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    • Please see my comments in orange within your post.
    • no i meant the email from parcel2go which email address did they send it from and who signed it off (whos name is at the bottom)
    • I understand confusion with this thread.  I tried to keep threads separate because there have been so many angles.    But a team member merged them all.  This is why it's hard to keep track. This forum exists to help little people fight injustice - however big or small.  Im here to try get a decent resolution. Not to give in to the ' big boys'. My "matter' became complicated 'matters' simply because a lender refused to sell a property. What can I say?  I'll try in a nutshell to give an overview: There's a long lease property. I originally bought it short lease with a s.146 on it from original freeholder.  I had no concerns. So lender should have been able to sell a well-maintained lovely long lease property.  The property was great. The issue is not the property.  Economy, sdlt increases, elections, brexit, covid, interest hikes etc didn't help.  The issue is simple - the lender wanted to keep it.   House or Flat? Before repo I offered to clear my loan.  I was a bit short and lender refused.  They said (recorded) they thought the property was worth much more and they were happy to keep accruing interest (in their benefit) until it reached a point where they felt they could repo and still easily quickly sell to get their £s back.  This was a mistake.  The market was (and is) tough.   2y later the lender ceo bid the same sum to buy the property for himself. He'd rejected higher offers in the intervening period whilst accruing interest. Lenders have a legal obligation to sell the property for the best price they can get. If they feel the offer is low they won't sell it, because it's likely the borrower will say the same. I had the property under offer to a fantastic niche buyer but lender rushed to repo and buyer got spooked and walked.  It had taken a long time to find such a lucrative buyer.  A sale which would have resulted in £s and another asset for me. Post repo lender had 1 offer immediately.  But dragged out the process for >1y - allegedly trying to get other offers. But disclosure shows there was only one valid buyer. Again, points as above. Lender appointed receiver (after 4 months) - simply to try acquire the freehold.  He used his powers as receiver to use me, as leaseholder, to serve notice on freeholders.  Legally that failed. Meanwhile lender failed to secure property - and squatters got in (3 times).  And they failed to maintain it.  So freeholders served a dilapidations notice (external) - on me as leaseholder (cc-ed to lender).   (That's how it works legally) Why serve a delapidations notice? If it's in the terms of the lease to maintain the property to a good standard, then serve an S146 notice instead as it's a clear breach of the lease. I don't own the freehold.  But I am a trustee and have to do right by the freeholders.  This is where matters got/ get complicated.  And probably lose most caggers.   Lawyers got involved for the freeholders to firstly void the receiver enfranchisement notice. Secondly, to serve the dilapidations notice.  The lack of maintenance was in breach of lease and had to be served to protect fh asset. Enfranchisement isn't something that can be "voided", it's in the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 that leaseholders have the right to buy the freehold of the property. It's normal, whether it is a "normal" leaseholder or a repossession with a leasehold house, to claim this right of enfranchisement and sell the property with said rights attached and the purchase price of the freehold included in the final completion price. That's likely what the mortgage provider wished to do. The lender did no repairs. They said a buyer would undertake them. Which was probably correct. If they had sold. After 1y lender finally agreed to sell to the 1st offeror and contracts went with lawyers.  Within 1 month lender reneged.  Lender tried to suggest buyer walked. Evidence shows he/ his lawyers continued trying to exchange (cash) for 4 months.  Evidence shows lender and receiver strategy had been to renege and for ceo to take control.   I still think that's their plan. Redact and scan said evidence up for others to look at? Lender then stupidly chose to pretty much bulldoze the property.  Other stuff was going on in the background. After repo I was in touch by phone and email and lender knew post got to me.   Despite this, after about 10 months (before and then during covid), they deliberately sent SDs and eventually a B petition to an incorrect address and an obscure small court.  They never served me properly.  (In hindsight I understand they hoped to get a backdoor B - so they could keep the property that way.)  Eventually the random court told them to email me by way of service.  At this point their ruse to make me B failed.  I got a lawyer (friend paid). The B petition was struck out. They’d failed to include the property as an asset. They were in breach of insolvency rules. So this is dealt with then. Simultaneously the receiver again appointed lawyers to act on my behalf as leaseholder. This time to serve notice on the freeholders for a lease extension.  