Kandinsky v Alliance and Leechsters

[Kandinsky873]

Hello One and All.

 

I am with the Alliance and Leicester and have been for some time now. Following all the media attention that has been focused on the bank charges (which put me onto this site), I decided to go through my bank statements for the last year. Luckily for me I have kept copies going back to 1998. I spent a little time making up an excel spread sheet (I could have saved time had I checked the CAG library) and having entered all the bank charges that have been levied I found that I had paid, over the last 6 years, £2613.50 in charges!!!

 

Was I not impressed.. I knew that I had paid charges but did not expect that it was going to be this much. Most of the time it was for going slightly overdrawn by a few pounds and then being charged well over £75.00. I was even charged on a couple of occasions for failed 'Bill Payments' to a savings account linked to my current account in the same bank!!! Needless to say the more I looked into the charges the angrier I became and it was clear that these decisions were being made by a computer, not a human.

 

Having totalled the charges I have drafted my first letter to the bank which will be sent today by Special Delivery, together with a list of all charges. I doubt that they will pay up at this point and have already drafted the Letter Before Action (LBA). I fully expect to have to issue court notice, which whilst it delays my payment will increase the interest per charge per annum (about 0.0219% per day).

Anyway, I would like to thank all at CAG for blazing the trail for consumer rights and to those that have received their refunds I salute you for setting out the path. It is good to see that the small claims court is being used by ordinary people.

 

I will keep you posted on how I do........I have every intention of seeing this through to the end and to anyone else just about to embark on this route, "keep the faith and see it though"....there is plenty of support out there for you. It is about time that the banks and financial institutes realised that the courts system is not the preserve of business and let it be a warning to others that the 'Consumer' is fighting back!!!!

 

Regards

 

Kandinsky873

[Kandinsky873]

I have now posted my claim by special delivery and wait with baited breath for their response.

 

I have one question that is niggling me though. It concerns something that I read on the Which? web site concerning small claims court. The reason that I raise this so early is that having read a lot of the A&L threads it appears that I will reach this stage before seeing my money.

 

Basically they say "You are more likely to succeed if the amount of your unauthorised overdraft is small and you rarely exceed your authorised overdraft limit. You are less likely to succeed if you exceed your authorised overdraft limit by a large amount and you frequently do this."

Does anyone know whether this applies or if it has any impact on a possible court case?

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[younganfree]

I have now posted my claim by special delivery and wait with baited breath for their response.

 

I have one question that is niggling me though. It concerns something that I read on the Which? web site concerning small claims court. The reason that I raise this so early is that having read a lot of the A&L threads it appears that I will reach this stage before seeing my money.

 

Basically they say "You are more likely to succeed if the amount of your unauthorised overdraft is small and you rarely exceed your authorised overdraft limit. You are less likely to succeed if you exceed your authorised overdraft limit by a large amount and you frequently do this."

 

Does anyone know whether this applies or if it has any impact on a possible court case?

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

 

 

Hi, Kandinsky873, welcome.

 

I have to say that this comment is utter rubbish!

 

Not relevant at all in this context; claims vary from a few tens to several thousands of pounds - all are being refunded at the current time, (much speculation as to what will happen when the OFT report shortly though!).

 

A&L stated in the middle of last year that they would pay all claims taken to court but that they would close the accounts of the claimants as they obviously did not agree to their terms & conditions. So, if you are going ahead with your claim, make sure you open a parachute account ASAP.

[thesergeant]

One thing to note with All & Pester is that they have already been fined for closing an account after settling a claim.

 

Get your parachute account, but if they do take this action make sure you register the complain with the ombudsman.

 

Good luck :)

[Kandinsky873]

Many Thanks Younganfree and thesergeant for your comments. I thought the Which? web site were a little odd, but thought I would check. As to the parachute account, I have already opened one and will be switching regardless, but will wait to see what the outcome of my claim will be and if they close it in retaliation. If they do I will complain to the FOS. I am determined to recover as much as possible, now that my eyes have been opened. And the fact that they will wait until court action before settling does not bother me as the interest is going up daily and looking at charges prior to the 6yrs rule the interest will just about make up for the preceeding three years.

