Mental health discrimination

[Osiris_Slain]

I have found that if I declare that I have had problems with depression I get no job offers, but if I do not declare this I can be sacked for non-disclosure.

 

I have also had problems due to being quite highly qualified and any advice on how to deal with this would be a help as well. It seems that if you have a degree in some subjects, BSc(physics), people are afraid of you because you are intelligent. This means they see you as a threat on the promotion front.

 

regards

[Conniff]

I have found that if I declare that I have had problems with depression I get no job offers, but if I do not declare this I can be sacked for non-disclosure.

 

I have also had problems due to being quite highly qualified and any advice on how to deal with this would be a help as well. It seems that if you have a degree in some subjects, BSc(physics), people are afraid of you because you are intelligent. This means they see you as a threat on the promotion front.

 

regards

 

Unless the application forms specifically ask the question then I wouldn't volunteer it.

As for being over qualified. I don't think it is just the promotional aspects that worries them, it is why is a BSc applying for a job as a milkman, they worry that you are just seeking some temporary work until such times as you find something else, so they will have to advertise all over again for staff.

If you are looking for work not associated with your degree then don't declair that either.

[clavileno]

I have found that if I declare that I have had problems with depression I get no job offers, but if I do not declare this I can be sacked for non-disclosure.

 

I have also had problems due to being quite highly qualified and any advice on how to deal with this would be a help as well. It seems that if you have a degree in some subjects, BSc(physics), people are afraid of you because you are intelligent. This means they see you as a threat on the promotion front.

 

regards

 

I suffer from depression. My wife suffers (very badly) from depression. I run a business, but I would not employ either of us. I have had staff who suffer from depression, and they have been just as bad as I had imagined; I couldn't afford to do it again in most cases.

 

What is the problem? Why can't I (of all people) be sympathetic? Actually I am very sympathetic, but I run 2 small social enterprises and the problems that can occur (time off work, unproductive time at work, problems with other staff, mood swings, side effects of medication, etc.) are just too great to take the risk and do materially affect the ability to discharge duties. I have the evidence of this myself, but it of course does not affect all people and all jobs equally.

 

As to non-disclosure. Well, to be honest, if you do suffer from anything more than very mild depression then I believe you will need an employer who not only understands this, but who is happy to use your strengths and accommodate any needs you may have. If the employer rejects you "on sight" then they're not the right company to work for.

 

That said, you could be open and honest and detail treatment, any mitigating circumstances ("it was 5 years ago"), and so on.

 

As to your qualifications, I read for both a Bachelors Degree and Doctorate in Engineering; friends (kindly?) describe me as "educated beyond all employable limits". Again you have to find the right environment in which you'll thrive - a company that feels threatened by your education is really not the right place for you to be, irrespective of how hard you're willing to try to "fit in". And that "fitting-in" won't help your depression...

 

What type of work are you looking for? Or, more pertinently,

what types of problems do you like solving?

[clavileno]

Unless the application forms specifically ask the question then I wouldn't volunteer it.

As for being over qualified. I don't think it is just the promotional aspects that worries them, it is why is a BSc applying for a job as a milkman, they worry that you are just seeking some temporary work until such times as you find something else, so they will have to advertise all over again for staff.

If you are looking for work not associated with your degree then don't declair that either.

 

If the application process calls for your qualifications (whether an application form or by CV), if you don't declare it you can be dismissed, which won't help. Conniff, I'm afraid, yours is very bad advice.

 

Likewise if the application form / process asks for "any medical conditions or disabilities that could affect your work" and you don't declare depression (unless it has never manifested itself in any form that could arguably have been detrimental to work, or unless it is completely a thing in the past) then you must declare it. Getting sacked won't make you less depressed...

 

If the OP can articulate the sort of work they would like, there is much constructively to be offered here.

[minniemouse_81]

I would consider that to be discrimination.

 

I have be honest and have never ticked that box on my application. I have suffered from clinical depression for the last 2 years and have never felt the need to tell my employer that I suffered from depression as I just never really felt it was any of their business. As long as my work wasnt suffering then I thought that it was ok.

 

But in saying that though, if you felt the need to tell your employer later on down the track then its up to you. Most employers these days are pretty savvy with this kind of stuff and offer support programs which are in house. I think that a lot of organisations are becoming more tolerant and not seeing depression as the stigma it once was.

[chesham]

Most application forms now ask if you have any medical OR health conditions which would cause the employer to make special dispensations for or alternative arrangements (mainly in cases of physical disability).

 

However, depression and other mental illnesses are covered by the Disability Discrimination Act, essentially meaning that it is unlawful for someone (person or entity) to treat you less favourably than they would of a lay person. The difficulty lies in proving that they used this as an excuse against not employing you (or, in some cases, dismissing you).

 

At the end of the day, mental illness is still a stigmatised illness, of which people who have never suffered from it cannot really understand. I have and do suffer with depression, but would never declare it unless i was asked specifically whether or not it would affect my job. For exactly the same reason you would not find "Are you straight, gay or bisexual?" on the question page, unless it is for equal opportunities monitoring purposes.

