MBNA PPI Unsecured Loans Eyes Wide Shut

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

I have a claim started against RBS.

I have been following your thread and your advice to others in similar PPI situations. Like the Humour.

I have seen somewhere in my endeavours to become a fully qualified Legal expert an item re banks using refinancing of earlier loans in an effort to get even more bonuses/Profits. It seems that banks havaing access to a great deal of your financial information. ie salary, direct debits, standing orders, overdrafts, credit card payments etc are in an ideal position to stalk you for the ideal time to pounce with a "this is just a friendly call to see if we can help you with your account etc etc" They know when you are in a bit of difficulty and the "can we help with refinance to consolidate your existing loan with PPI and your credit card and your overdraft"

 

this has happened to me 5 times since 2000 and I have only become aware of the PPI issue through this site and MoneySavingExpert in the last 14 months.

 

I will find the item and post to see if it can be used in your argument against MBNA.#

 

UNFAIR RELATIONSHIPS

44. Sections 19-22 repeal and replace sections 137-140 of the 1974 Act which

empowered the Court to reopen an ‘extortionate credit bargain’. A bargain was

‘extortionate’, if at the time the agreement was made, it required the debtor to make

payments which were grossly exorbitant or otherwise grossly contravened ordinary

principles of fair dealing. In coming to its conclusions the court was required to

consider evidence produced concerning specific factors relevant to prevailing interest

rates, the debtor (e.g. age, experience or degree of financial pressure) and creditor

(e.g. accepted risk having regard to value of security).

45. The amended provisions will enable a court to consider whether the

relationship between the creditor and debtor arising out of that agreement is unfair to

the debtor because of the terms of the agreement, the way in which the agreement is

operated by the creditor or any other thing done or not done by or on behalf of the

creditor before or after the agreement was made. The court may take into account all

matters it thinks relevant relating to the creditor and debtor in making its assessment.

The court is provided with a broad range of remedies under new section 140B to

address the unfairness.

These notes refer to the Consumer Credit Act 2006 (c.14)

which received Royal Assent on 30 March 2006

15

Section 19: Unfair relationships between creditors and debtors

46. Section 19 inserts a new section 140A after section 140 of the 1974 Act.

Section 140A(1) enables a court to make an order under the new section 140B,

inserted into the 1974 Act by section 20 (see below) if it finds that the relationship

between the creditor and the debtor arising out of a credit agreement, or that

agreement taken with any related agreement, is unfair to the debtor. A relationship

may be unfair to the debtor because of one or more of the following:

• any of the terms of the agreement or any related agreement;

• the way in which the creditor has exercised or enforced any of his rights under

the agreement or any related agreement;

• any other thing done (or not done) by, or on behalf of, the creditor (whether

occurring before or after the making of the agreement or any related

agreement).

47. The court may take into account all matters it thinks relevant (including

matters relevant to the debtor and to the creditor) in determining whether a

relationship is unfair. This may include anything done or not done on behalf of or in

relation to the creditor’s associates or former associates (as defined by section 184 of

the 1974 Act).

48. Section 140A does not apply to agreements that are exempt under section

16(6C) of the 1974 Act. Section 16(6C) exempts consumer credit agreements secured

on land that are regulated by FSA under FSMA.

Section 20: Powers of the court in relation to unfair relationships

49. Section 20 inserts a new section 140B after the new section 140A (inserted

into the 1974 Act by section 19). Section 140B sets out the types of orders that a

court may make in relation to any determination that a relationship between a creditor

and a debtor is unfair.

Section 21: Interpretation of ss.140A and 140B of the 1974 Act

50. Section 21 inserts a new section 140C after the new section 140B (inserted

into the 1974 Act by section 20). The new section 140C defines the types of

agreements that are covered by sections 140A and 140B. Any agreement that

involves the provision of credit to an individual, whether or not regulated by the 1974

Act (except as specified (see paragraph 48 above)), is covered. The sections also

cover, through the definition of “related agreement”, the practice where the creditor

enters into successive credit agreements with a debtor for the purpose, for example, of

increasing the total amount of the debt or obtaining multiple fees from the debtor for

setting up each loan.

Taken from this link

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2006/en/ukpgaen_20060014_en.pdf

 

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello again BRW,

 

Seems like you are getting a plan together.

 

I was fortunate enough to have kept carbon copies of my CCAs and being much in the same boat as yourself with two loans with Direct Line (part of the RBoS empire). Then RBoS step in to help with a really good APR loan and PPI followed by a second and a third with perfect timing. They call you so the approach is unsolicited. unasked: not asked for; "unasked advice"; "unsolicited junk mail"

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn - Definition in context

 

Like your own case any figure shown on the statements on refinance show a rebate on the loan but there is no apportionment to PPI or the Interest applied to it. My guess is, it would be be peanuts.