 

With regards the OFT report, which I believe will be published towards the end of March, I have heard (from the Trevor McDonald programme and other sites such as thisismoney) that they will recommend capping charges at £12.00, the net effect being that you will only be able to claim back the difference between say a £34.00 charge and £12.00. That said I would imagine that this will only apply to charges post OFT report.

 

Although I have to say that £12.00 does seam a little high too and there may be a case for reclaiming those, but that may be a little different. The main thing that all the reclaiming has done is force them to listen to the consumer and most importantly refund the rip off fees.

 

Whilst I do not disagree with banks making money, I do object to the fact that they are ripping us off with extortionet fees.....they would give the Mafia a run for their money on that score.

 

I shall be most interested to see what the OFT has to say and more importantly whether the banks will follow the recommendations.

 

Regards and thanks once again for the support. I will post updates as and when they happen.

 

Kandinsky

[Kandinsky873]

Here is a quick question that someone out there may be able to assist with, which is in relation to the interest that you apply to your claim.

 

As I understand it you can apply 8% interest per charge per annum for charges applied (this equates to 0.0219% interest per day. For example a failed DD charge of £27.50 applied to an account on 22 Mar 01 would attract interest charges of £13.16 (2175 days at 0.219%)

 

However, whilst discussing this matter with a friend who is nearing completion of his lawyer training he mentioned to me that he believed interest should be charged at 8% above the Bank of England base rate, which is presently set at 5.25%. Therefore instead of applying just 8% you should apply 13.25% interest to each and every charge.

 

Does anyone out there know if this is correct or have they heard similar??

[thesergeant]

No!

 

You have to make a decision as to which interest route you will pursue.

 

1. Apply what is commonly called contractual interest (some dispute here). They have take your money and you are contractually entitled to apply a rate of interest such as the banks unauthorised borrowing rate. You must state this in your prelim, LBA letters as it applies to your claim from the outset.

 

2. Statutory interest. This is the 8% rate, BUT IS ONLY APPLICABLE once you have started your claim at MCOL or County Court.

 

You really must read up on "contractual interest" before going down that route as you need a thorough understanding of the arguments. Many have successfully claimed this, as I have, but the banks don't like it and do try to avoid paying it.

 

Good luck :D:D

[Kandinsky873]

Well, the fun begins. I have posted the prelim letter and it was received by A&L yesterday, 7 Mar 07, signed for. Now waiting for the response.....most likely a 'not on your nelly.' Shame....what with the interest going up daily, which now stands at £704.99 on £2613.50 charges.

[Advoc8]

With regards the OFT report, which I believe will be published towards the end of March, I have heard (from the Trevor McDonald programme and other sites such as thisismoney) that they will recommend capping charges at £12.00, the net effect being that you will only be able to claim back the difference between say a £34.00 charge and £12.00. That said I would imagine that this will only apply to charges post OFT report.

 

This is uninformed rubbish. The OFT doesn't make the law, at the end of the day if a case ever went to court the bank would have to demonstrate the costs, not wave an OFT report in the air like a get out of jail free card!

[Kandinsky873]

Woah, don't shoot the messanger..this is only what I had heard and read on other sites. I am not saying that I agree with it! As you say, they would still have to show their true costs.....which we all know they wont.

[Advoc8]

Sorry, not meaning to shoot at you , my comment was aimed at Trevor McDonald and others.

 

Hope the claim goes well.

[Kandinsky873]

No worries Advoc8 , no offence taken...it can be a little confusing what with all the web sites and information out there. It can cause a little information overload.

 

That said, I have found all the threads, information, advice and support available on this site invaluable and I shall be sticking with this site. I have already advised a number of friends to come here.