 

My advice - do not declare it unless you have to due to societies stigma, but do not hide it - 1 in 3 people suffer with depression, even the word sounds like it's a majorly bad illness, but people still associate it with being upset, sad and unable to do any work!!

[davjoh]

If you have applied for a job and you we not offered the position for what you think may be reasons relating to your disability, you have the right to require the employer ao answer a statutory questionnaire, under Section 56 of the Disability Discrimination Act. You can serve this document under any other circumstances which you feel may amount to disablility discrimination in employment.

 

It is not a specific document, and you are entitled to ask any questions you wish that are relevant to the circumstances and would solicit eidence of discrimination.

 

The employer has eight weeks to respond. If they do not, or if they are evasive in their response, a tribunal can draw negative inferrences from this.

 

There are some guidance documents available from the Commission for Equality and Human Rights - seek them out.

 

HTH

 

Davjoh

[clavileno]

I would consider that to be discrimination.

 

I have be honest and have never ticked that box on my application. I have suffered from clinical depression for the last 2 years and have never felt the need to tell my employer that I suffered from depression as I just never really felt it was any of their business. As long as my work wasnt suffering then I thought that it was ok.

 

But in saying that though, if you felt the need to tell your employer later on down the track then its up to you. Most employers these days are pretty savvy with this kind of stuff and offer support programs which are in house. I think that a lot of organisations are becoming more tolerant and not seeing depression as the stigma it once was.

 

Of course it is discrimination, but it may not be illegal discrimination. It is not illegal to discriminate on the grounds of disability where it is not possible to make reasonable adjustments to working conditions to suit the disability in question. This is why it is important to be honest on the form. If somebody is plain stupid, is it illegal to discriminate against them for a job that requires intelligence? Of course not - they are simply disqualified on the grounds of not being up to the job.

 

If your depression is such that it hasn't caused you to take any appreciable time off work, does not have a negative impact upon your work performance (including working with others, dealing with stress effectively, and so on if those things are important) then there's no problem.

 

Before everybody piles in, by the way, I suffer from depression. So does my wife. I wouldn't employ her for almost anything right now, and I'd be pretty choosy about what I employed myself to do. But I do NOT claim that we are typical of all depressives. I work for myself, BTW, so it is only my employees who suffer my mood swings, and they're free to leave.

 

Depression is such a broad church. With an appropriate blend of medication and/or talking therapies and/or alternative therapies, it can be managed very successfully in a great many cases, although it can take years or even decades to find that blend and the NHS is pretty poor about doing it fast enough.

 

Many depressives will, however, suffer from side-effects, either due to the treatment or to the disease. Those can include personality effects, days of lost productivity, problems with interpersonal relationships, and so on. If the potential employer is not given a complete picture of the individual condition and, if necessary, the results of a proper medical review and assessment, how can they decide if the individual's disability (if we even treat it as such - if it is an illness capable of cure then it is no different to not hiring somebody currently suffering from a debilitating viral infection) is capable of being worked-around for the job in question?

 

I do get rather sick of this fallicy that every disability can be worked-around or that to not hire on the basis of it is illegal discrimination. It is not, but not disclosing things on your application form is an absolute offence of non-disclosure and can absolutely get you fired without any other redress.

 

One last thing from personal experience - if anyone has a history of attempted suicide in the last 5 years I would run a mile as an employer - the statistical evidence that such people will eventually die at their own hand is too great, and the risks in terms of psychological trauma to other staff, not to mention the difficulty of getting insurance for employees if that is an issue for your business, are just too great. If that's harsh well, so's life - not everything can be talked away with kind words and rosy thoughts.

[GlasweJen]

It's people like you who keep people like me out of jobs.

[clavileno]

It's people like you who keep people like me out of jobs.

 

Perhaps you could ellaborate? What is the extent of your illness, what impact does it have? What do you do and what jobs have you been turned down for? What are your qualifications and experience?

 

I've suffered from depression for many years. My wife has tried to kill herself five or six times in as many years. I've employed many people with depression in an attempt to be as non-discriminatory as possible, and been "burned" as often as I've been pleased, but I keep doing it.

 

But there are simple facts. Some jobs cannot be adapated to suit every disability. Some depressives cannot be accommodated in all or even any full-time job because of their illness.

 

If potential employers are discriminating against you unfairly and illegally, by all means challenge them (I would - I am not, as you seem to think, a hypocrite).

 

I assure you that I am FAR, FAR more sympathetic than most employers out there. What do you do? Send me a CV and details of your disability and I'll see if I've got anything for you. But don't just throw out blanket people like you comments because you happen to disagree with reality.

[GlasweJen]

I wasn't actually referring to depression just disabilities in general employers seem to think that if they can't fit you snugly into their work force then that's it, they don't even bother to ask what you need (in my case a break every now and then) they just decide it would be unreasonable to adjust and that's it. Sometimes I wonder if there's any point in disclosing anything (not a legal requirement due to right to privacy and section something of the updated DDA) and dropping it on them after i've been employed but i can't be bothered with another tribunal.

