SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[joesoap]

I know, I know, I'm becoming a pain in the bum. As well as the above (I've done well, haven't I? Unfortunately, all of my debts mounted up when we lost our business), I have a debt with Amex, collected by Stevendrake Solicitors. Because of a faux pas by myself I ended up with a CCJ on this one. Anyway, I got the CCA back but after showing it on here, everyone agreed it was just a piece of rubbish. I went back to Stevendrake for the real thing and this is the reply, "Re; your earlier request for a copy of the contract, our clients (Amex)are not prepared to forward you any further documentation, some six years after the Agreement was terminated, and five years after a CCJ was obtained against you" Despite my advancing years, surely I am not senile enough to think that this is legal. I wonder if Amex means they can't supply the original CCA rather than wont? I am about to go back to Stevendrake and state that Amex is talking rubbish and the account is now in dispute and forward a request to Amex for the original CCA. Am I right in my way of thinking?

[Seahorse]

I'd say you were spot on. There can't BE an agreement, and this statement to my mind amounts to a blatant flat out refusal to comply, rather than an apologetic, we're awfully sorry, but we don't have one to give you.

 

As such, I'd say it's time for the gloves to come off. Do they honestly think they are above the law?

 

I'm not sure what you can do about the CCJ after such a long time though. But I'm dying to find out.

[ladybird17]

the ccj will disappear next year won't it?

[joesoap]

Yes, the CCJ should fall off early next year. I think it's fair to say that Amex are taking the P. I'm off to post my new request to Amex now. I'm up in your territory tomorrow (well, the left hand side anyway, see post 2054) Iain. As usual, the mad geordies will be warmly welcomed.

 

Ian

[singletracker]

If you had not serviced the debt in the last six years they may be able to bring out the Statute of Limitations argument, but, given that you are still paying this debt, it is most definitely active.

It seems to me that Stevendrake are blustering and hoping to simply scare you off or feel that there is nothing more you can do.

Advise them the account is in dispute, that until you have an agreement that you owe them nothing and that you will be requesting all payments made returned, as there is no agreement for you to service. Is the CCA 12+30 yet? If so, point out that they are in criminal default and that any action they try to take is entirely defendable. Contact all the relevant authorities, shouting from the tallest tree what is happening. Let Stevendrake know this too. Oh, and that CCJ can't be valid if it doesn't relate to a debt, so you want that removed too! Send the "asking nicely" letter and point out that failure to comply will result in you taking court action against them!

Worked for me with a debt that had the surname spelt incorrectly, they wrote back advising me that the balance has been cleared (£100), the DCA called off and my credit record amended accordingly. Will be waiting to see if amended or removed entirely - more letters if it hasn't been wiped totally clean.

[ladybird17]

CCA is 12 (+2 for posting) + one calendar month.

 

Also the jury is still out as to whether it's "criminal" or "civil" offence.

[Seahorse]

A SURNAME spelt incorrectly?????? Hmmmm.

 

Just how many times has my FIRST name been misspelt, I wonder. I know of at least 2 accounts, and probably a whole heap of other liabilities.

 

Hmmmmm.

[singletracker]

Have the DCA's decided which yet though? I am sticking with "criminal" until I find out otherwise. I think it's that that thing of the louder you shout back, the more wary they become. You never know, they might decide to comply with the CCA.

[joesoap]

Just sending CCA to Amex now. A "duff" one was supplied by Stevendrake and it was only when I asked for a "real" one did I get the reply regarding Amex's quote. I am writing to SDrake now advising that the account is in dispute in the absence of a CCA. I might just remind them that as a firm of solicitors, surely they should know that an agreement has to be supplied on request (if it exists of course) and as it is nowhere to be seen at the moment, perhaps they would like to have my CCJ removed now, especially as the debt does not officially exist. Should give them something to think about!

[Seahorse]

You never know, they might decide to comply with the CCA.

 

Pffftttttt!!!!

