Hi, As I say .. firstly send the bog standard CCA request letter - its in the letter library. secondly if they don't reply to your request within the time frame, or they come back and say a general "there is no cca as a bank account is not regualted under the act" - then you can send my attached letter thirdly if they don't respond to your 2nd letter ... they you just leave it .... the ball is in their court and the account will remain in dispute until the come across with what you have asked for . if however, they come back again with the, "oh no it isn't regulated", then you just tinker with my letter to suit basically correcting them that the account is regulated as a running credit agreement .... DO NOT AT ANY POINT (UNLESS THEY MENTION IT) MAKE ANY REFERENCE TO PART V EXEMPTION .... as its only yourself that you're going to snooker ... Best thing is, just keep coming back here with updates as and when you get letters from them, and everyone here will help with what you next step should be ... this is assuming that you don't want to just enter into a payment agreement with them .... which of course is your choice ... my postings are just another side of the coin to look at. Abs x

Hi there, if you go into the letter library on here there is a template general CCA request - use this - do not under any circumstances (as I have seen with some Caggers letter) make any reference to part V exemption whatsoever ..... it is for the bank to be aware of this and NOT for you to give them the heads on it. Having sent off your CCA request with your £1 - and if they don't reply within the 12 day timeframe or they come back and say it is not regulated by the CCA in any format (because we know thats incorrect, bank accs with ods are PARTIALLY regulated under the Act) , you can send (if you wish) a copy of my attached letter I sent to my own bank .... who have refused to respond in over 12 mths - merely passing it to a DCA. (the od I had wasn't small by anyones means either .. so I think the letter did the trick). I have only attached the main body of the letter, obviously when you send it out, you will include you own address and their address and date of issue as your headers .. Hope this helps ... Abs x8-) bank acc (od) cca request.pdf

Hi, Current Accounts in isolation do not have any regulation under the CCA - but when there is an overdraft facility on the account this part of the account IS regulated under the CCA, with the benefit of part V exemptin. Part V exemption technially means that your bankers do not have to provide a singed executed agreement in the traditional sense following your CCA request - but ONLY if they claim part v exemption in their response to your cca request. Whilst they do not have to provide a traditional copy agreement (if part v exemption claimed) they do have to provide as rightly stated earlier in the thread, a letter of facility, which they should have sent to you, and have to provide as part of your CCA request, a copy of every letter since the original letter of facility, showing any amendment to the OD agreement i.e any increase or reduction to the OD facility available to you. So start with a CCA request (as I did with my own bank) - no need for a SAR in my opinion which will cost you £10 - as this won't disclose if they are about to claim part v exemption - a CCA request will achieve what you want (if you want to go this route) and only cost you the £1 postal order for your CCA request - their response to your CCA request will give you an idea on how clued up they are .. then if you want to you could go the SAR route looking to have any charges removed from the os balance. As I say, Part V exemption just means that there is no "traditional" signed agreement for the bank to provide - the likes you would have for a credit card of loan .... BUT the creditor still has to send you every other piece of info that is requested in the CCA - which would be as I say every letter stating the change in facility, terms and conditions, statements etc...etc... All pertinent whilst you are within your authorised OD limit ... now if you go out side of this ... or they have reduced your OD - which has landed you in the position you are in, or they have completely withdrawn the OD facility .... there is something else to bear in mind... Lets say you are os of your authorised OD limit, the minute you went os your authorised limit you would have gone from an approved overdraft with appropriate interest rate and charges, to the banks unauthorised rate & higher fee charging band .... in that event your bank should have, if they wished to continue to enjoy part v exemption, and within 3 months of you drifitng into unauthroised waters, provided full details of your OD breach i.e how much you had exceeded it by) and the unauthorised int rate and charges that you would now be subject to per charging period, whist your account remained in unauthorised waters ... Now if this is the case, and they have failed to do this (regardless if they claim part v exemption in response to your CCA request) the penalty of their failure to provide you with such information within 3 mths of the incident, immediately results in them losing the benefit of part v exemption - which means that the OD is now fully regulated, and as in the case of CCA requests for loans etc, your bank now HAS TO PROVIDE you with a correctly executed full CCA agreement - of which there will be none (unless you did of course sign something when you effected you OD) ... resulting in them being unable to satisfy your CCA request under the terms of the Act - and thereby placing the account in legal dispute ..... which ultimately can't be resolved by the bank, as there will never be a correctly exectued CCA to provide to you to resolve the dispute .... which should mean game over. Or of course ... you could just make an offer of a reduced payment agreement with your bank ..... Abs x