He had hoped to try and vary the strict lease. Evidence shows the already long length of lease wasn't an issue.  The lender obviously hoped to get round their lack of permission to do works (which they were already doing) by hoping to remove the strict clauses that prevent leaseholder doing alterations.  You wouldn't vary a lease through a lease extension. You'd need a Deed of Variation for that. This may be done at the same time but the lease has already been extended once and that's all they have a right to. The extension created a new legal angle for me to deal with.  I had to act as trustee for freeholders against me as leaseholder/ the receiver.  Inconsistencies and incompetence by receiver lawyers dragged this out 3y.  It still isn't properly resolved. The lease has already been extended once so they have no right to another extension. It seems pretty easy to just get the lawyer to say no and stick by those terms as the law is on your side there. Meanwhile - going back to the the works the lender undertook. The works were consciously in breach of lease.  The lender hadn't remedied the breaches listed in the dilapidations notice.  They destroyed the property.  The trustees compiled all evidence.  The freeholders lawyers then served a forfeiture notice. This notice started a different legal battle. I was acting for the freeholders against what the lender had done on my behalf as leaseholder.  This legal battle took 3y to resolve. Again, order them to revert it as they didn't have permission to do the works, or else serve an S146 notice for breach of the lease. The simple exit would have been for lender to sell. A simple agreement to remedy the breaches and recompense the freeholders in compensation - and there's have been clean title to sell.  That option was proposed to them.   This happened by way of mediation for all parties 2y ago.  A resolution option was put forward and in principle agreed.  But immediately after the lender lawyers failed to engage.  A hard lesson to learn - mediation cannot be referred to in court. It's considered w/o prejudice. The steps they took have made no difference to their ability to sell the property.  Almost 3y since they finished works they still haven't sold. ** ** I followed up some leads myself.  A qualified cash buyer offered me a substantial sum.  The lender and receiver both refused it.   I found another offer in disclosure.  6 months later someone had apparently offered a substantial sum via an agent.  The receiver again rejected it.  The problem of course was that the agent had inflated the market price to get the business. But no-one was or is ever going to offer their list price.  Yet the receiver wanted/wants to hold out for the list price.  Which means 1y later not only has it not sold - disclosure shows few viewings and zero interest.  It's transparently over-priced.  And tarnished. For those asking why I don't give up - I couldn't/ can't.  Firstly I have fiduciary duties as a trustee. Secondly, legal advice indicates I (as leaseholder) could succeed with a large compensation claim v the lender.  Also - I started a claim v my old lawyer and the firm immediately reimbursed some £s. That was encouraging.  And a sign to continue.  So I'm going for compensation.  I had finance in place (via friend) to do a deal and take the property back off the lender - and that lawyer messed up bad.   He should have done a deal.  Instead further years have been wasted.   Maybe I only get back my lost savings - but that will be a result.   If I can add some kind of complaint/ claim v the receiver's conscious impropriety I will do so.   I have been left with nothing - so fighting for something is worth it. The lender wants to talk re a form of settlement.  Similar to my proposal 2y ago.  I have a pretty clear idea of what that means to me.  This is exactly why I do not give up.  And why I continue to ask for snippets of advice/ pointers on cag.  
    • It was all my own work based on my previous emails to P2G which Bank has seen.
    • I was referring to #415 where you wrote "I was forced to try to sell - and couldn't." . And nearer the start in #79 .. "I couldn't sell.  I had an incredibly valuable asset. Huge equity.  But the interest accrued / the property market suffered and I couldn't find a buyer even at a level just to clear the debt." In #194 you said you'd tried to sell for four years.  The reason for these points is that a lot of the claims against for example your surveyor, solicitor, broker, the lender and now the receiver are mainly founded in a belief that they should have been able to do something but did not. Things that might seem self evident to you but not necessarily to others. Pressing these claims may well need a bit more hard evidence, rather than an appeal to common sense. Can you show evidence of similar properties, with similar freehold issues, selling readily? And solid reasons why the lender should have been able to sell when you couldn't.
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Loanguard puzzle