 

I look forward to the day, not too long in the future, that I can add my recovered total to the survey and make a contribution to this site, not only in financial terms but also in experience.

 

Once again thanks for your comments and support.

 

Kind regards

 

Kandinsky.

 

 

PS. I have not seen a thread on American Express...is there one and has anyone had any success with them. I did have one a while back and know that I got clobbered a few times. I have details of the account etc, but wondered if anyone had any dealings with them?

[Kandinsky873]

I have today received the following response from the A & L. Very Prompt as they answered it on the same day......

 

From: Personal Customer Service Centre

BOOTLE

Merseyside

GIR OAA

 

Date: 7 Mar 07

 

 

 

Dear Kandinsky873

 

Thank you for contacting us regarding fees which you feel were unfairly debited to your account.

 

While I understand your concerns please be assured our fees are reasonable and competitive with those made by other financial organisations.

 

The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has commented that they consider the level of late payment fees to be unfair, however they were actually referring to late payment fees for credit card payments, which are quite distinct from a bank’s fees on current accounts.

 

Discussions are ongoing between the banks and the OFT regarding current accounts and once the outcome is known, Alliance & Leicester will review its position as appropriate.

 

As well as making our customers aware of our fees when opening accounts, we also continue to do so through our website, our branches I by telephone and on the back of statements. In view of this I do not feel that you have been unfairly charged and regret I cannot agree to refund your fees.

 

I am sorry if you are disappointed with my response, but as the fees have been raised correctly in line with the terms and conditions of your account, they must stand.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Signed (Printed Signature)

 

 

LE HURST

Customer services

 

 

 

As I say this was a very quick response. Despite offering a discount if they paid up in the 14 days they have chosen not to and wish to take the hard route. To that end, as my first letter to them was dated Mon 5 Mar, must I wait until the 19 Mar to send the LBA or can I send it now???

 

Also, is this a standard response and has the name LE Hurst come up before?? Furthermore is such a quick response normal, i.e. responding on the same day of receiving my prelim letter???

 

Advice greatly received

[Advoc8]

They were obviously having a quiet day at the office

 

I think as you gave them 14 days to respond / refund your fees and they've refused to do so you'd be justified in moving to the next stage.

[Kandinsky873]

Thanks Advoc8

 

The letter has been done and will be sent first thing tommorrow. I will post further updates as they happen.

[Kandinsky873]

LBA Sent and received by A&L. Just waiting for a response now. Probably will be along the same lines as the initial response.

[jansus]

best of luck-I am just starting with first letter - what did you decide to do about the interest charges in the end?

 

thanks

 

jansus

[Kandinsky873]

Jansus

 

I went for the standard 8%, rather than compound. I know the difference in amounts is quite considerable, but I did not want to jeoprodise my claim in any way.

 

That said, I know that some people have claimed compound, but this being my first I thought I would play it safe. The way that I look at it is that this is money that I thought had gone forever, so it will be nice to spend it on a nice holiday, as I have no overdraft or loans to worry about.

 

Good luck with your claim. I am just waiting for the response from A&L to my LBA, but I fully expect to have to do the MCOL.

 

Kandinsky

[givvynarna]

Hello there,

I'm just sending off my preliminary letter to A&L today and have read that ridiculous response you received from them. I can't wait to see my money, and like you, i didn't realise how much the total amount was! I also thought it was money i would never see again, but thanks to this site i can fight for my hard earned cash which, after all, is rightfully mine. A lot of the threads i have looked at about A&L seem to suggest court is the only way to get the money back, but i have a friend who claimed his money back from HSBC and he didn't even have to file an MCOL. Do you think A&L are just tight-fisted, stubborn gits?

Well, anyway, best of luck with your claim and i hope i get my money back too!

Best Wishes.