 

Each of my CCAs show they have included the Interest on the PPI premiums as part of the Total Charge for Credit TCC which basically If I understand it correctly contravenes the Consumer Credit Act 1974 as the CCAs I hold show the PPI as optional. I believe this renders the CCA unenforceable and if it is, then it is worthless, and if it is worthless then why should I have paid for it. Refund please!

I have listed some details in my own thread taken from the Office of Fair Trading. Post 15 on this link.

alanalana PPI claim against RBS (looking for some help) please

 

Good luck with your action

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

More info for you, not sure if you can use it or not. Check out my links thread. links aaaand this link.

 

Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2083

 

may give your more ammunition.

 

regards

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

I know you know this but interesting none the less.

 

Payment Protection Insurance: Peace of Mind - Until You Make a Claim

 

Whenever you take on any sort of credit, you are guaranteed that someone will try and sell you payment protection insurance.

A car loan, mortgage and your credit cards - borrow money and you will be subjected to someone in full-on selling mode extolling the virtues of their payment protection policy. You can’t escape it. What would happen if you lost your job? What if you had an accident? What if you died? And we all know about Sod’s Law. If you turn your nose up at it now ... you are just begging for disaster to befall you.

The problem is most payment protection insurance is ill-fitting. It won’t do the job for which it was intended, because you are not the type of person the insurance company will pay out to. Some might argue that would be anyone who makes a claim, but that would probably be unfair.

No, each policy has a myriad of clauses. Little caveats that mean that the policy doesn’t actually apply to you. The cover that is supposed to pay out in the unfortunate case of unemployment, well there are a few loopholes to benefit the insurance company on that issue.

Those loopholes are all listed. Listed in print small enough to make a nanobot look monolithic in comparison, but it is there. You signed the paperwork, you should have read it.

• Casual worker? Unemployment cover doesn’t apply.
   
  
• Had a short-term contract? Cover doesn’t apply.
  
• Knew you were going to lose your job prior to taking out the insurance? Cover doesn’t apply.
  
• Self-employed and closed down the business but didn’t go bankrupt? Cover doesn’t apply.

The sickness cover is not much better.

• Existing conditions? They can’t be claimed against.
   
  
• Something new caused by an existing condition? Sorry, claim denied.
  
• Died as a result of existing conditions? Guess what? Claim denied.

And that’s not even the half of it.

 

from this link:

 

Payment Protection Insurance: Peace of Mind - Until You Make a Claim

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

I have browsed your latest post and will try and research for you specifically:

 

I did note that on one of the MBNA Loans with PPI, the CCA Documents came pre-signed by the MBNA. I read somewhere that this may in itself void the CCA. I can't find the reference to that...help anyone?

 

Same with an Amex Loan with PPI (now taken over by MBNA), the CCA for that was also pre-Signed before I saw it.

 

And I am sure there is something in the links page ( you know that famous links page about the stuff in your post.

 

We always recommend you consider the security of Payment Protection Cover." That means an Advised Sale I think, although they turned me down on that Loan as I elected not to have their nice PPI! No use to me, but it may be of use to anyone who took out an MBNA Loan with PPI in 1996. Looks like they were "Advising" all PPI Sales because of this statement

 

http://www.bba.org.uk/content/1/c4/9...uide_Feb08.pdf since posting this link it has sadly hit a technical snag and is no longer available ........now there's a surprise!!!!! especially as the comment that follows is poignant....and it is now linked to a different location hit the button and see if it mentions loans and PPI.

 

I like the part about not being refused the loan if you do not want the PPI (read it and weep)

and this link shows which financial institutions are members of the British Bankers Association The information is no longer available

 

And guess what since this has been posted the link has been withdrawn just try and see for yourself.....There are spys out there

 

More to follow for you BRW

 

The banks are watching and unlinking or diverting sites that can compromise them

 

stay focused

aa

 

 

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

The link I put up in my previous post in your thread actually goes to the correct page in my links in the stickies so it may have been a glitch.

 

Still looking for info on pre-signed CCA..

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello again BRW,

 

I have found this little snippet. Not sure if is any good at Law but it may point you in the right direction.

 

Section 61(1)(a) prescribes that a regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in the prescribed form containing all the prescribed terms is signed by the debtor and the creditor or hirer.

 

Notice how debtor signs first:-D

 

This is the link: http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file42398.pdf

 

and there is a lot more ref pre contract information but there is different reference for distance selling.

