GOT A COURT DATE? Important, please read......

[nicsussex]

Glad to see you quota has been raised.

[socrates333]

Thanks Gary

 

Have posted the draft to Lloyds now, cc to court will keep everyone informed.

 

Soc

[able]

 

 

2) The McNamara interview. The transcript is fine.

 

3) Any correspondance or documents published by Lloyds which refers to their charges as - "Penalties", "defaults", "imposed when you breach your agreement", etc. Check your old T&C's if you have them and include anything which suggests that the charges are imposed as a result of a breach of your account agreement.

 

I have a letter in which Martin Orton states that Lloyds' charges exist - "in order that we can recoup our costs". This was in response to a direct request to justify their charges, and no mention was made in the letter of them being any sort of "service charge". Please PM me with either your address or your e-mail address and I will post/send this to you to include in your bundles.

 

Simularly, if anyone else finds anything useful such as that, or in their old T&C's, etc, please let me have a copy so I can distribute it for others. Obviously you should block out personal details, and also I am happy to pay any postage costs if necessary.

 

 

pls can you pm or email me that letter as your pm box is full

 

also i was given all of 2 days notice by a court to file my bundle!!! can you believe it?

[GaryH]

PM me your e-mail address, I've cleared some room.

also i was given all of 2 days notice by a court to file my bundle!!! can you believe it?

Very strange. If your not going to make it in time call the court - I'm sure they'll grant you an extention under the circumstances. Having said that, if its the standard small claims directions then a day late won't hurt.

[GaryH]

Referring back to this in post #1;

Simularly, if anyone else finds anything useful such as that, or in their old T&C's, etc, please let me have a copy so I can distribute it for others. Obviously you should block out personal details, and also I am happy to pay any postage costs if necessary.

Has anyone had a look at their old T&C's, etc? It would be very useful if we could compile some material which contradicts the "no breach" argument.

[reading rebel]

Hi Pen,

 

 

 

Would you like me to send you the Martin Orton letter?

 

Hi Gary

 

Sorry but I am still finding my way around site and not sure how to PM you? but would also like the Martin Orton letter please. Submitted MCOL claim 18/4/07, so getting my court bundle together now.

 

Thanks

Reading Rebel

[GaryH]

I'd hold off on the bundle for the time being if I were you. You've got at least a month before you need to think about that. I can send you the letter though, all you need to do is click on my name, it'll take you to my profile where there's a "send personal message" link.

[Pen]

I have just read the back of one of my statements dated 1999. which states

 

Interest rates and limits.

any interest rates on your statement are current. the rates do not take into account of the compounding of interest over the year or of any chargers or fees

 

if your account becomes overdrawn without our agreement or if it goes over your agreed limit we will normaly charge a higher rate of interest-Lloyds TSB unarthorised borrowing rate+plus any fees for unauthorised borrowing.

How can that say that is not a penalty. if it's not a penalty why bother with the compounding higher rate of interest. maybe I will also include this with my court bundle if they hit me with arguments over CI

 

Gary is this the sort of thing you are looking for if so as soon as i can get at my old paperwork in the garage i will look to see what i can come up with

[amber_ellie]

I've checked my son's statements going back to 2001 but nothing is on the back. Not sure if this helps at all which I found on a letter dated in March 2001. It reads as follows:

 

When you borrow more than your agreed limit, we automatically charge interest at the highter Lloyds TSB Unauthorised Overdraft rate.

Dealing with unauthorised overdrafts involves us in extra costs. And when we have to deal with your account in circumstances like this there is a charge of £10, which we debit from your account.

We charge this fee each time your account goes over the agreed limit by £10 or more - and on each day your overdraft goes up by a further £10 or more. These charges continue until your overdraft goes below the agreed limit.

[rosygraham]

It appears that some claimants are now getting a bit sloppy with regards to bundles and preparing for court. We've seen quite a few threads recently where the claimant hasn't bothered submitting anything becouse its a "waste of time".

 

Ultimately, that may well be true in most cases, but to not comply with a court order is a very dangerous game and you run the real risk of having your claim struck out. There have been 2 claims in the last week or so where this has been the case.

