SKY TV and the penalty charge - how far will it go? ** WON 21st May**

[Guest 10110001]

 

Anyway roll on Sky getting their papers, let's see if they fold as easy! Or is that one going to be a fight? Either way I am ready for it with 2 victorys behind me now.

 

Thanks for all your help again Buzby, you are a star! !

 

Simon:)

 

Simon,

 

Sky Subscriber Services Ltd is in Scotland, Ive assumed for the moment you are in England (or Wales/NI) How have you used an N1 to serve notice of proceedings?

[mooreda]

Watching with interest - all the best

[Just~me]

Simon.

 

I have been following your epic challenge against SKY and hope that all your hard work pays off.

I too await the conclusion and cant wait for the big cheque to hit your door mat.

You are a great character and have made me laugh at most of your posts. Please post the conclusion when you receive it....even if it didnt work out how you intended it too.

A huge thank you to Buzby for helping you out.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Just~Me.

P.S. Please excuse the picture of the wife, I couldnt find one of myself. :)

[IdaInFife]

Simon,

 

 

Any news???????????????

 

 

 

Idax

[indebtstudent]

Yes please! I'm watching eagerly too!

[buzby]

Simon,

 

Sky Subscriber Services Ltd is in Scotland, Ive assumed for the moment you are in England (or Wales/NI) How have you used an N1 to serve notice of proceedings?

 

Sorry for the delay in noticing this. SSSL is an English Company, only their call centres are in Scotland, which isn't the same thing. The company is Registered in E&W at Grant Way, Isleworth.

[Just~me]

Simon started this thread 15th June last year, does anyone know what the final outcome was.???? is Simon still with us. ??

I have done a search to see when he last posted, which was November last year.

Please let us know if anyone knows anything about his battle with Sky.

 

Just~Me.

[martin2006]

Man thats like watching a dvd with the last ten minutes missing.

 

Come on Simon what happens next?

[IdaInFife]

I think he has fled the country!!!!!!! lol

 

 

Last I know he was about to file the court papers but nothing since. I think he has been doing alot of claiming in different areas.

 

 

Yooohooo Simon.

[Simon7685]

Hi Everyone

 

Sorry I have been away for so long but as I think most of you know, I have some very serious health issues. I have been very ill since the turn of the year and spent a long time in hospital again. Which has resulte in me not being physicaly or mentally able to keep this thread upto date. I am a bit better now, so I will bring it upto date asap.

 

I have to go to the court today and will update it after that.

 

Thanks Simon:)

[buzby]

Sorry to hear that Simon - you've got us all willing you on... Good Luck!

[IdaInFife]

Welcome back

 

Glad things are getting better.

 

 

Idax

[Simon7685]

Hi Everyone

 

Well here goes......................

 

1. After filing the N1, Sky's solicitors filed an acknowledgement advising they intended to defend.

 

2. On 11 January 2008 the court advised they had submitted a defence and sent out AQ's.

 

3. The Defence

 

The defence is fully 9 pages long, it begins by setting out in detail the dates we joined Sky and refers to the signed contract we supplied them with. Interestingly there is no copy of this document contained within the SAR I received from them.

The next few pages of the defence concentrate on a character assassination from Sky. They go to great lengths to discredit by detailing every occasion where having agreed t pay by DD it was bounced due to insufficient funds in my account and then when we cancelled the DD instruction.

 

Sky then go on to advise how we agreed to pay the £4 charge for an invoice as follows;

"The INL (Invoice Notification Letter) enclosed an invoice (under seperate cover) for £42.00. This sum included the Subscription Payment of £38 which would have been due on 1/4/2003 (had the claimant not cancelled the DD instruction); and the invoice administration charge of £4 referred to in the INL. Payment of the sum stated in the invoice was due on 12/4/2003.

 

However as stated in the INL, the claimants did not have to pay the invoive administration charge. They could equally have agreed to complete, sign and return either a new instruction, or a credit card payment mandate, both of which were enclosed in the INL. The invoice was only provided to the claimants as an exceptional option for payment due to their refusal to pay by the methods specified in the agreements.

 

The claimants did not reinstate the instruction or set up a new instruction; or set up a continuous credit card mandate, instead opting to pay by invoice, despite being notified of the additional charge for this service. As a result, the claimants agreed to make subscription payments by invoice, and to pay the additional charge for the invoice service."