[younganfree]

Hello there,

I'm just sending off my preliminary letter to A&L today and have read that ridiculous response you received from them. I can't wait to see my money, and like you, i didn't realise how much the total amount was! I also thought it was money i would never see again, but thanks to this site i can fight for my hard earned cash which, after all, is rightfully mine. A lot of the threads i have looked at about A&L seem to suggest court is the only way to get the money back, but i have a friend who claimed his money back from HSBC and he didn't even have to file an MCOL. Do you think A&L are just tight-fisted, stubborn gits?

Well, anyway, best of luck with your claim and i hope i get my money back too!

Best Wishes.

Hi, givvynarna.

The threads don't only 'suggest' court is the only way - they spell it out that it IS the only way! A&L stated last year that they'd pay back the charges of any customer who took them to court, but would then close their accounts as they did not accept the terms & conditions. So consider yourself duly warned that you'll need a parachute account opened before you go much further.

Start yourself a NEW THREAD so you can keep us informed on your progress, or ask for help/encouragement if needed.

[givvynarna]

I've just posted my own thread, it's 'Givvynarna vs A&L'. Thanks for the advice, i hope this all works!!!

[Kandinsky873]

Morning All

First of all good luck givvynarna with your claim...stay the distance and don't give in. A&L will pay up but not until you see the whites of their eyes.

 

Well, I have just today received the response from A&L to my LBA. The reply reads :

 

Dear Kandinsky

 

Thankyou for contacting us regarding the fees raised on your account.

 

Having reviewed the circumstances surrounding your complaint again, I can confirm that the fees have been raised in accordance with the charging policy within the Terms and Conditions of the account.

 

Fees are published in our marketing literature for current accounts which provides customers with an informed choice of products before opening an account. We also provide copies of the Terms and Condtions of the account when it is opened. Any changes or ammendments to the Terms and Conditions are notified by post, through statement inserts and on our website, which complies with the Banking Code of Practice.

 

We feel our fees are reasonable and competitive compared to the industry and that they are clearly shown within our literature on our website, as well as being detailed on monthly current account statements.

 

In view of the above, I regret to inform you that our original decision concerning the fees raised on your account must stand.

 

I appreciate you may be disappointed with my response and may wish to refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service which you can do within 6 months of the date of this letter. The enclosed leaflet explains more about their service and includes their contact details.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

(Unknown Signature PP)

 

Brian Walsh

Customer Services

 

So that is their response. Well, no great surprises there and how sweet of them to refer me to the FOS and take the trouble to enclose a leaflet. I really do not understand their logic when they have already paid out to so many people. Quite obviously they think that this will make me go away.

 

So the next step is to complete the MCOL, which I have partially completed and will finish this afternoon. From reading other threads it appears that I should have the papers served on their Leicester address...is this correct? Also when completing the MCOL does anyone have any upto date and current advice or things t watch out for.

 

Additionally, when completing the court bundle, which I have prepared already but not printed is there any further case law that I can include that is more current or supercedes the case law already included???

 

I will post further developments when I have done the MCOL.

 

Thanks one and all and to those embarking on this journey....keep the faith.

 

Regards

 

Kandinsky

[Advoc8]

Hi,

 

You use their registered address for service of the claim: Carlton Park, Narborough Leicester LE19 0AL.

 

After completing MCOL make sure you send another copy of the schedule of charges to the court and to the bank, this needs to clearly indicate your claim number and both your name and the bank's name as it technically forms part of your claim and if they don't get it they can stall. I'd send this so it arrives just after the claim's been deemed served (5 days after you submit to MCOL).

 

The case law is still good law and you don't need to find anything else.

[Kandinsky873]

Advoc8

 

Many thanks for the quick response and great advice,

 

I am going to sit and fill out the MCOL now and make sure that I get it right...my charges are £2613.50 plus £719.94 interest plus costs etc, so quite a bit of money.

 

I have to say that it is quite exciting, but I have to admit the old bottom is giving it 5p 50p...a little scary

 

Shall let you know how things progress.

[Advoc8]

Hope all goes smoothly. One thing I forgot to mention is put covering letters in with the extra schedules just stating that they're to be attached to the claim.