Dinkjames v HSBC Credit Card

[Dinkjames]

Hello all. First off, thanks for a great forum. I have learnt a lot from reading through the various threads, but need some more specific help now.

 

Outlined below is a brief(ish) history between HBSC CC and myself.

 

The credit agreement was entered into on 23/01/2003 according to my credit report. I got into trouble after losing my job when the company went bust owing me quite a bit of money. I basically buried my head in the sand, but now have to do something about it.

 

Here's the history:

 

22/05/08 - Letter from HSBC stating that after an account review, they have decided to terminate the agreement.

23/05/08 - Default notice received. Date to remedy breach is 06/06/08. Amount owed :£xxxxx.xx Overdue amount: £xxx.xx

12/06/08 - HSBC use their right to offset and transfer £xxxxx.xx from my current account to the credit card leaving an outstanding balance of £xxx.xx

18/06/08 - After complaining about the offset, HSBC transfer £xxxx.xx back to my current account and credit the CC again.

12/09/08 - Default is registered on my credit file for the amount of £xxxxx

13/10/08 - Last statement received.

03/12/08 - Letter from CapQuest demanding payment of £xxxxx

02/01/09 - Letter from HL Legal on behalf of CQ for payment of £xxxxx

13/01/09 - I write to CQ, HL and HSBC using a template letter from here making an offer of payment. I include list of creditors and Income/Expediture created on the CCCS website. Also request that interest and charges be stopped.

17/01/09 - Offer refused letter from CQ with a demand for a higher payment

23/01/09 - Template letter back with offer again stating I cannot pay more.

27/01/09 - Refusal letter from CQ again.

29/01/09 - Refusal letter from CQ demanding higher offer

14/02/09 - I resend the template letters stating other creditors had accepted offers.

24/02/09 - CQ write back say they are no longer acting for HSBC and have returned the paperwork to HSBC.

24/03/09 - Letter from HSBC stating that as they had not heard from me, they were passing my account to Metropolitan Collections Services.

28/03/09 - I reply to HSBC including copies of all correspondence between me, HSBC, CQ and HL. Again make offer to pay and ask that interest/charges be stopped. No response.

25/03/09 - Threatogram from MCS

30/03/09 - Threatogram from MCS

06/04/09 - Bailiff threatogram from MCS

07/04/09 - Letter from MCS saying that offer had been received and they needed Inc/Exp plus creditors to consider it. I never sent them an offer and the offer amount is £20 more than I offered HSBC.

08/04/09 - I call MCS to confirm receipt of letters. Refuse to discuss finances with them on the phone.

20/04/09 - I send a CCA request under CPR31.16. Reply required by 11/05/09

22/04/09 - CCJ threatogram from MCS

29/04/09 - Acknowledgement from MCS about CPR31.16 and they have referred it to HSBC and case in abeyance until they respond.

 

Since the default notice, I have made payments of £xxxx.xx to this account and they have added at least 3 late payment charges totalling £36.

 

My primary concern is the default notice on my credit report. I would like to get that removed and would appreciate some advice/tips. I believe the way to do this may be to prove that the default notice is invalid and/or prove that the debt is unenforceable due to them not having the CCA.

 

My default notice letter date and default date is 15 inclusive and 13 exclusive. My understanding is that thay need to give you 14 days notice plus 2 days to serve by post ie 16 days. I did not get this?

 

Secondly, the default notice states that if I do not remedy the breach, they will terminate the agreement without further notice and demand immediate payment of £xxx.xx together with interest. Two questions here. A) They sent me a letter before the Default notice stating that they had closed the account, so the agreement was terminated before the default notice was served. If you don't have an agreement, you cannot serve a notice? and B) They are only demanding £xxx.xx whereas the balance is actually £xxxxx.xx. If £xxx.xx is all they wanted under the default notice, then the account would have been settled when they did the offset? In actual fact they kept more than they should have and I have also being paying regularly since.

 

Sorry for the long post. I hope someone can give me advice as to resolving this mess and getting HSBC off my back.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Dinkjames

[cerberusalert]

For starters the DN is faulty they have to give you 14 clear days from receipt of it to remedy the default, they have not allowed service of it by post. With doing this all they can claim is the arrears up to the DN. Do not let them know there is a defective DN until the a/c is closed, once it is all they can claim is the arrears. In effect once the a/c is closed the balance is wiped out.

 

In the meantime, send them a SAR which will cost £10 http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca.html from this you will be able to determine what unfair charges have been added to both your CC and your current a/c which you can claim back.

[Dinkjames]

Do not let them know there is a defective DN until the a/c is closed, once it is all they can claim is the arrears. In effect once the a/c is closed the balance is wiped out.