Hi T, As you know from my prev post on your thread I too have a NW account, which has been passed to a new dca CCS Ltd - god knows who they are - never heard of them !! Anyway I copied a court defence from someones thread just in case they took me the court route .. can't remember who orig posted ... but I have attached it and hope it gives you some help or pointers (with of course big thanks to the orig author who posted this up !!) Abs x possible nw ccard court defence.pdf

Hi all, Have recd chaser letter from CCS Collect (Commercial Collection Services Ltd) for NW B Society. Accts in valid dispute - have been for over 1 yr - they won't respond to the areas of dispute raised re my ccard and another accouunt, so just about to send off "bemused" letter to the DCA, but just wondered if they are any good, anyone had any fights with them? I have goggled them, so know a bit about them, but to be honest I've never heard of them before this, and none of my other creditors have used them - so any info would be good. Thanks Abs x

Hi, Thats what I mean ... only issuing a paper statement when charges are to be applied .. as I say the bank is HBOS - my own bankers are NWide.

I appreciate what you say about raising it at the time, but she definately didn't opt out at any point ... My question is really on the legal point of if the bank is duty bound to issue to the account holder a written statement of applied fees i.e any od fees (auth or not), returned chq fees, etc .. any fees to be applied to the account really ... I know that I have online statements from my own bank, but if I use my OD, they send me a written statement .. hence I wanted to check this out .. Abs x

Hi all, Quick question ... if anyone can help ?? Is your bank legally obliged to issue a postal bank statement if your current account is overdrawn and they have applied charges i.e monthly interest ... Or, can they just make your statements available on line (whether you're in credit or not) and its your responsibility to download them etc ... (what about if you don't have a PC though?). Anyway, this is for a friend, who operates the small OD facility on an old HBOS bank acct as sort of a running loan - so she doesn't take much notice of it really, pays £20 in per month, reduces it a bit and then uses it up again when she gets near the end of the month. Anyway we were chatting and I asked her how much a month she was being charged in interest, as she may be better with a loan, she told me she didn't know as she hadn't received a statement for about 18 mths ... although she said she always recd them before this - but she didn't think it was a lot. So that got me thinking !! She hasn't moved home, and when she went on line (after having to re-register to get a bloody sign in code or something !!) .. she found a load of on line statments for the period that she hasn't recd postal ones ... if you get what I mean !!! She hadn't opted for on line statements, and hadn't actually accessed her on line facility for quite a while .... she's a bit ditzy !!!! I was sure that if the bank levys any charges on your account, for what ever reason, they have to advise you in writing what type of charges are to be/have been applied and how much each charge is for the monthly banking period ... and this has to be via a (written hard copy) postal statement .... and that its only if you're in credit, AND you have elected not to receive paper statements, that they don't have to send you one out (unless of course you request ones) Any bank workers, or indeed anyone who knows about such things who can advise .... ??!! Thanks guys in advance ... Abs x

Hi there, You really need to post up what they have sent you - so that everyone can have a look through the docs and spot anything. also what year did you commence your borrowing with the creditor? Having said that regarding reconstructed agreements, there are a few rules ... The Carey case is the basis upon which lenders are now happily not even bothering to look for original copies of agreements - and happily just sending out generic copies, that they say were used at the time of your application/agreement - and therefore what you would have signed. This, following Carey, legally satisfies a S78 request - in that you have asked for a copy of the agreement pertinent for your account - and they have "allegedly" provided you with one. You'll also normally find that the reconstruted ageements are watertight - with all the bells and whistles included to evidence a correctly executed agreement. Now then ...... Under Carey, if they provide you with a reconstructed agreement they are duty bound to tell you why you haven't been provided with what you asked for ... i.e a true copy of your own executed (signed) agreement - it could be that they simply don't hold the original at all (which is highly likelly for older agreements) - so could never comply with any request to do so - hence a "made up" one arrives. So, can you challenge what they have sent you, and demand the original ... well if there is anything in the reconstructed agreement that you don't believe was part of the original documentation you signed, then yes, you are quite within your rights to put them to strict proof regarding what you are challenging.... Also, a recon agreement by its virtue, should be an EXACT copy of what they allege you signed at the time of application .... so the address they have included in the recon agreement, should be the address where you resided at the time you applied for the credit. Same for your name, is it exact ? I f you a female and married, but were single at the time, does it show your maiden name .... you get the picture ... !!!! You must look, look, and look again for anything that means that presentation of a true copy of/or the original IS required to satisfy your request, and will be reqd by you at any court hearing ... as if you don't quibble on the accuracy of the recon agreement, even at a court hearing the recon agreement MAY be accepted by the Judge, if the creditor states it is a direct recon agreement of what would have been sent to you ... So there is something to be getting on with, but you really must scan and post up the docs that you have recd - the advice I have given is generic on the basis of a recon agreement - we need to also see whats in it to help further .... where we will be able to look at if the quoted interest rates and terms are correct .. etc .. etc.. Abs x