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Hello everyone, I've been lurking for a while now and have been impressed by the people power i've seen on this board. I wanted to ask your opinion on something that happened to me recently.

 

In January I was looking at my current account, (RBS Royalties Gold) and noticed three charges, one was interest, one was the account fees but there was a third I didn't understand. I emailed my bank contact and he said it was my overddraft loanguard insurance. (I'm thinking WHAT Loanguard overdraft insurance?). Now, I am quite savvy about these things and know that I never agree to every insurance that gets offered to me and that I have, on every occassion when I have reconsolodated or changed my OD limit, refused Loanguard. So, I said to the guy at the bank that I didnt want loanguard. This was in January, in March theye were still taking the premium off, £28 each month. I asked the guy at the bank to establish why I was paying this and he went off and came back saying I had signed for it in March 2000!! It seems that I have been paying it ever since then yet I have never been sent a statement, and each time I was subsequently offered Loanguard I have refused it. I complained and said that I wanted my premiums for the last six years back. (£1300). I feel that it is reasonable for Loanguard to have been in operation for at least the first year after I signed the agreement but that Loanguard, (or the bank...or is Loanguard the bank?) should either have given me statements to show what I have been paying or they should have reviewed the situation with me annually. So far I have been offered just £260, basically the last 9 months premiums. Is the bank in the wrong here? Isn't it reasonable for me to expect to see something from the bank that confirms the service they have given me and what it has cost. I feel as if this ongoing charge is covert, relying on me to spot it and query it. Am I wrong?

 

I hope I havent made this too complicated!

 

regards

 

David

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Hi Dave.

 

Firstly, I'm not entirely sure whether £28 is a loanguard charge. Not that I am disputing what you are saying but if you look at this that Livelylad produced which shows all charges charged by RBS and their amounts for the last few years, you can see that the unauthorised overdraft charge is £28. On top of that £28 a month as an insurance premium would be a massive amount to be paying!! I'm not sure whether someone somewhere - either you or the bank - have got their wires crossed because I don't think that this is a loanguard charge. £3-£6 a month maybe, but not £28. Bear in mind they do couple together a lot of charges under the same narrative CHG ACC xxxxxxxx every month, so some of them might be loanguard premiums, others might just be referral charges or the royalties account charges (if you were a royalties customer of course) and therefore the £1,300 that you have calculated might be a lot more like the £290 they quoted.

 

I have written an explanation of identifying charges for RBS, you can find it in my signature. This might help you decipher what is what.

 

Anyway, in response, I must be fair I had a feeling I never agreed to mine either when I one day found out I had been paying it for nine months. That was a few years back and wish this site had been round then :D. What I would do is request proof that you have signed for it - if they can't produce it I don't think (though I may be wrong) they have a leg to stand on. Perhaps one of the mods or one of the more learned members can either back me up or prove me wrong ;)

If my post has been useful, tip my scales and let me know

 

Always start with the User guide!

Stuck with RBS charges? Click here!!

 

RBS CA1 £2794 SETTLED!!! RBS CA2 £503 SETTLED!!! HBOS CC £498 SETTLED!!! Barclaycard £705 (with CCI) ONGOING!!! NATWEST CA ONGOING!!! LLOYDS CA x 2, CC, LOAN ONGOING!!! HFC LOAN ONGOING!!!

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Thanks for responding to my post T4FF. Well I can only go along with what the guy at the bank has told me but he definitely said:

 

"The second charge of £34.81 is overdraft loanguard chg which is optional and can be cancelled at anytime but we strongly recommend you have this in place." I should add that my OD is £4200. Does the charge seem correct for that amount?

 

It was after he said this that he said he would dig out my approval form which he said he found, (took four weeks) which went back to March 2000. I have asked to see this but havent yet been sent a copy. After this he got statements and worked out the total amount i had paid was around £1300 since then.

 

Even if loanguard was agreed, shouldnt the bank provide me with a statement illustrating what i have paid and when rather than lumping it in under the title CHG. In every other situation where I am paying for something I expect to see a statement from time to time. Not providing this has made me effectively forget all about it, (even if i did agree it but i am not yet convinced). I want to challenge this but not sure on what basis to do so - any ideas?