 

To clarify the account closed status, I have a letter from HSBC dated 22 May 2008 and I quote "Following a thorough review of your account, I am writing to inform you that we are ending your credit card agreement" The letter includes a demand to pay the overdue amount of £494.11

 

The default notice was issued one day after this letter ie 23 May 2008. HSBC have stopped sending me statements on the account and the account has been removed from my online banking.

 

Does this imply the account is closed?

[cerberusalert]

One of the others will verify but I think they may have shot themselves in both feet. They have send you a DN giving you the opportunity to remedy an a/c which is closed. I don't think they have any further claim.

[42man]

Default notice is incorrect as CA correctly says.....wait to see if they produce the agreement too....and keep us posted - you might be interested in this too - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/170345-tale-dodgy-dn.html

 

As for the account termination aspect, i'm not 100% sure on this...it could possibly be seen as an unlawful recission of contract !!! Hopefully others will add to this thread.....

[Dinkjames]

In the meantime, send them a SAR which will cost £10 http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca.html from this you will be able to determine what unfair charges have been added to both your CC and your current a/c which you can claim back.

 

Thanks. Will send that off to them tomorrow and see what comes of it. Although I have original copies of most of the items listed in the letter.

 

Be interesting to see if they are the same.

[loopyjuice]

In the same or similar situation, would be great for any more advice on this, have they terminated the contract unlawfully and then issued a DN on a closed account, its very confusing, heres my thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/198630-hsbc-credit-card-help.html

[Dinkjames]

Well, I haven't received my credit agreement under CPR31.16, so firing off another letter today to MCS requesting the agreement and informing them that I regard the account in dispute until their client produces the agreement.

 

Let's see what I get back.

[42man]

Dink did you see this CPR31.16 victory ? - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/165349-smt37-morgan-stanley-goldfish-3.html#post2119750

[Dinkjames]

Dink did you see this CPR31.16 victory ? - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/165349-smt37-morgan-stanley-goldfish-3.html#post2119750

 

I did, thanks. Made for good reading.

[Dinkjames]

Time for an update.

 

MCS did not respond to my CPR31.16 request, so I sent them a letter on Tuesday stating that the account is now in dispute. No reply yet.

 

Send off a CCA request direct to HSBC on Monday. Got a reply from them today. All the expected excuses about the CCA not requiring them to provide a true copy of the agreement, etc, etc. Instead they sent me a Credit Card Request form (which I might add does not contain any of the prescribed terms) along with various T&C's from the last few years. I won't even bother to scan them up, unless someone really wants to look at them.

 

Monday a second 'In Dispute' letter will be in the post to them.

 

So, I would now assume that they do not have a properly signed and executed agreement, thus the debt is unenforceable. If they did, why not simply send it to me instead of stalling?

 

HSBC: 0 Me: 1

 

Oh, and they sent my £1 back too

[Dinkjames]

Update: Just got two letters from MCS, one dated 14 May 2009 thanking me for my offer of payment which they are happy to accept. Please complete the standing order form. Your last payment will be in May 2023 Love it!!

 

I have never made an offer to MCS. And all the offers I have made to HSBC with requests to hold charges and interest, have been met with stoney silence.

 

Strange thing is, if HSBC had accepted the offer in the first place, I would probably have paid them on a unlawfully terminated agreement and never found this site. Lucky for me

 

The other letter is regarding my request for the CCA under CPR31.16. They have referred the matter back to their client and will forward me the CCA, if it is still obtainable.

[cerberusalert]

And the circle goes on.

[Dinkjames]

Well, I got an acknowledgement from HSBC today regarding my SAR. They have sent me a form to complete regarding which branch of HSBC I would like the data sent to for collection. Will get that into the post to them on Tuesday. Let's see what that delivers as they are giving me the runaround with the CCA. The letter is actually signed by a real person:D

 

I sent my initial SAR letter to their head office at Canada Square. The address regarding the SAR request has come from HSBC Bank PLC, UK Data Protection Compliance, Griffin House, 2-01, 41 Silver Street Head, Sheffield, S1 3GG. Maybe a good one to use for SAR requests for HSBC then.

[ScarletPimpernel]

The Sheffield team actually know what they are doing - unlike MCS. MCS is, of course, just part of HSBC and only send out template letters. You will probably soon hear from DG Solicitors - also part of HSBC.

 

In my experience, they will eventually realise that they have cocked it all up, and give in - but they will persevere for a while.

[Dinkjames]

I got a response to HSBC regarding my In Dispute letter. They insist that the Credit Card Request Form is a true copy of my CCA and they have complied with my request. They have sent the £1 back again.