[singletracker]

A SURNAME spelt incorrectly?????? Hmmmm.

 

Just how many times has my FIRST name been misspelt, I wonder. I know of at least 2 accounts, and probably a whole heap of other liabilities.

 

Hmmmmm.

 

I know it was a realtively small sum, but they appear to have climbed down. Name was incorrect on credit agreement, so pointed out that it wasn't me, particularly as they registered a default against my correct name whilst making reduced payments.

I thought it was worth a try and modified a template letter to suit my needs. Has to be worth a go if it is on the credit agreement? The reply has just crossed in the post with the SAR N1 filed asking for all documents in my correct name, as SAR clearly not complied with if details don't match. Didn't get default notice or sale of account either, so wanting those too. Will see what happens, no reply yet.Two weeks from me serving at court to court deeming it served on defendant!! Reply due on same day as MBNA due to defend my SAR N1 against them and just over a week later I have a hearing with Barclays!!

[singletracker]

Pffftttttt!!!!

 

I know, pigs might fly too.

 

Worth a go for the cost of the letter (Which I add to my claim). Ask for all money paid back in abscence of CCA, they don't seem to like that!

[joesoap]

A SURNAME spelt incorrectly?????? Hmmmm.

 

Just how many times has my FIRST name been misspelt, I wonder. I know of at least 2 accounts, and probably a whole heap of other liabilities.

 

Hmmmmm.

 

Seahorse,I didn't spell your first name incorrectly.

Oops, I forgot to ask. What is the Amex address for my CCA request.

[gizmo111]

Just sending CCA to Amex now. A "duff" one was supplied by Stevendrake and it was only when I asked for a "real" one did I get the reply regarding Amex's quote. I am writing to SDrake now advising that the account is in dispute in the absence of a CCA. I might just remind them that as a firm of solicitors, surely they should know that an agreement has to be supplied on request (if it exists of course) and as it is nowhere to be seen at the moment, perhaps they would like to have my CCJ removed now, especially as the debt does not officially exist. Should give them something to think about!

 

Just because a CCA is not priduced does not meant the debt does not exist - this debt has been admitted in a CCJ a long time ago - more info here

[singletracker]

Seahorse,I didn't spell your first name incorrectly.

Oops, I forgot to ask. What is the Amex address for my CCA request.

 

AMEX FINANCIAL SERVICES LIMITED

13 GOLDEN HILLOCK ROAD

SMALL HEATH

BIRMINGHAM

B10 0JT

 

You can find all adresses here, follow the link on the page for Information Commissioners http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/516-1-data-protection-act.html

[ladybird17]

singletracker - it's not the DCA's not deciding whether it's criminal or civil, it's us!!

[singletracker]

singletracker - it's not the DCA's not deciding whether it's criminal or civil, it's us!!

 

Oops, what I meant was that in reply to a previous post about whether it is criminal or civil, that neither we or the DCA's have yet to figure that one out fully, therefore, keep treating as criminal until you are reliably informed otherwise (on CAG), not that we should listen to what the DCA's are telling us.

Does that clarify my response?

[ladybird17]

yes - & certainly the bit about not listening to DCA's.

 

Well, I would listen to them if they ever had anything legal/sensible/helpful/polite to say....oops there's another pig flying by;)

[joesoap]

You make the request to Crap One and address to Mr Robert Udy, Executive Office Manager

 

As Fredrickson's have stated they are only collecting on behalf of Crap One, Crap One still own the debt.

 

Tell fredricksons to take a hike.

 

This is getting silly. I have just received a package from Fredricksons containing copies of all the STATEMENTS but no AGREEMENT. I didn't ask for the statements. My request for a CCA to Crap 1 has gone now so it makes the statements irrelevant!

 

Can anyone advise on my post 2054 please?