 

see this: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft801.pdf

 

these are the regulations for distance marketing: The Financial Services (Distance Marketing) Regulations 2004

Not sure if this applies to post within UK more probably outside UK to UK

 

 

on with the fight

 

cheers

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

Please post your other thread so I see what's happening.

 

That CLI stuff could get someone into hot water.

 

I just hang up unwanted calls or let the answer phone deal with it.

 

If I get unwanted calls (you know the can you spare 5 mins this won't take long call) my response is NO and if they persist I ask them what do they not understand about the word NO................. the N or the O.

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

How true your last post!

 

I used to get a regular monthly call from my ever so friendly, polite, extremely efficient, caring, how can I help you, customer advisor (all for another bonus in the pay packet).

We can refinance your loan and include your agreed overdraft balance "that you pay a fee for" and you could have a new car, holiday in the Maldives etc etc and we can help you even more by making sure when you take to your sick bed you will have an inappropriate PPI insurance packet that will be so difficult to claim on you should on no account ever need to go to the doctor. The PPI is a definate good move by you, what a great decision you made, do you know you would make a really brilliant bank manager.

 

No it's all in the post just sign and away you go (no mention here of Bankruptcy proceeding that will follow)

 

cheers

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

"Pre-Signed CCA by bank is Void. See s.59 CCA 1974, Prospective Agreements are void, and/or not enforceable without a Court Order."

 

The section 59 straight from the CCA 1974 (I have it in front of me) states:

 

59 Agreement to enter future agreement void

 

(1) An agreement is void if, and to the extent that, it purports to bind a person to enter as debtor or hirer into a prospective regulated agreement.

 

(2) Regulations may exclude from the operation of subsection (1) agreements such as are described in the regulations.

 

you will need to check for Statutory Instruments and CCA 2006 to see if this has been amended.

 

regards

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

Yes probably right in that the CCA 2006 would not be relevant to your cases.

 

Yes much the same for me I have amassed mounds of paperwork but the sticking point is the delay on getting information from the bank in the first place.

 

It's definately a learning curve but I find it extremely interesting stuff, even if I can't get my head round it first time.

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

There will be holes the FOS for a start is finding in favour of the victims to a ratio of 4 out of 5, 80% success rate there for starters.

 

There is still the Competition Commissioners to put in a bit of interest when they have completed their inquiry.

 

The Court route will probably turn out the same as bank charges they will delay and counter claim and then not turn up and offer a refund but not everything until we get a test case but I reckon PPI has been open to much more abuse by the banks than the unlawful charges.

 

The have a game I reckon called select your victim for a bonus and sting him for ppi then when he has a bit of trouble sting him again.

 

They probably have a branch lotto on who gets the most bonus payments and the winner gets the prime choice of the next victim.

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

how is your plan proceeding?

 

just popped in to bump you up and to let you know my bank are really playing the NO Communication game. Two letters sent recorded signed for have been either not been signed for (refused by the bank) or lost so I have now sent two in a special delivery bag, just to up the ante.

 

Lets see if the special delivery goes missing!

 

regards

 

aa

[alanalana]

check out mint ppi self employed thread nearly missed the envelope thing

cheers

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

You ok if I stick those links in my links?

 

If you are ok with that you get the credit in links.8-)

 

Why are the companies in question not named and shamed?

Serious question - How good would it be to see some of our illustrious banking organisations lose their licences to trade?

 

In the first link I assume the Claim chasers is referring to 20% commission people who want to help us out. Would that be correct? Not the likes of us innocents BRW, aa, hell and the rest of the CAG posters???

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

the links are now in links.

 

I used to get a regular call from RBS. Thankfully they have stopped at the moment.

 

When you hit them with the harassment claim don't forget your wasted time element logging calls in the compensation you require.

 

On the subject of links do you think the post is a bit long? I would value you opinion. I have tried to put as much info in there so new caggers can get some of the picture about the misselling, but it may lose its interest by being such a size.

 

Regards

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

searching the site came across a few links. These may help you with the telephone harassment...

 

Malicious Communications Act 1988 (c. 27)

 

Protection from Harassment Act 1997 (c. 40)

 

hope these help

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

Still up for the fight I see! Good luck with the Decyphering of the bar codes.

 

Many of the CCA replies I have seen so far, are very, very, very suspicious on Dates. One arrived about 4 Days after the CCA 12 Working Day Deadline, and even had a handy Franking Mark dated to confirm the Letter was posted after the Deadline..but the Date on the Letter was 5 Days before the Deadline! Yeah, right, I bet it was.

 

I don't believe you have stopped trusting your friendly bank!!

 

My bank use UK mail and some envelopes are date marked others not. I have two examples of letters being dated and the envelopes date marked three days later.

