their office regarding settlement.

 

 

Thanks for your reply babybear39.

 

Very interesting link concerning the new directive and will no doubt be of great help to me and countless others.

 

The date is for offences committed after the 26th May 2008, so I am presuming that although my original CCA request sent to CCSL dated the 15th May 2008, the directive would still be applicable?

 

Thank you again both of you for your replies. I promise as soon as I am financially able, I will make a contribution to this forum as I know that without the great help that has been given to me, I would have most definitely been “walked over” by my creditors and the even scummier DCA’s!

[babybear39]

My own understanding of the new directive is that any offence committed after it came into force, in your case if they don't supply your CCA after the further calendar month, is covered and can be reported to Trading Standards who really should start using this new legislation to prosecute!

[Misterzeus]

Thanks babybear, know what I have to do now

[ScarletPimpernel]

I've been skirmishing with Amex over 4 accounts for some time. In each case they produced, in response to CCA requests, wholly unenforceable application forms, but for months continued to maintain the pretence that they were enforceable - their failure to fulfil their threats of court action gave the lie to their position, however.

 

In relation to Amex 'file referral' fees, I challenged these because they are clearly collection fees, and because they do not conform to the requirements of the OFT Guidance, they cannot be enforced.

 

In my case, Amex appear to have given up - after using RMA/NCO (fell at first hurdle), Newmans (sent file back to Amex as soon as dispute mentioned), AIC (now tried three times, and failed each time. Compliant to FOS now in process), and Moorcroft (also gave up when dispute mentioned). Amex's behaviour changed when I told them that I was making a complaint to FOS about their flagrant disregard for the law and OFT regulations - they went from demands and threats of legal action to 'please settle' requests.

 

Had the new CPUTR been around earlier, I'd have nailed them earlier. They are persistent, but can be beaten.

[Misterzeus]

Thanks for your reply ScarletPimpernel,

 

Your reply gives me great encouragement and the confidence to keep fighting, Amex has been a royal pain in the backside from the start.

 

Amex insist that file referral fees are totally legit and within their “terms and Conditions”, did say they would waiver them on that occasion, but they never did as they and further charges are showing!

 

You are not kidding when you say they are persistent, but hey, as they are finding out – so am I!!! Perhaps I am to expect another DCA to be assigned as RMA/NCO did not suceed and CSL are not getting anywhere with me.

 

It does get you down sometimes doesn’t it? But if we fight them, it may make it that bit easier in the future for others (who get into debt through circumstances beyond their control) to be able to deal with it.

 

Thank you

[ScarletPimpernel]

In one stunning display of incompetency, Amex wrote that their fees were 'as shown in the enclosed terms and conditions'; not only did the T&C they enclosed not bear any apparent relation to any of my accounts, it didn't mention referral fees!

 

I suspect that these fees are collected from anyone foolish enough to pay them; otherwise they seem to use them as a basis for negotiation. It's rather like Gordon Broon threatening to invade Zimbabwe, then telling Mugabe that if he behaves Broon won't send the troops he hasn't got.

[Misterzeus]

Amex certainly are a joke, when I’d seen off RMA/NCO, Amex prattled on about (although I had stated time and time again that I would only communicate in writing), that they believed RMA R€solve could have been a great help to me – but those cretins just wanted me to phone them!

 

I wrote back to Amex and told them to visit the CAG and its sub forum – The Debt Collection Industry and read the many harrowing tales of how people have been treated over the telephone. I said to them that perhaps then they would understand my reluctance to speak with them.

 

I like your Gordon Broon theory – very pertinent!

[citizenB]

Mr Zeus, re their insistence on you phoning them, there is a nice letter drafted by Davefirewalker in post 128 inthe link below (I think the link will take you straight to it) It might be worth sending:lol:

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/148387-help48xxx-mbna-7.html#post1587823

[ScarletPimpernel]

Personally I wouldn't bother sending a letter about not phoning them. Their letters are simply templates, and are almost certainly sent automatically.

 

Even after I'd established a correspondence with an individual at Amex, I received, in addition to (rather poorly written) 'personal' letters, they continued to send the 'please phone us' nonsense templates as well.

[Misterzeus]

Thanks for posting that link citizenB, really appreciate your time, but all of my creditors/DCA’s have received the harassment / only communicate in writing letters and where applicable the doorstop letters. I just ignore their standard threats of what will happen to me if I don’t phone them. I use to worry constantly when those letters and lots of them arrived almost daily, now, while of course it still concerns me, I have become more hardened and don’t fret quite as much!

 

Mind you, last week I was only thinking that I don’t seem to be getting many threatograms – perhaps lots of staff are on their holidays?? The next day I received the CCJ from Northampton CC re Co-Op which I posted a thread on the legal issue forum for help.

 

 

ScarletPimpernel, yes I seem to get the same responses from Amex, their “personal” letters can be very condescending at times though! I agree, very poorly written indeed! Still, I like to think I give as good as I get thanks to the CAG and its very helpful members!!

 

Thank you both, posting on here helps to keep me sane

[Misterzeus]

Hello I am Mrs Zeus and I am posting on behalf of Misterzeus as he is now working, I hope you don’t mind. I am obviously aware of all that’s happening re the threads my DH has submitted.

 

I have a couple of queries:

 

Amex is now out of time for CCA request (12+2+30 days); the 2nd of July was the precise date. This morning, a letter from Credit Solutions Ltd arrived; it is an “Interest /Late payment charges (courtesy of Amex) notice!

