Received all statements for account having sent DPA SAR to Edinbrugh returned from Southend on Sea (old Universa office) "We consider charges are fair" blah blah

Charges £250 but calculated interest at the rate they charged me at the time which provides another £600. Will see what happens after the request for repayment arrives.

Actually this account closed in July 2003. Would it be prudent to charge the interest at the 1.873 per month for the period from the ' date of offence' to the date the account closed and then claim the 8% after that till now?

This is the letter I sent followed by their reply:

Mrs M Carpenter

Data Protection Officer

The Royal Bank of Scotland plc,

Credit Card Operations

Regulatory Risk

PO Box 6050

Southend on Sea. SS99 1WL xxxx 2006

Dear Mrs Carpenter

Re: Universa Credit Card: xxxxxxxxxxxx

I thank you for your letter of xx May regarding the DPA Subject Access Report xxxxxxxxxx

Upon examination of said report it appears that unlawful charges have been made against my account and I am writing to ask you to refund to me these charges plus the interest calculated at the rate you charged which you have levied over the period of the account. Your department may not be the one dealing with this now that my enquiry has progressed, but I trust you will forward it to the correct department without delay.

I now understand that this regime of fee charges which you had been applying to my account in relation to late payment and returned item fees are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations. Penalty charges are unrecoverable at common law, the bank knows that, they are fully automated transactions and do not reflect any liquidated or actual loss to the bank. Therefore, I would like them repaid forthwith.

You may consider your charges fair reasonable and compliant but that flies in the face of factual common law and I consider that your representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them.

If you say that they are lawful then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been applying as a result of my breaches in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

Your responsibilities

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law. You clearly haven’t done that.

Your concealment of the true nature of these charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

What I require

I calculate that you have taken £295 in penalty charges plus £189.82 which you have charged me in interest at the contractual rate of the credit card. This equates to the introductory period at 0.639% per month and thereafter at 1.873% per month until 4th July 2003 when the account was closed. Totalling £484.82. Should this claim arrive in Court I will be awarded 8% on the totals from the dates of the offences calculated to be £101.17p. This brings the total to £585.99p. This 8% is what I could have earned if I had had the funds at the time.

My targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets or proceed to court.

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting unconditionally my request for £585.99 repayment and letting me know a date by which I will receive this.

If you do not respond or you do not respond positively within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action before taking court procedures to claim these unlawful charges. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

After that there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the deadline.

I trust that will not be necessary and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

Andrew1

The Reply:

Credit Card Operations

Customer Contact Centre

P0 Box 6050

Southend-on-Sea

Essex SS99 1WL

Telephone: 0870 9070 010

Facsime: 0870 1541 333

Website: http://www.rbs.co.uk

xxxx June 2006

Account Number: xxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear Andrew1

Thank you for your letter dated xx June 2006 addressed to Mrs M Carpenter, which has been passed to me to reply.

We believe that our charges are fair, reasonable and transparent. We consider that the amounts debited to your account have been applied strictly in accordance with your agreement with us and our published tariff, which we are satisfied, complies with all applicable laws and regulations. We are also committed to ensuring the transparency of the information that we give to our customers about the operation of our products.

Against that background, we must differ to the views expressed in your letter. Accordingly, the charges that have been applied to your account will stand.

Therefore, in light of the previous letters that you have exchanged with Mrs M Carpenter, I think that it is appropriate that I tell you that this is the bank’s final response to you on this matter. You may now wish to seek the opinion of the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) and the enclosed leaflet, which is produced by the FOS, tells you more about the scheme and how to contact them.

You can also visit the website wwwfinancial-ombudsman.orq.uk and if you do write to the FOS then you should provide them with a copy of this letter within six months of the time that you receive it. You should also send copies of any documentation that you feel supports your case.

Yours sincerely

James Lansdale

Contact Centre Manager

In veiw of the fact they say " this is the banks final response " I guess it's an LBA ?

I wrote again to the RBS updating the charges and bringing a few home truths:

Mr James Lansdale

Contact Centre Manager

The Royal Bank of Scotland plc,

Credit Card Operations

Regulatory Risk

PO Box 6050

Southend on Sea. SS99 1WL xx August 2006

Dear Mr Lansdale

Re: Universa Credit Card: xxxxxxxxx

I thank you for your letter of xxxxx regarding the above account and my claim for unlawful penalty charges to be returned.