 

The next page and a half of their defence goes on to say that between April 2003 and November 2003 we set up a number of new DD mandates which were then subsequently cancelled and payments refused due to insufficient funds.

 

They have gone to great length to point out to the court how we failed to meet our payment obligations on many occasions, cancelled DD instructions and that DD's were returned due to insufficient funds. Also how on numerous occasions they suspended their service to us until overdue payments were made.

 

Basically a character assassination, to demonstrate that we were 'bad' payers and how they bent over backwards to accommodate us as customers.

Sky then go on as follows;

Between March 2003 and 14 August 2007 Sky raised and issued invoices for the Subscription Payments due for the service, together with Invoice Administration Charges of £4 per invoice.

 

On 27 August 2007 the claimants notified the defendant that they wanted to cancel their Sky Subscription account. In accordance with the terms of that contract the cancellation became effective on 27 September 2007

 

There then follows 3 and a half pages of Sky contesting my claims made in the POC.

I will either type them in full or hopefully scan them to post later today, if I can work out how to do it:confused: .

Back soon with details

 

Simon:)

[Conniff]

I have been following this since the start but can't remember, and haven't read back through, but have there been at any time DD taken out 'before' the date they should have?

 

If so, that is the reason that you were forced to cancel the DD and why on occassions there were no funds available.

[buzby]

Conniff, they did do this to me, moved the billing day back by 1 week (this was in 2003-4 and affected a good few customers ) I've not heard of it happening again, but this would not be a strong defence especially if the debit was taken a long time ago (they could argue the DD guarantee applied if the subscriber was so motivated ) but I take your general point.

 

Simon, do remember lodging a defence or an intention to appear doesn't bind them to actually doing what they say, indeed they may not turn up at all - so whatever happens, ensure YOU make it to the court on the appointed day.

 

Sky also appear to forget that THEY DO NOT ISSUE INVOICES, you can honestly tell the court that Sky have never issued any invoices that supposedly were to incur an 'administration charge. Hopefully you've still got their Statements to prove to the court this is what they issued (and not invoices).

 

Further, reading their defence, yes they are attempting to trash you, but two things come to mind. They say they've billed you the fee in advance, which you can have avoided if you paid by DD. That's almost blackmail, the fee they say they charge is for an invoice, you know - that thing they don't send you! (Or indeed anyone else).

 

You can also explain to the court it is Sky that is pursuing you relentlessly to pay by DD. You are fully aware that you can only pay out money you have received. Just as you would never issue a cheque with insufficient funds in your account, you cannot be held liable by Sky for the non-receipt of funds from your creditors. You cancellation of the DD was proof enough that you were unwilling for Sky to administer your financial affairs, especially when your received funds were not enough to remit by this method.

[Simon7685]

Hi All

 

I have tried to scan their defence to put on here without luck, so I am going to type it in one point at a time. There are 50 points!

 

Simon

[Simon7685]

1. This sets out who all the parties concerned are.

[Simon7685]

2. On 27 April 2001, Sky sent the claimants a booklet and a sky viewing card. The booklet contained contained the full terms and conditions of the sky digital subscription contract together with other related sky contracts. The contracts booklet also contained a contracts page which the claimants were required to complete and sign to confirm their acceptance of the terms of the main agreement; and a blank sky digital subscription payment instruction form, which contained 2 payment options for the service - a. A DD instruction and b. a continuous credit card payment instruction

[Simon7685]

3. The claimants completed and returned the contracts page to Sky agreeing to subscribe to receive Sky World with family pack channels package at a then monthly subscription rate of £34.00, subject to the ts & Cs of the agreements stated in the contracts booklet, which included the following conditions of the main agreement.

 

a. Definitions: "Subscription Payments" the payments you must pay us to receive the service.

 

b. Condition 2(a): You must pay us Subscription payments every month in advance in the way you have chosen in your contract. For both DD and CC options we will collect the amount due automatically from your account each month after we have sent you your first viewing card.

 

c. Condition 2©: We may change your subscription payments at any time by giving you at least one calendar month's notice

 

d. Condition 2(e): We may alter your DD or CC instruction if your subscription payment changes for any reason. We may also charge any other payment under this contract under your DD or CC instruction together with any payments which you agree we may charge under that instruction

 

e. Condition 6©: If you have missed any payments you owe us we can suspend the service without giving you notice by making your viewing card invalid

 

f. Condition 11(b): If you break any of the conditions of this contract, we can terminate the contract by giving 7 days written notice by making your viewing card invalid.