 

As I am dealing with the admin now, should I send a letter to CSL to tell them to wind their necks in as it is in dispute with the OC? From what I’ve read, I thought when a debt is in dispute, no further interest and charges can be added or am I mistaken? Also, aren’t they in breach of OFT guidelines?

 

A CCA request was sent to Citi cards and their 12+2+30 days are up in less than two weeks. DH has posted a couple of complaints prior to requesting a CCA. This morning they have written (and very poorly drafted I must say) saying they are sorry he is unhappy with the collection company they use. The thing is the collection company they mention is not the actual company they used!

 

They make no mention of the CCA at all and have “as a goodwill gesture” credited his account with £20. They go on to say they have noted that token payments are being made by DH each month and to phone a 0870 number to have his financial situation reviewed and request to be placed on a payment plan! Needless to say they will not be getting any phone calls!! Everything will be in writing.

 

 

Personally, I think they are worried as

 

1: DH made two complaints to Citi Cards, in one of the letters he told them he has been diagnosed with PTSD and the DCA (Power2Contact) visited the house twice after the complaint was made, once just posting a card halfway through, the second time the agent knocked)

 

2: A CCA has been sent

 

 

 

Any help and advice would be welcomed on what I should do next, I thank you in advance

 

MrsZ

[babybear39]

Send this to CSL:

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Your Reference:

Client reference:

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to you, as it is in dispute with ***DCA*** and has been since ***Date***

Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998

 

 

As ***DCA*** is now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request, Office of Fair Trading Collection Guidelines and s10 Data Protection Act request, I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

 

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default, enforcement action is NOT permitted; under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law. Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Now I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to ***DCA*** for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as ***DCA*** cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

 

If ***DCA***chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

 

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Amend to suit, do not sign, print your name, send recorded and keep a copy with your postal reciept.

 

Request the OC's complaints procedure, give them the required 8 weeks to respond to your satisfaction and if they don't, report them to FOS.

 

Send this to citi and a copy to P2C:

 

Dear xxxx

 

Account Ref xxxx

 

Please be advised that I will only communicate with you in writing. I have noted your repeated attempts to contact me by telephone over the past few weeks/months and these have been duly logged by time and date.

 

Furthermore, should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

Yours faithfully/sincerely

 

Also via recorded post etc...

 

As Amex have now breached the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive and the CPUTR 2008, you should report them to Trading Standards and the OFT straight away.

Edited July 9, 2008 by babybear39
forgot a bit

[ScarletPimpernel]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with sending the 'account in dispute' letter; in my view the CCA default is more serious than a dispute because demanding payment is unlawful.

 

I refer to your letter dated xxxx, the content of which is noted. I do not acknowledge any debt to you or any company you claim to represent. All communication must be in writing.

 

On (date) I made a formal request pursuant to s.78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Your client failed to comply fully and properly, and so remains in default. Therefore, the provisions of s.78 (6) apply, and your demand for payment is unlawful.

 

[The only document that your client supplied, which they averred was the credit agreement, did not comply with s.61 of the Act, which renders the agreement unenforceable by virtue of s.127(3).]

 

Clearly, the alleged debt is disputed. Your client has been provided with full details, but has failed to make any substantive effort to resolve the dispute. It should not be necessary to remind you that the Office of Fair Trading Guidance on Debt Collection is clear that failing to suspend collection activity whilst a dispute is unresolved is an unfair practice. Your activity also appears to be contrary to ss.3(b) & 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

Take notice that if you intend to send a representative to my home, I will not offer an appointment; any visit would therefore be contrary to the OFT Guidance and also CPUTR).

 

Yours etc.

 

Use the bit in blue if they've sent, as in my case, just application forms.

 

I've also been giving some thought recently to complaints. I now tend not to complain & ask for their compliant procedure on their first letter, since they can simply say that they weren't aware of the circumstances. If, having been informed, they continue, I think a complaint then carries more weight.

[babybear39]

Thanks for that SC. The new legislation does mean that the templates and other letters need updating. May I 'borrow' your letter for future use?

Edited July 9, 2008 by babybear39
forgot something as usual

[ScarletPimpernel]

Anyone's free to use or adapt any of my letters.

 

I see I forgot to add the usual 'If you don't understand this letter, you should seek professional advice' bit that seems to go down so well with DCAs.

[Misterzeus]

Thank you very much for your replies Babybear and ScarletPimpernel, that’s very kind of you.

 

So, I’ll send the letter SP kindly posted to CSL and should I also copy to Amex too?

 

Power2Contact have neither written nor attempted to visit since the CCA was sent to Citi Cards. The last communication from P2C was the visit at the end of May. Although, I have to admit that I am wondering that as now Citi has graced DH with a letter (our 8 year old grandson could have done a better job!!) whether Power2Contact will be set on to us again! They have had the letters telling them not to visit (Citi Cards twice), they can’t phone as they don’t have any telephone numbers for us.

 

After re-reading the letter from Citi Cards and checking the files, I see they have only addressed the first complaint letter – hence the different collection company they mentioned. They did send a letter stating that as there was no contact from DH to Citi (blatantly untrue) they would consider sending around one of their agents, DH wrote back with the template letter from this forum and heard no more from them! Then P2C came along, hence the need for the 2nd complaint to Citi.

 

I shall write a strongly worded letter to Citi Cards informing them that they have failed to answer the 2nd complaint and should I also remind them that they have not responded to DH’s CCA request or let them dig an even bigger hole for themselves by going the further 30 days?

 

Thanks once again for all your help, without it I’d be lost!!