I regret that certain things have distracted me of late from pursuing this issue and I have not had the opportunity to continue the dialogue. Now that my time is free again I wish to reassert my request for these charges to be refunded rather than follow the route of thousands of others and wasting both your time, my time and the courts time by having to formalise legal proceedings.

I therefore give you the opportunity to reconsider your position before I continue with the legal process.

So far, in one forum alone there has been over £1.5 million returned by banks and credit card companies since March of this year following claims for charges exactly the same as this one, the Royal Bank of Scotland are included.

I am quite happy to continue with the claim through the court, but in an effort to save you legal costs, time and trouble my offer stands for a full refund of charges applied to my account as per attached schedule plus interest at the contractual rate applied to my account at 22.476% within fourteen days or I will unfortunately have no alternative but to take the legal route.

Perhaps you will inform me which route you prefer.

As a matter of conjecture, may I also add that this resistance by the bank to abide by the rule of law on one hand and ignoring it on the other for it’s own benefit is one which I find particularly in bad taste. The bank has a considerable amount of legal advice at it’s disposal yet still it rejects any question that these charges are unlawful when the laws of the land are extremely plain to see and have been for many, many years. It is only a matter of time before it is proved in one case or another that the bank ought to have known these to be unlawful penalties and if and when that happens the Statute of Limitation Act will be deemed irrelevant and your claims against you will go sky high. Would it not be more admirable and truthful to repay these charges and admit wrongdoing than consistently force people to challenge you by using the legal system?

It is an implied contract that you would abide by the rule of law and that you are clearly in breach of despite your referrals to Terms and Conditions. Heads should roll for this contempt for the law.

Anyway, now I have that off my chest perhaps you might reconsider your position and repay me these charges and we can all get on with life.

My claim amounts to £723.79 as per attached schedule. Toady is xxAugust. I will expect this to arrive Monday xth August and would expect your reply by xt August. If I hear nothing legal action will commence without further notice. I trust this will not be necessary.

I look forward to hearing from you by return.

Yours sincerely

Their reply:

Royal Bank of Scotland

Cards Customer Services

PD Box 5747

Southend-on-Sea

Essex SS1 9AJ

Telephone: 0870 9070 010

Facsimile: 0870 1541 333

Website: http://www.rbs.co.uk

Account Number: xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear Mr xxx

Thank you for your letter dated xx xx xx regarding your complaint concerning late payment charges, which has been passed for my attention in my capacity of being responsible for all final response letters issued.

I would firstly like to say how sorry I was to learn of your dissatisfaction with the charges applied to your account. I have fully considered the comments made by you and reviewed your account and I am hopeful that this matter could be resolved amicably.

Our late payment fees/over limit fees were previously £20. The Royal Bank of Scotland Group (RBSG), whilst strongly disagreeing with the OFT’s legal position on credit card default charges, has lowered its late payment and over limit fees for credit cards to £12 with effect from 28 June 2006.

RBSG is committed to ensuring that its customers understand its charges and is transparent in the communication of its charges to customers. There is no need for customers to incur administration charges at all if they manage their account in line with the terms and conditions they have agreed to. However, in the interest of maintaining a good relationship, I have agreed to review your individual circumstances.

I confirm that had the charges been limited to an excess amount of £12, only the sum of £192 would have been charged, meaning that an extra amount of Li 03 has been incurred. However, in view of the time you have spent resolving this issue, I will be happy to credit the full sum of £295 to your account in full and final settlement of this matter.

Please indicate your acceptance of this offer by signing the copy of this letter and returning it in the pre-paid envelope supplied. Upon receipt I will be happy to make the necessary arrangements to credit your account.

I hope the above has been of assistance to you and I thank you for allowing me to address your concerns

Yours sincerely

Paula Mound

Executive Complaints Supervisor

Telephone: 01702 371250

I xxxxxxxxx account number xxxxxxxxxx hereby accept the sum of £295 in full and final settlement of my complaint.

Signed Date

Having been kind enough to give her direct telephone number I thought I'd telephone and ask if they would prefer to see me at court and would they like to reconsider.

To my amazement I was told that they have paid no one interest only the charges and I would be the FIRST to get it - BRING IT ON I SAY

As my request was not within the boundaries of this poor ( but very pleasant) lady

to make a decision on ( she' is only the EXECUTIVE COMPLAINTS SUPERVISOR after all ! ) She would have to go and speak to the legal department.