 

thanks

 

David

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Right, for a 4300 OD that seems about right, sorry wasn't considering the possibility you had a larger overdraft. That said, you did mention £28 - if there are any flat £28 fees then they are OD charges.

 

Ok, so as far as statements are concerned when you get your bank statements there normally is a summary sheet that tells you the amount of interest to be debited next month, any charges that are going to be applied and if I remember rightly it also states your loanguard payment. I'm not entirely sure - been about 3 years since I had mine - anyone else got loanguard and can confirm??

 

If it is on this summary then you would have received this monthly so not sure that is worth complaining about. They problem is in the way they (imo) disguise it all under the CHG narrative and only on a summary sheet (which admittedly I never used to look at) do they tell you what they are ACTUALLY for.

 

Think the key to this is whether or not this signed agreement exists, the fact they are willing to offer you a refund smells of guilt! Continue to try to obtain the agreement and if they aren't forthcoming you may consider sending them an lba instructing them they have 14 days to comply before you take them to court. Consider this as a possibility in the next few weeks but try to obtain a few more opinions first ;)

If my post has been useful, tip my scales and let me know

 

Always start with the User guide!

Stuck with RBS charges? Click here!!

 

RBS CA1 £2794 SETTLED!!! RBS CA2 £503 SETTLED!!! HBOS CC £498 SETTLED!!! Barclaycard £705 (with CCI) ONGOING!!! NATWEST CA ONGOING!!! LLOYDS CA x 2, CC, LOAN ONGOING!!! HFC LOAN ONGOING!!!

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Having used to work for RBS(sorry), we were pressured to sell this and hint that it was necessary for o/d to be approved. I hated selling it more than anything else.

 

I recall it was roughly about 70p per £100 each month so your charges add up about right.

 

I also know how shhoddy some rbs filing can be so you can be a bit optimistic about them not having a signed copy of the loanguard agreement.

 

If they don'y, I assume you could do a different claim for this seperate from your bank charges claim as it is not a penalty charge.

 

John

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  • 2 months later...

Well, it's now July and I still havent seen the signed copy of my agreement to taking up loanguard in March 2000. It has apparently been posted to me twice. They say that they only have a copy (ie photocopy) and that I am welcome to come in to the branch to see it. I complained further about two weeks ago and spoke with the area manager who agreed to refund 12 months. She said she would write to me but nothing has arraived yet. What do you guys make of this please?

 

regards

 

David

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Another thing, I first asked about this in Jan 2007 and when I last spoke to them they said that they have a copy in the branch for me to look at. I asked to see the original and the gut at the bank said that they only keep them for 7 years so all they have is a copy. Yet when i first asked to see this it was within the seven year period. Is a copy good enough as proof that I signed this? We all know how easy it is to add a signature to a copied document. I am not saying that the bank would do this but is a copy good enough and why am i having to wait so long. They have asked me to come in to the branch to look at this but why do they seem so reluctant to send me it??

 

thanks

 

David

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  • 5 months later...

Hi again, some months later now and just writing to update and query futher if any good people can offer advice. I eventually received a letter offereing £327 in full and final settlement of my account. I completed this and sent it to the branch it came from but I never heard any more about it and the amount was never paid into my account. I recently queried this with my branch who said it had never been received and would i bring my copy into the branch for them to see. I havent yet done this but note now that there may also be a possibility that it was missold since i had a pre-existing back condition, (slipped disk) before i took this out. SO, taking into account the pre-existing medical condition that may have meant that the cover would have been useless to me if i subsequently suffered from illness arising from this and because of the covert way the charges are routienly applied without a review of circumstances, (ie suitability and willingness of the client to continue to pay), should i be able to recover the fees i paid on the basis of unsuitability and dubious way the policy is applied indefinitely without review? What do others think please? Note that even though i did actually sign the original offer (Aug 07) since it has never been responded to i am assuming that will now be void if they actually produce it, (then why didnt they pay it?)

 

Sorry for being long winded, i just want to be sure i have got all aspects across.

 

David

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