[Dotty111]

Hi guys I wonder if you can help me. I have a thread in the Lloyds TSB section but I have been reading this thread and it appears that this is where all the agreement experts are. Made a CCA request for credit card and a reply was posted by hand from my local branch on the last day of compliance. Sorry I can't scan it at monent but this is what it contains

 

Headed "Application form and Agreement" next to the heading is a box "signature for LLoyds TSB dated......" no signature or date and in fact they have stamped over this part "recd 11th April 2007" but this does not disquise the fact that there is no signature.

 

The rest of the one page form comprised of my details only address tel no details of employment etc

I have signed the form at the bottom is a box stating "this is a credit agreement requlated by CCA" etc.

Attached to this is another sheet "LLoyds TSB credit card conditions - bank copy which states address of lloyds tsb, loss or misuse of card details charges for cash withdrawals and foreigh currency, variations and personal data information.

 

I have also noted the following; the account number in the box on the form is not my account number for this card and it has been crossed out and the correct account number scribbled at the top of the page.

At the top of the page it states that "if your application is accepted by our signature below (no signature) and we send you a card then this will form the agreement"

Finally don't know if this makes any difference but in the box for my date of birth the details have been scrubbed out before it was sent to me but after it was photocopied from the origional document. It clearly shows (through the back) that it has been tipexed then scribbled with a black marker and then gone over in black biro just thought this was strange. If anyone could tell me whther this document conforms then i would be most grateful

 

Many thanks

[Seahorse]

Dodgy altered application form masqerading as a properly executed agreement, IMHO. Any chace of scanning it to let us have a butchers though?

[ladybird17]

constructive conjecture??

 

Sounds like an application, but it has been established that some applications are agreements - not many though.

Yup, any chance of seeing it?

[Seahorse]

Just because a CCA is not priduced does not meant the debt does not exist - this debt has been admitted in a CCJ a long time ago - more info here

 

Just because a debt exists, doesn't mean I could give a monky's about adding to a certain well loved debt purchasing company's coffers.

 

The deceipt, law breaking (allegedly) and general shabbiness of the way they operate preclude me dipping my hand in my pocket to put another tankful of petrol in the tank of my adversary.

 

Had they played fair with me, I might have been tempted to put my hands up. But not now. No way.

 

Whats the difference between a catfish and Cabot?

 

One's a bottom dwelling **** sucker.

 

And the other one's a fish.

[Dotty111]

Dodgy altered application form masqerading as a properly executed agreement, IMHO. Any chace of scanning it to let us have a butchers though?

 

I will try and scan it when but it will be when I get home from work this evening

 

Many thanks

[SteveH2508]

Oops, what I meant was that in reply to a previous post about whether it is criminal or civil, that neither we or the DCA's have yet to figure that one out fully, therefore, keep treating as criminal until you are reliably informed otherwise (on CAG), not that we should listen to what the DCA's are telling us.

Does that clarify my response?

 

After the 12+30 days the non-compliance is DEFINITELY a criminal offence punishable on summary conviction (i.e. in a magistrate's court) by a fine. (See Schedule 1 of the CCA74). It would be prosecuted by TS. That is the theory - there is no argument about the criminality of the offence. The practice is that TS have probably never prosecuted a S78 non-compliance. The problem would be compounded by the proof (beyond reasonable doubt) of the offence - is the document supplied (agreement form/photocopy/'cut'n'shut' or whatever) in compliance with the CCA? If no document was supplied then it is not too hard to prove - a dodgy photocopy might make a successful prosecution difficult however. There could also be issues about whether the document was sent/received/lost in the post etc..

 

If it could be shown that S78 non-compliance was endemic to a particular lender then their Fitness to Hold a Consumer Credit Licence could come under scrutiny. That is administered by OFT so who knows how long that might take!

 

I have posted on this subject a few times on other threads but the message seems to be getting lost. 12 days + 1 month of no agreement after a properly constituted S77 or S78 request IS a criminal offence. Whether it could ever be prosecuted successfully is another matter entirely.