I am waiting to hear what she comes back with....

I reiterated, for the benefit of those interested in the negotiation route, that rather than all the extra legal costs, waste of court time etc that both parties will need to go through for what will be the same result why don't they settle now and save everyone the time and cost and trouble... Lets see if it works.....I'll be back..

Still waiting, but had an email saying the legal department are debating the issue of contractual interest I've claimed rather than the 8%. Should know by Friday.

WHOOOOPPPPIE !!!!

Confirmed AT CONTRACTUAL RATE NO LESS!! full settlement - no covenants, clauses, courts nothing.

Just wait for the cheque and donations begin again!!

Thank you everyone for all the support

£723.59 Bring um on! :-D

Congratulations

WELL DONE MISTER!!! :D

How does it feel?

Wxx

Yes, indeedy, I agree all the above. Pop that cork.

I've never tried Vichysoisse, but I'm told that it's another dish that is best served cold.

Enjoy yours - I now look forward to mine, later !!!

It feels bl...ody wonderful. I'm sorry all you guys have to go to court. No doubt my turn will come with one of the others. I've posted the letters I wrote - it was jsut a couple of phone calls therafter selling the wisdom of this site amazing what a bit of knowledge and nearly 70,000 people behind you can do " EMPOWERING !!!! "

I wonder if a Mod might change my title to say I won Pleeeeeese !

Well done Andrew. Let's spread the news on the contractual rate.

WHOOOOPPPPIE !!!!

 

Confirmed AT CONTRACTUAL RATE NO LESS!! full settlement - no covenants, clauses, courts nothing.

 

Just wait for the cheque and donations begin again!!

 

Thank you everyone for all the support

 

£723.59 Bring um on! :-D

well done andrew.

i imagine the "Still waiting, but had an email saying the legal department are debating the issue of contractual interest I've claimed rather than the 8%. Should know by Friday."

is a key point as that would constitute written proof, how do we use that point if we dont have such written facts, anyone care to comment.

How about this? e mail text word for word!

Quote

"Dear Mr xxxx

Thank you for your telephone call on Friday regarding your

ongoing complaint with the Royal Bank of Scotland. Please accept my apologies

that I was unavailable to take your call. I have been out of the office for the last

two days, however, my colleague Julie has updated me.

I can confirm that I am still waiting for a decision from our

legal department regarding interest being allowed at either the 8%

court rate or the quoted contractual rate. I have today chased a response

from them and hope to be hearing during the course of the commencing week.

I shall advise you of the outcome as soon as possible, however, should you

need to contact me, please feel free to telephone or email me.

Your sincerely "

xxxxx xxxxxxx

Executive Complaints Supervisor

Customer Care Team

Cards Customer Services

PO Box 6050, Southend-on-Sea, SS99 1WL

hi andrew, how did you work out the contractual interest

I have already sent my LBA, only interest i included on my spreadsheet was the 8% from the date of the charge.

Hi Kevinjay27, I actually used Vamps spreadsheet, one of the earlier ones. She is now advocating the new ones in Google, but I had so much trouble getting my head around the interest issues I probably still got it wrong! Many people are starting to compound the interest rates and there's a couple of threads dedicated to interest rate calculation: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/7252-new-way-looking-interest.html and http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/6964-spreadsheet-interest.html which might be of help. The one I used was the complex credit card one for this account. Good luck

thanks andrew, but don't think i can change it now anyway, having already sent my lba away, but think it will be useful to use your letters, had the usual response from pre-lim, from a certain tommy mclean, seems to be dealing with a right good few claims at the moment, so going to e-mail a version of your letter, minus the contractual interest, don't think it applies to me anyway, as my account is just a royalties.

Actually I believe you can change a claim right up to going to court but you'd need to inform the bank you were seeking contractual rate if you went that route.

What exactly do you mean ' Royalties account '?

It's just a normal account, was yours a credit card account?

Any way lba sent and also an e-mail, of your your letter sent to tommy mclean, who confirmed today that he had recieved it, so hanging tight, to see there next move, would appreciate, a similar outcome to yours, stated on my e-mail, if it goes to court, it will cost them in the region of £800, interest and court fee's, thats not including cobbets fee, and the time for them dealing with it.

If not satisfied, i will be calling him directly to ask them to re-think, so hopefully your advice, will work for me.

Well done and good luck - mine was a credit card account yes. There are diffences but the same principle - we want it back!