 

g. Condition 13: If we give a notice that is required under this contract, it must be in writing sent in pre paid post. If we send you any notice with other information the notice will be on a seperate sheet of paper and will be clearly marked.

[buzby]

These all are standard terms, and appear only to refer to their terms of trading. Their lack of interest in being paid by any other method (not DD or CC that they control) is significant, so I think that in the absence of their direct refusal to accept customers who do not wish to accept Sky controlling their payments, it considerably weakens their argument.

[Simon7685]

4. The claimants also on or about the same time completed, signed and returned to Sky the DD instruction form contained in the contracts booklet.

 

5. The DD guarantee provided in particular that:

 

(a) If the amounts to be paid or the payment dates change, Sky will notify you 10 working days in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed

 

(b) You can cancel your DD at any time by writing to your bank......Please also send a copy of your letter to us.

 

6. On 3 May 2001 Sky carried out the installation and activation of the service at the claimants home and on 6 May Sky received the claimants completed contracts page and instruction.

[Simon7685]

Frequency and consistency of Direct Debits

 

7. On 10 May 2001 Sky sent the claimants a letter confirming details of the instruction. The letter confirmed that the first advanced monthly subscription payment would be taken and that future advanced payments would be taken on the 1st day of each month.

 

8. The rate for the service has varied on a number of occasions since May 2001, from £34 to £45. On each occasion the claimants received an advanced notification of the variation. On none of these occasions did the claimants complain that the main agreement, the instruction or the DD guarantee was not being followed.

 

9. In addition, the claimants have cancelled, reinstated and indeed on occasions set up new instructions. Throughout this matter however, where an instruction has been in place, Sky has always attempted to take subscription payments on or about the 1st day of the month.

[Simon7685]

The dispute: December 2002 - November 2003

 

10. On or about 18/10/02 Sky sent the claimants a letter giving them advanced notification of an increase to the monthly rate of the service form £37 to £38 due to take effect from 1 January 2003.

 

11. Sky approached the claimants bank for payments on or about the following dates; 1 December 2002; 1 January 2003, 1 February 2003, 1 March 2003. However on each occasion the claimants bank refused to allow the payments to be taken due to there being insufficent funds in the account.

[Simon7685]

12. As a result on or about 5 December 2002, 5 January 2003, 5 February 2003 and 5 March 2003 Sky wrote to the claimants, informing them of the failed DD's and that Sky would make further attempts to collect the payments "in the next few days" from the claimants bank. On or about 16/12/02, 15/01/03, 16/02/03 and 15/03/03 requests were resubmitted to the claimants bank, on each occasion (apart from 16/03/03) the re submitted payment requests were approved by the claimants bank.

 

13. Sky contends that on or about 20 March 2003 it was notified by the claimants bank that it had refused the re submitted request of 15/03/03, due to insufficient funds in the account. As a result on or about 21/03/03 the defendant sent the claimants a follow up letter, this letter informed the claimants of the following:

 

a. You do not need to contact us unless there is a problem, as we will apply to your bank for payment of the outstanding balance along with your next months subscription on your normal monthly due date.

 

b. In order to avoid any interruption to your sky services it is essential that you make arrangements to ensure your payment is honoured.

 

14. However on 26 March 2003 the claimants did finally clear the sum of £38 outstanding via a one off payment by CC.

[Simon7685]

15. On 27/03/03 sky was notified by the claimants bank that the dd instruction had been cancelled. While the claimants have the right under the DD guarantee to cancel the instruction at any time, cancelling the instruction without re instating it, or providing sky with a new one in advance of the claimants next billing period for the service was a breach of condition 2© of the main agreement, which required the claimants to make advanced monthly subscription payments for the service.

 

16. On or about 28/03/03 Sky wrote to the claimants (the Invoice Notification Letter - INL) confirming that it had been notified by the claimants bank that the claimants had cancelled the instruction. The INL also said the following:

 

Because of this, I'll be sending you an invoice. Unfortunately you will incur an administration charge of £4.00 for this service for each month you continue to pay by invoice. To pay by DD/C, simply call us on xxxxx and we can take all your payment details over the phone, it's that easy. Alternatively weve included a DD/CC instruction for you to complete and return in the envelope provided, etc, etc.