Hi ... Current Accounts technically do have part V exemption (which means they don't have to provide a singed executed agreement) ... but only if the provider claims this exemption in their responses to you - which I know Moorcroft have quoted. However, if the account is only being managed by Moorcroft on behalf of Santander, and is not actually owned by Moorcroft ... then I would have directed my CCA request to Santander - and see what the actual creditor comes back with, Moorcroft are nobody until they own the debt. As I say, Part V exemption just means that there is no "traditional" signed agreement - the likes you would have for a credit card of loan .... BUT the creditor still has to send you every other piece of info that is requested in the CCA - which would be terms and conditions, statements etc...etc... Notwithstanding the above ..... when you stepped outside of your authorised limit/closed your account, you would have gone from an approved overdraft interest rate, to the banks unauthorised rate & charges .... in that event the creditor should have, if they wished to continue to enjoy part v exemption, should have within 3 months of you drifitng into unauthroised waters, sent you details of the unauthorised int rate to be charged and penalty charges they would be applying for each month you remain outside of your authorised limit. Penalty of their failure to provide such information within the specified time framed, results in them losing the benefit of part v exemption - which means that they as in normal CCA requests, now HAVE TO PROVIDE you with a correctly executed agreement - of which there will be none - so they are stuffed ..... game over. Abs x

Ah ... you beat me to it ... I;ve had a trawl through letters I've issued .. and guess what found one for GW - for 2 NWide accounts - who are now being chased by Roxburghe .... Now I've written to Roxburghe ... but they keep on ringing ... and ringing ... and ringing .... despite every time my refusal to answer security, and to tell them they've been reported ... Does GW carry any weight ... is he a real solicitor etc ... etc ..

Thanks for the replies ... definately not a parking fine - as they have my telephone number - so got to be a creditor ..... but who ? Hmmmm ... no doubt I'll have something drop on the mat ... what a lovely christmas pressie that will be .. !! Abs x

Hi peeps, Had a telephone msg left on my answer phone, gentleman caller who has asked for me by name, stating that he was calling from Graham White solicitors, and I need to ring them back urgently. Whom do they usually act for ... have they any teeth ? Abs x

Hi Roxy are involved in 2 accts from the same bank. Contiued calls, despite in receipt of letters refusing tele calls, and being aware that the 2 accts are in dispute. Any heads up on how the play? Abs x

Hi, ODs are regulated under the Act - but not the current account itself - and you don;t have a traditional CCA. I have had this confirmed by experian, who have advised that is why only the amount of your od is recorded, and not what you are in credit by .. (if that makes sense). Try this .... there's others if you look about ... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?237096-Are-overdrafts-covered-by-cca-s The letter I have sent is here as an attachment ... it mentions signed agreement to see what their response was .... which was nil .... current acct letter.pdf

Hi, Yes PT had a court case with the approved limit - it failed - but not just on this one point - so I wouldn't hang your hopes on the Approved Limit area. PPI is a genuine area you can challenge, Egg were fined a huge amount regarding their mis-selling of the very same - if you didn't need it, want it, or were able to benefit from it - then its been mis-sold - you will get a refund of premiums Plus interest. Were you one of the infamous accounts who recd a " you are to be terminated" letter in Jan 2008 (with termination occuring March2008) by Egg - as you didn't fit their new business model? If so, there is another area you can look at .. Abs x

The advice I have recd is that current accounts have part v exemption, if the bank claims they are seeking to reply upon it ... if they don't they aren't. Once the OD has been withdrawn, or you go over your OD limit, they have to send you WITHIN 3 months, notification of the rate of interest you are being charged .. failure to do so takes the OD into the CCA arena - which means that they have to supply you with a CCA - which doesn't exist in the traditional format for an OD - so therefore whilst it will stay on your credit record for 6yrs, it is unenforceable. I have used this argument myself - and have not been pursued further. Have a hunt round on here, there are/were a few OD threads where all this has been discussed at length ..... hope this helps Abs x

Hi Rocky, Ok lets see what they respond with ... should be interesting !!! Abs x

Thanks Well mine came with a car loan - this seems to have been the way they handed them out .. !!! When I went back to sign the car loan agreement and collect the car, the salesman was "delighted" to tell me that I had also been selected to recieve a flexible loan account, called a Preference Account - and thats where this little adventure began .... !!!! Just shout if you need any help !! Abs x