 

The only time I got a quick response was the CCA request which they sent special next day delivery and the envelope was posted the day after the date on the letter. They did however only send me the details on the Current loan as they are not bound under section 77 to send details of old CCAs.

 

If you check out my thread you will see I am still not in receipt of all the details requested in my SAR.

 

However a nice Mod named Rory on the legal thread tells me they have to produce CCAs for old refinanced agreements if you ask for them in the SAR (which of course I have done about 8 times so far). Also any old agreements you have had and the they the banks are required to retain the paperwork for 5 years after the agreement is closed through refinance or settlement.

 

Re the barcode decyphher, do you not have any postman friends??

 

regards

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

I know at least 2 postmen (one lives across the road from me)

 

Would you like me to approach them clandestinely for an answer to bar codes or do you want me to ask them to acquire post office stamps? and I don't mean first or second class stamps

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

How is your case doing?

Just to let you know two envelopes 1 X Royal Mail and 1 X UK Mail are in the hands of my Post Office mate. He will ask some questions and get back to me. I will post the info when found or if you prefer PM let me know.

 

Regards

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

thanks for the update.

I have a bunch of envelopes fully loaded ready to post if you check out post 47 on my thread...alanalana PPI claim against RBS (looking for some help) please

 

You will se what I mean. Deadline Wednesday 30. The nice chap at the FOS tells me when I write claiming the missold PPI the Bank has 8 weeks to respond. no response forthcoming within that time, complaint to FOS. If the bank refuse the refund saying sorry but that is our final word on the matter then the 8 weeks goes out of the window and a complaint to the FOS immediately.

 

The have told me they will look at anything within 6 years, so three of my claims will be straight to the FOS when the time is right. If the RBS comes up with the SAR goodies then it could be 4 and maybe even a full house.

 

Regards

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

are you ready for some information from my Postman helper?

 

Firstly he has informed me that the orange bar codes on the front are purely codes for addresses. areas and post codes and nothing to do with date of posting.

 

He also tells me that a lot of banks will be sending out tons of mail ( I guess the tonnage will be about to increase over the coming months) and so your letter will go into a big box (probably at the bottom of it) and there it will sit until box is full or Friday comes around, or someone remembers the big box full of important stuff. The letter will then be put into the mail system and is put through automated system and the date is printed on the back, (or the front if the envelope is put in the wrong way) but depending on the serviceability of the machine you may see the date or half of it or none of it. It may actually bypass the machine altogether as it could be a bank machine.

 

Postie also believes that some mail can sit in these big boxes for several days but of course did it include your letter?

 

I have a letters dated:

8 Feb but it was sent First Class secure DX (next day delivery) I received it on 11 Feb. So much for next day delivery!

25 Mar envelope not franked until 28 Mar

The only really fast one was the cca request letter dated 17 Apr and I received it next day, again secure DX next day delivery.

 

I have even had a copy of a statement in brown envelope without a privacy marking (How clever is that)?

 

It would appear that it is hit and miss in my case and the majority of my letters are not date marked.

 

Hope this has been of some help to you.

 

You could probably be able to make out some dates if you can scan and blow up the size of the date.

 

PS my deadline for SAR is tomorrow should I send that letter, post 47 on my thread???

 

Regards

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

Have you ever thought of taking a job in Cryptography?

 

Plus a link for you ref the telephone calls. You may be already aware of this but I have stuck it in the links sticky as well.

 

The Basics - Privacy and Electronic Communications

 

Keep at it:eek:

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

This is the barcode link mentioned in my thread. I hope it is of use.

 

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/publisher/HP101208141033.aspx

 

Regards

 

aa

 

PS had a response from my bank today just about to post on my thread after I get some legal advice on it.

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

how did you know it would be me posting first after that?

 

You are having a war out there but do not lose heart:)

your war is winable I see some of what you mean when the BBA letter to me stated we are not a regulator just a trade organisation and we have passed your complaint on to our colleagues at the RBS. My reply to the BBA will be posted soon. The banking industry is to use a nautical term (which will no doubt result in in box email from you) is lets batten down the hatches and ride out the storm. However these people do no understand what a storm they are about to face and especially in light of the Competion Commission preliminary findings.

 

I know this does not resolve all your concerns BRW but a fight is not a fight unless it is a really good fight and you will undoubtedly be on the winning side.

 

I know what they are like to a certain extent as you see my struggle trying to get them to comply with SAR.

 

I had another letter today from the FOS my case is now with a case supervisor (remember this is just for the failure to supply data).

 

keep up the attack and remember any titbits of info I find will come your way.

 

Regards

 

aa