 

Is there a template letter to send them now?

[lexis200]

I got a response to HSBC regarding my In Dispute letter. They insist that the Credit Card Request Form is a true copy of my CCA and they have complied with my request. They have sent the £1 back again.

 

Is there a template letter to send them now?

 

Is the form anything like what you could have/did signed/sign?

 

If it is, and they've also sent you current and historic t's and c's, then they may have complied. Doesn't mean it's enforceable though (which plainly a blank doc is not).

 

If it's nothing like you would have received (ie from the wrong year etc), then they have not complied. Although they can technically send you a blank copy of any old agreement, it must be the same as what you would have signed at the time you opened the account - that is to say the details on it must bear relation to the details you would have seen on your form when you signed it.

[Dinkjames]

The credit card request form was for a Gold/Morrisons credit card. I have never applied for either of those two cards. My statements are all for a Platinum Card, and if I did sign anything, it would have been in branch.

 

It is not even an application form. There is not a single T&C in sight, never mind within the 4 corners of the document.

[lexis200]

Well they're talking pants then aren't they:rolleyes: They've not complied and they know it, hence the argy-bargying about it.

 

I suppose your choices are to keep on keeping on at them, or inform the FOS (may be a useless exercise though). Maybe TS could be of some help if they are stating this fulfils their obligations under the CCA1974?

 

If they pull the same rubbish with your SAR I think you can get the ICO involved.

[Dinkjames]

Frankly, I am not too concerned about them finding a CCA for my account. As long as they can't produce it, they cannot enforce the debt. The only outcome I would like is to ensure the account stays in dispute, that they cannot keep adding interest and charges.

 

I think they will comply with the SAR, as it is a different department and all the correspondence has been of a totally different tone, than with my CC.

[lexis200]

Just reading back over your thread I don't think you need to be particularly concerned at all about the agreement anyway due to the default/termination combo.

 

If it's definitely been terminated, as has already been said they're limited to the arrears amount and the agreement portion of your argument is just icing on the cake.

[diddydicky]

Just reading back over your thread I don't think you need to be particularly concerned at all about the agreement anyway due to the default/termination combo.

 

If it's definitely been terminated, as has already been said they're limited to the arrears amount and the agreement portion of your argument is just icing on the cake.

 

id like to see the original letter posted up

 

IF they wrote to you in terms that they had reviewed the account and decided to terminate it they may argue that what this meant was that they were about to start the formal process - which would be confirmed by the fact that you then received a DN (albiet a faulty one)

 

If however in that first letter they demanded a specific amount (ie the whole balance of the account be paid then it could be construed as a termination and an unlawful rescission

 

however i have this feeling that the letter does not go on to demand repayment and that it is in fact a pre warning of the action to follow

 

seeing the letter would help

 

notwithstanding the foregoing it will still have been unlawfully rescinded if they terminated after that fault DN but obviously the first one would be even better

[lexis200]

id like to see the original letter posted up

 

IF they wrote to you in terms that they had reviewed the account and decided to terminate it they may argue that what this meant was that they were about to start the formal process - which would be confirmed by the fact that you then received a DN (albiet a faulty one)

 

If however in that first letter they demanded a specific amount (ie the whole balance of the account be paid then it could be construed as a termination and an unlawful rescission

 

however i have this feeling that the letter does not go on to demand repayment and that it is in fact a pre warning of the action to follow

 

seeing the letter would help

 

notwithstanding the foregoing it will still have been unlawfully rescinded if they terminated after that fault DN but obviously the first one would be even better

 

Or just said simply that they had terminated without having asked for a payment (I've got this on a couple where it's definitely 'we have terminated', past tense, not a threat of things to come). If they have just said we are going to terminate though then obviously it's not what you want - you need an actual termination in one form or another.

 

DD's right, knowing the wording would be helpful:)

[cupcake68]

Hi

 

I am struggling with HSBC and was just reading this thread to get some ideas.

 

Is there any update?

 

Cupcake

[Dinkjames]

Nothing much happening. It has passed from Metropolitan to DG Solicitors to Central Debt Recovery Unit (all the same company) and backwards and forwards between these three parties. When DG Solicitors threatened legal action, I sent them a request under CPR for a copy agreement. They replied that their client is unable to provide a copy of the agreement as they cannot find it. So, it is dead in the water.

 

Now I get letters from DG and CDRU on a weekly basis offering me discounts between 20% to 30% if I settle in the next 14 days and they will mark the debt as satisfied with credit agencies.

 

I am just ignoring all their letters for now, as they are unlikely to implement court action.