So glad you asked .... !! In a word NO .... not since early July - when I sent another bog off letter to them ... There is absolutely no where for these plonkers to go ... they have mucked up on a spectular scale in how they have handled this from start to finish ... and have well and truely buried themselves from the lies they have told, to the illegal agrement they sent me, and everything in between .... If you need help with your own, give me a shout ..... Abs x

Hi there, I haven't seen you scan of the CCA provided but in general .... You must look to see if the application form is headed that it is a consumer credit agreement regulated under 1974 CCA Act - this should also be included in your signature box, where is shoud also state that by signing you agree to be bound by the terms of the act. That is how they got round using an application form to also act as an agreement, and getting you spending asap ... !! Of course if the doc provided is cited by the Creditor as a CCA, then it should also include ALL prescribed terms under s60(1) of the ACT, and contain a box or reference mentioning or discussing cancellation rights. Must also be signed and dated by both parties i.e you and the creditor All my CCA requests have come back with an application form in place of an agreement - all but one (bank of scotland preference account) are correctly headed and include the "health warning" about my signature .... but there are no pres terms in any of them ... !!!! I have obviously first responded with the "thie is an application" dispute letter - to which they have all replied that the application is the agreement - which suits me just fine as they have all been defective ....!! So, my response has been to send the "in dispute" letter, reiterating that what they have have sent me following my CCA request, is a mere application form - which they have advised they are choosing to rely upon as a regulated credit agreement. Accordingly for it to be a correctly executed agreement, ALL the prescribed terms as denoted by s60(1) of the Act must me loacted within the 4 corners of the agreement. I then go on to detail what the pres terms are and the consequences of them being absent .... if they come back and say "oh yes it is enforceable" ... I then simply request that in support of their claim, they direct me to the location of the pres terms within the alleged agreement they have sent me, so that I may consider them .... Of course they can't (if they are not in the doc they have given you), and there you have them snookered..... !!! And off you will go on the rounds of the DCAs .... Abs x

Ah, ok didn't know there was a 2nd page to the recon. I'm also unable to read the whole page you have scanned as only half is visable ? Could you scan up all the recon stuff again, in full pages? But what they appeat to be saying is that they have only sent you page 1 of the agreement you signed (which doesn't contain any perscribed terms), as I am presuming they are claiming they didn't scan, or retain the reverse of the original doc. Which from their recon docs supplied, they CLAIM WOULD have contained all the pres terms reqd for an enforceable doc - but they would wouldn't they ????!!! Thats all well and good ..... but WERE THEY ? Does the front page of the recon doc make any reference to the reverse or where the pres tems are? Also is the recon doc actually correct, i.e does it contain your correct name and address at the TIME of the application, correct employment details for that time etc .... as any errors is another way to get the recon version discounted - it has to be 100% correct to info that would have been contained in the original. By the way, a recon version is technically not sufficient to support any court proceedings, so if they want to got to court they SHOULD have to produce the original ... although some DJs are allowing the copy doc, if the Creditor swears that this is a true representative of the origianal ... so you need to discred the recon version as much as possible, to prove that doc is unreliable as evidence. Also, do you recall the pres terms being on the reverse of the original doc you signed ? If they weren't then you state this, and advise them you shall put them to strict proof to prove otherwise .. which shall only be satisfied by the presentation of the original .... Anyway, if you can have a scout through what you've got, and give a bit more info I will try and help .. As I say I'm no expert .. all advice is given in good faith and without legal training - but what I will do is give you guidance on the way I have handled things and the things I have learned, which has resulted in (currently) 7 creditors and DCAs all backing off (plus 5 of my friend who I have been helping) and leaving us alone for over 12 months now ... with just another 4 yrs to go until they fall off my credit record .. !!!! Abs x