[honey5]

well i work for the NHS and thankfully they arent allowed to discriminate against people with disabilities (not because i have one) but i work with a lad that only has one leg, ive also worked with a consultant that was a manic depressive and also a diabetic, two great people

honey x

[Conniff]

I've suffered from depression for many years. My wife has tried to kill herself five or six times in as many years. .

 

Don't your think it is time you found the cause of this depression and changed things?

[davjoh]

One last thing from personal experience - if anyone has a history of attempted suicide in the last 5 years I would run a mile as an employer - the statistical evidence that such people will eventually die at their own hand is too great, and the risks in terms of psychological trauma to other staff, not to mention the difficulty of getting insurance for employees if that is an issue for your business, are just too great. If that's harsh well, so's life - not everything can be talked away with kind words and rosy thoughts.

 

You sir, are a discredit to your industry and your profession. Your attitude I feel is abhorrent and I pity your staff - disabled or otherwise.

[clavileno]

You sir, are a discredit to your industry and your profession. Your attitude I feel is abhorrent and I pity your staff - disabled or otherwise.

 

Well I'm very sorry, but since 40% of my staff have a disability of one sort or another that I work around, I'm quite happy to stand my ground. I have done far more to help those with disabilities and be flexible than the vast majority of employers.

 

As to the issue of suicide, I'm sorry but as an employer I have a number of duties; only one of those is to be non-discriminatory to those with diabilities. I also have a duty to protect the health and safety of my existing staff. Sometimes (as here) those duties are in conflict.

 

If somebody has been clear of suicide attempts for five years then I'm quite happy to consider them for a full-time position. If not then I have to think long and hard about the statistical likelihood of their having recurring attempts or being successful (there is a lot of published literature on the subject). I am entitled to take into account statistical data when forming my decision. The potential psychological damage to other staff is potentailly very large - if I do not take that into account when making hiring decisions then I'm exposed to legal action for failing to protect their interests.

 

What makes my blood boil about the whole thing is that there are so many on here who seem quick to judge within a framework some way distant from the real world. There are, of course, ideals to be pursued, but there are also pragmatics to be applied.

 

I have had one member of staff take a lethal (without prompt treatment) overdose whilst sat at their desk in my office. I've dealt with the problems this caused for other staff. I know of what I speak, I have gone out of my way to be as accommodating as I possibly can in business, and I'm very sorry if that doesn't accord with the ideals you obviously hold dear.

[clavileno]

Don't your think it is time you found the cause of this depression and changed things?

 

Yes, I suppose I could divorce my suicidally depressive wife and remove the strain that causes, but I don't think that would help her very much. Instead I try to manage it with a combination of therapeutic approaches. Sometimes there just aren't simple solutions in life, unless you think looking after number one overrides all other imperatives?

[clavileno]

You sir, are a discredit to your industry and your profession.

 

Do you know what industry I work in?

[cal37]

Come on people lets all chill a bit, season of good will and all that . This has gone a bit off track, let’s try and keep things civil please.

[minniemouse_81]

Clavileno,

 

It seems like you are in quite a situation with your wife and my sympathies go out to you and I have no idea about what you are going through as both a sufferer and a carer.

 

However, the advice that you provided to Osiris_Slain was neither helpful nor ethical. Certainly you are entitled to hire who you want in your own organisation. The only "legal" discrimination that you were

 

Unfortuneatly, your views on depression and employment I feel are offensive. But more to the point I find it quite sad. You are a discredit, but not to your industry or profession, but only to yourself and your wife. You say that you wouldnt even hire your wife at the moment, however, will you still be singing the same tune when your wife has recovered and seeking full- time employment. I doubt it very much. You would be shouting from the roof tops asking yourself why wont anyone hire her.

 

But the worst thing of all is that you are a hypocrite (your own words, no one elses). You justify yourself by hiding behind the fact that both yourself and your wife suffer depression.

 

I think that you would do well to stay self employed, it seems that you live by your own standards however distorted that they may be. If you were working for me and you were actively recruiting under that criteria, I'd sack you and walk you to the door myself, no questions asked. I would not be willing to risk my personal or professional reputation or open the company that I work for to the various law suits which would trail behind you. I wouldn't give a damn how good you were at your job, it would not happen on my watch!!!!

 

Organisations are very sensitive these days about being associated with any kind of discrimination because it can and will deter them from employing the best and drive their customers away. Everyone feels bad press no matter how big you are.

[honey5]

maybe your wife needs an admission for a short time? its nothing to be ashamed of and ive seen people come and go without another problem afterwards seriously i have

i also deal with the other end of the scale daily too and no its not nice at all, think the thing being with me i learned along time ago ( i found a patient "swinging" when i was eighteen) not to take those problems home

but you really cant condemn everyone that has a depressive state, they arent all suicidal, also not everyone that feels they cant cope with certain aspects that are diagnosed with depression are depressed, ive seen the silliest of comments written at times !! sometimes people just havent had hurdles in life and struggle at that moment in time

honey x

[davjoh]

Do you know what industry I work in?

 

No. Why - do you feel ignorance is not a particularly discrediting status to your industry?