 

As we all know, its highly unlikely that your claim will get as far as court, but even so, you should still prepare exactly as you would if you knew it was going to - I.e. get a good, solid bundle in ON TIME, and make sure that you know your arguements. Particularly in relation to Lloyds service charge defence. Read this thread -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/81799-issues-raised-llloyds-bank.html

 

What to include in your bundle

 

Clearly this will depend to a certain extent upon which specific directions have been ordered, but, IN ADDITION to everything else which you would normally submit, you should include;

 

1) The full OFT report. No need to print out the whole thing, but you do need the front cover, section 1 "overview" and most importantly, section 4.21 "Disguised penalties". You should put this in INSTEAD of the OFT report summary from the Basic Bundle in the templates library.

 

2) The McNamara interview. The transcript is fine.

 

3) Any correspondance or documents published by Lloyds which refers to their charges as - "Penalties", "defaults", "imposed when you breach your agreement", etc. Check your old T&C's if you have them and include anything which suggests that the charges are imposed as a result of a breach of your account agreement.

 

I have a letter in which Martin Orton states that Lloyds' charges exist - "in order that we can recoup our costs". This was in response to a direct request to justify their charges, and no mention was made in the letter of them being any sort of "service charge". Please PM me with either your address or your e-mail address and I will post/send this to you to include in your bundles.

 

Simularly, if anyone else finds anything useful such as that, or in their old T&C's, etc, please let me have a copy so I can distribute it for others. Obviously you should block out personal details, and also I am happy to pay any postage costs if necessary.

 

4) A detailed Witness Statement, which specifically includes arguements which tackle the service charge arguement and "cloaking". See the post below.

 

When you've submitted your bundle

 

In most cases they will pay around now, but if not, and if they don't submit documents, then on the day of the deadline for submissions (which will be stated on the directions order), you should inform the court of their non-compliance immediately.

 

Send the letter here -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/58011-sc-m-court-bundle.html

 

Also, if a court date is imminent you should have a good read of the guidance notes.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/guidance-notes/

I've received court papers which show that Lloyds have made a 10 point defence and so now I have to file a counterclaim immediately. It strikes me that the wording from point 9 of your witness statement would do the trick - do you agree?

I've also been given a court date of 14th June so have a bit of time to sort out my bundle.

[GaryH]

Is the extra point this ?

Furthermore,the claimant's claim appears to be misconceived in that the Claimant is seeking a refund of overdraft interest. There is no claim for refund of the authorised rate interest as it is contractually due and is a core term of the agreement between the bank and the claimant.As such the defendant denies that they are indebted to the claimant for the sums claimed under this heading.

The defendant will rely on the case of Emerald meats (London) Ltd.-v- AIB Group (UK) Plc [2002] EWCA Civ 460, which is authority for the proposition that a customer entering into overdraft arrangement could expect to pay interest on the basis of the standard practice adopted by the Bank

If so, what interest are you claiming?

 

Also, you do not counerclaim. You are the claimant, the defendant would be the one to counterclaim if at all.

 

You don't need to reply to the defence if thats what you mean, just press on with the AQ, if you've got one.

[amber_ellie]

I have a letter in which Martin Orton states that Lloyds' charges exist - "in order that we can recoup our costs". This was in response to a direct request to justify their charges, and no mention was made in the letter of them being any sort of "service charge". Please PM me with either your address or your e-mail address and I will post/send this to you to include in your bundles.

 

Thanks for the copy Gary.

Do you think we should highlight the "recoup" sentence so that it stands out for the Judge to clearly see it or is that deemed not necessary?

[GaryH]

I have just read the back of one of my statements dated 1999. which states

 

Interest rates and limits.

any interest rates on your statement are current. the rates do not take into account of the compounding of interest over the year or of any chargers or fees

 

if your account becomes overdrawn without our agreement or if it goes over your agreed limit we will normaly charge a higher rate of interest-Lloyds TSB unarthorised borrowing rate+plus any fees for unauthorised borrowing.

 

How can that say that is not a penalty. if it's not a penalty why bother with the compounding higher rate of interest. maybe I will also include this with my court bundle if they hit me with arguments over CI

 

Gary is this the sort of thing you are looking for if so as soon as i can get at my old paperwork in the garage i will look to see what i can come up with

 

Yes, definately. What they discribe there is a penalty. They're penalising you for exceeding an agreed (contractual) limit. If you could e-mail it to me Pen then, and anything like it, that would be great.

I've checked my son's statements going back to 2001 but nothing is on the back. Not sure if this helps at all which I found on a letter dated in March 2001. It reads as follows:

 

When you borrow more than your agreed limit, we automatically charge interest at the highter Lloyds TSB Unauthorised Overdraft rate.