Hi, From what I have read this is my opinion and just my observations, based on if I recd the papers you have how I would respond. From your upload these are my thoughts ... 1. The heading letter, which discussed credit limits, payments, and interest rate - is clearly headed that its a statement of account, and not a CCA 2. The microfiche copy they have sent you is really an appliction form, which I suspect they have provided, and reying upon as a cca, as it is clearly headed it is an agreement regualted by the CCA74 (which is quoted above your signature) 3. So, we have a CCA - but it has (as far as I could see), no prescribed terms within its 4 corners. (4 corners being between page 1 and the signaure page) 3a, They have said they have provided you with a copy of the front page of your agreement, so there are inferring that there is a 2nd, 3rd whatever - and thats because there are no pres terms in what you signed, so they are thinking on their feet 3b, For they to get away with this, there must be reference made on the page of signature, if this is the first page of the agreement presented, directing you as to where the pres terms are for your perusal BEFORE you actully sign the agreement - as your signature is confirming that you both agree to be bound by them. 3c, As there (from what I can see) is no such ref - or even discussion in the recent docs they have sent you where they are, they are buggered ... and in my opinion default of your CCA request. 4. Plus what the hell is an "update true copy" of your agreement - they have either provided you a true copy, or they haven't.... !!! I suspect they mean they have filled in the spaces on the reconstructed doc they have enclosed - which must contain all of the information that was in the original - which doesn't look as though it does (as there appears more in it !!), then it is also no good as a recon version. Also if they have provided a recon version, they have to confirm why they have provided you with a recon version instead a true copy of the original, and if they hold the original. 5. My next move would to just write back with the standard "in dispute" letter, on the basis that what they have sent you is not a correctly executed agreement ... etc ... etc.... 6. See what response you get, and then we can take it from there..... Abs x

Ok, I;ve had a look at the agreement on the other thread you mention. The document is an application form, but has clear notification that it also acts as a regulated credit agreement, this is also confirmed above the creditors place for signature. So IMHO it will stand up as a regulated agreement. To prove unenforceability under s127 - it must be evidenced that the executed agreement does not contain the reqd prescribed terms as noted under s60(1) of the CCA. Under s61 of the act - (a) the prescribed terms must be within the executed document - I noted in post 73 what those terms were. In the agreement you asked me to look at, the terms were located along the top, where it gave the apr, credit limit and monthly interest rate. It also included the "right to cancel" notification" , and both the signature of the debtor and creditor - I;m presuming yours also was singed correctly. So to my mind the pres terms are in the agreement - so if it were me I would tread carefully with that one - as the tcs do not have to be within the executed doc itself. But must have been provided to you all the same. Did you take any PPI - if so this could be a route of unenforceability if the PPI was made a condition of the agreement? I think you will need more than a faulty remedy date on the DN to stand a chance of success .... so as suggested by another Cagger have you checked the DN is correct with regards to amount demanded etc ... did they demand the whole amout outstanding or a lesser figure i.e just the arrears? If they demanded the whole amount this is another aspect you could challenge them on. Is the signature on the agreement yours? Does any aspect of the copy agreement differ from what you recall at the time of signing? Is it your signature etc ... If there any any doubts, you would be within your rights to demand the original to be presented and at court, to satisfy your dispute that the copy they have sent you is not a "true copy" of the original. If they don't have the original, then then can't disprove your allegation, and the case should flounder ...... could this be the key? I would throw everything in your defence, the failure of the DN, the absence of docs, etc, if you dispute the copy presented is actually a true copy .. etc .. etc. .... the more lines of defence they see you have, they more likely then may drop the thing before it gets to a DJ, and if it goes against them, any precedent set ... In fact, have you thought about referrring this to a "no win no fee" solicitor - as unless you are at the top of your game, and confident in representing yourself with a rock solid case, they may win because you simply cant present your argument as well as their own counsel. The Solicitor should also give you a good idea on your chances of success in court - unless of course the case is withdrawn before you get there !!! Just all ideas ... as I cant see your original docs I've given the best I can from the info accessed. Hope its of some help ... as this is along the court route .. may also be a good idea if you nudge the site team for a bit of advice .... as I haven't been down that route yet so have no experience of completing court papers, and wouldn't be the best to help you with that .... Good luck Abs x Ps - I remember reading earlier in your thread someone had said send a letter "without predjudice" ... only do this if you DONT WANT IT PRESENTED AS EVIDENCE IN COURT .... as that what the phrase means. Just a side thought really ... !! Off to bed now ... night night ... !!

Hi George, Ok - 10 days in breach of the regulations governing the issue of DNs - so thats a starter - but not much on its own - (as the Brandon case successfuly aruged the time for remedy was not a consideration, as the debtor had not intention of rectifying anway ...) The prescribed terms must be within the 4 corners of the exeuted agreement .... the terms and conditions can be embodied, so they don't need to be in the executed doc itself .... but the prescribed terms must be... subtle difference ... !! So are the pres terms in the agreement that has been sent to you ... prescribed terms are ... rate of interest annual rate of interest (APR) duration (if its a loan) amount of loan or credit for a credit card cancellation rights PPI details if taken The agreement must also have the correct prescribed heading - showing at the very least that it is a "Credit Agreement Regualted by the Consumer Credit Act 1974." Can you post up a copy of the agreement you have been provided with - and I will have a quick look over see if I can spot anything. Apols if its already up, havent the time to search through the thread for it.... Abs x