Dealing with unauthorised overdrafts involves us in extra costs. And when we have to deal with your account in circumstances like this there is a charge of £10, which we debit from your account.

Yes, again this might be useful too. They are referring to extra costs involved when you exceed your limit again - therefore this IMO would make the argument for disclosure even stronger.

 

This bit is very good -

We charge this fee each time your account goes over the agreed limit by £10 or more - and on each day your overdraft goes up by a further £10 or more. These charges continue until your overdraft goes below the agreed limit.

The charge is used to coearce or threaten you not to exceed your OD limit. Therefore the charge is held "in-terrorem" - I.e. its a penalty!

 

Can I have a copy if I send you my e-mail address, or address if you haven't got a scanner? Block all the personal details out though.

 

I have a letter in which Martin Orton states that Lloyds' charges exist - "in order that we can recoup our costs". This was in response to a direct request to justify their charges, and no mention was made in the letter of them being any sort of "service charge". Please PM me with either your address or your e-mail address and I will post/send this to you to include in your bundles.

 

Thanks for the copy Gary.

Do you think we should highlight the "recoup" sentence so that it stands out for the Judge to clearly see it or is that deemed not necessary?

Can do, although its not really necessary.

[amber_ellie]

I'll scan and send you a copy Gary. I presume it is the same email address that you sent me a copy of the Orton letter?

[GaryH]

Tis indeed. Thank you.

[amber_ellie]

Done . My son was a "struggling" Uni student when that letter was originally sent!

[olliebollie]

To GARYH.

 

4) A detailed Witness Statement, which specifically includes arguements which tackle the service charge arguement and "cloaking". See the post below.

 

Apologies for my ignorance in this - but I take it I am the witness here?? So all my details should be included in the example letter you have shown?

 

Thanks

[manxlass]

Hi Gary, I'm new to this site and just reading through posts, I have filed a claim with MCOL, Lloyds have filed their defence so I am now just waiting to hear from the court, do you know on average how long this takes. Also I don't live in England, I used my mothers address in England to file my claim, do I have to appear in person or is she able to represent me? Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks:confused:

[Pen]

Sorry Gary, missed your post. I will scan it today.

 

Pen

[GaryH]

To GARYH.

 

4) A detailed Witness Statement, which specifically includes arguements which tackle the service charge arguement and "cloaking". See the post below.

 

Apologies for my ignorance in this - but I take it I am the witness here?? So all my details should be included in the example letter you have shown?

 

Thanks

Yes, you are a witness.

 

Hi Gary, I'm new to this site and just reading through posts, I have filed a claim with MCOL, Lloyds have filed their defence so I am now just waiting to hear from the court, do you know on average how long this takes. Also I don't live in England, I used my mothers address in England to file my claim, do I have to appear in person or is she able to represent me? Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks:confused:

Have you recieved an allocation questionnaire along with a copy of the defence? If not you'll get that next.

 

See these threads -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/11644-allocation-questionnaires-guide-completion.html

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/57708-draft-order-allocation-questionnaires.html

 

You also need to have a good read of the FAQ's and step by step instructions;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/24031-frequently-asked-questions.html

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/31460-example-step-step-instructions.html

 

then start your own thread here -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=11

[manxlass]

Thanks Gary, not yet received Allocation Questionnaire but I'm sure it will be on its way. Will have a read of FAQ's. Your help is much appreciated:)

[olliebollie]

Gary, Thanks as well from me.

I'm still waiting on the paperwork as well so will take a look at the links you've given for help and advice when completing them and all the other stuff I need.

I;m a bit worried about getting it all right.i.e. the bundle etc.

[Pen]

Hi Gary, still not been able to figure out the scaner, if you email me your address i will post you one of the statements. also whilst digging around today i came across some statements going back to 1995 with loads of chargers on but one in particular had a debit for loan chargers £246.67 have you ever come across loan chargers before.

 

Pen

 

Pen

[Pen]

Court Bundel Done & Posted to [problem] and Court,

 

Dread doing that again next Month

 

Pen

[GaryH]

Hi Pen,

 

Thanks, I'll send you my address.

 

Yes, charges on loans are also reclaimable, assuming they're late payment charges, etc (you know - the usual 'default' type ones).

 

Glad to hear you got the bundle off ok - at least you'll be able to just send of pretty much a duplicate next time.