Joint claim with seperated wife and own individual claim v Abbey

[quietzap]

And this is the prelim letter sent to Abbey, signed by my wife and myself: (on these letters my address and my wife's address appear to the left of the text on each page)

 

Abbey

PO Box 1109

Bradford

BD1 5ZJ

12.02.07

 

Request for repayment of charges

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: zzzzzzzz

 

 

Our request

 

We write to ask you to refund to us the unreturned charges which you have levied from our account over the period 28 Febraury 2001 - 28 March 2003.

 

We now understand that the regime of fees which you applied to our account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of our breaches over that period, in order to reassure us that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

 

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

 

Your responsibilities

 

We draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that we opened our account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

We are frankly shocked that you operated our account in this way as we had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as our fiduciary.

 

We consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived us into agreeing to pay them.

 

Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented us from asserting our right until now.

 

What we require

 

We calculate that you have taken £685.50 to which statutary interest will be added and charged if this matter comes to court.

 

An actuarial friend has recomemnded that we use your own interest rates, at compound, we have made this offer without such benefits and this sum is predicated on early settlement. Total £685.50.

 

I enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter.

 

Our targets to resolve this matter

 

We hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with us about this matter and we are writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

We give you 14 days to reply to us at Mrs Quietzap's address (left) accepting, unconditionally, our request in principle and letting us know a date by which we shall receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period,

We shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. We believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments and other very substancial resources with which to consider this matter and respond.

 

After that, there will be no further communication from us in this particular matter and we shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.

 

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

(His and Hers marks)

[quietzap]

Whoops! Oh well it was only there for 2 mins, banks prob not sufficiently interested to be on my case at 7.50 am!

[TANZARELLI]

Whoops! Oh well it was only there for 2 mins, banks prob not sufficiently interested to be on my case at 7.50 am!

 

Yes be sure not to post account details and names on the site. You never know whos watching.

 

Tanz

[bill-k]

QZ - I wouldn't suggest you contact them by telephone, unless you really are confident that you can think on your feet. It is best to get everything in writing IMVHO.

 

Have either of you had any response to your prelim letters ?

 

Regarding your DSAR - If you asked for data only over the last 6 years, then that will probably be all they will send you. You need to ask for all the data that they hold for you. You could try asking them for this in a follow-up to your original DSAR, but you may need to send them a fresh DSAR, and another £10. If you want the data quickly, then I suggest a fresh DSAR, but if you can afford t owait but can't afford another tenner, then try asking them nicely for the older data.

 

Bill.

[quietzap]

I may phone them to ask for the extra data.

 

I need to get these claims in, so any extra will be part of subsequent claims unless they put their skates on (unlikely).

[quietzap]

Oh, my wife, to whom they were suppose to reply on the joint Acc (her address is safe mine less so) says she has had an acknowledgement. I received a copy of the transactions on my Acc going back the 4 years to its inception.

[bill-k]

I may phone them to ask for the extra data.

Yeah - fair enough. Worth a go.

I need to get these claims in, so any extra will be part of subsequent claims unless they put their skates on (unlikely).

So let's get your figures sorted ASAP. Can you send me them now ?

[quietzap]

You should have them now Bill.

 

I calculated the annual compound interest for each charge to my datum date, and I have now to work out the daily charge for each from then.

 

BUT I am thinking than an alternative way of doing this is to charge them the rate they would have charged me on any given day.

 

So if their rate was 15% 4 years ago I charge them 15% at that time. And 28.7% from whenever that rate came into effect.

 

What do people think?

 

It has a sort of greater justice which might appeal to a judge I would think. Sort of balances things . . .

[bill-k]

OK - I've got the figures, mate, and I'll get back to you soon.

No, when we claim CI, we are charging the bank interest on the money they have been keeping. Because we are charging them that interest today, then we charge them at the current contractual rate which they are charging for the same kind of unauthorised borrowing.

 

The general opinion here is that charging any rate other than the current one is incorrect, and will not be seen as correct by the court. The greater justice is in charging what they would charge you, contractually. That is fairness and balance, IMO. You will quite possibly be offered a lower amount by the bank, and that is the time to consider any lower amounts to settle the claim, IMVHO.

 

Bill.

[quietzap]

I think a judge will be able to understand what I suggested above so perhaps it can be put in at the Court stage?

 

As I understood it Glenn didn't just get 8% as in statuary, he got 8% compound.

 

Can I offer the Court alternatives perhaps - the All Singing All Dancing 28.7% Annual Compound, my Advanced Unauthorised Tracker rate which shadows their rate on unauthorised overdrafts over the period, and 8% Compound?

 

Just 3 columns of figures, and the daily part from my datum date will be their current rate and a second @ 8%?

[quietzap]

I have two claims with the shAbbey, one joint on an acc which my wife took over as her sole acc - I have been proceding with this as a joint claim, intending for us both to sign all the papers; the other my sole acc.

 

The total of the two inc 28.7% compound interest is over £5,000, but each is well within that limit.

 

My wife is worried about her participation. If she withdraws as it were will the two end up in the County Court as one claim?

[quietzap]

I have emailed shAbbey to ask how the unauthorised overdraft rate which they did/would have applied to the joint and then my sole account has changed and when.

 

Prob a waste of five mins . . .

[sarahpp]

OK - I've got the figures, mate, and I'll get back to you soon.

No, when we claim CI, we are charging the bank interest on the money they have been keeping. Because we are charging them that interest today, then we charge them at the current contractual rate which they are charging for the same kind of unauthorised borrowing.

 

The general opinion here is that charging any rate other than the current one is incorrect, and will not be seen as correct by the court. The greater justice is in charging what they would charge you, contractually. That is fairness and balance, IMO. You will quite possibly be offered a lower amount by the bank, and that is the time to consider any lower amounts to settle the claim, IMVHO.

 

Bill.

 

QZ- the way that Bill has outlined is exactly the right way to go about it and he has given you exactly the right reasons for doing so.

[bill-k]

I think a judge will be able to understand what I suggested above so perhaps it can be put in at the Court stage?

He will understand it, but I doubt if he will be able to order that the defendant pays it, therefore you could lose out, even if you are being "kind."

As I understood it Glenn didn't just get 8% as in statuary, he got 8% compound.

I'm not sure, but that's not what you're claiming, here, anyway.

Can I offer the Court alternatives perhaps - the All Singing All Dancing 28.7% Annual Compound, my Advanced Unauthorised Tracker rate which shadows their rate on unauthorised overdrafts over the period, and 8% Compound?

Yes, we can put alternatives in our POC - although I wouldn't suggest 8% compound. But we do not put alternatives in out prelim or LBA's.

Just 3 columns of figures, and the daily part from my datum date will be their current rate and a second @ 8%?

I suggest separate spreadies for each rate. But don't worry about that, yet - just stick to the one rate ATM.

I have two claims with the shAbbey, one joint on an acc which my wife took over as her sole acc - I have been proceding with this as a joint claim, intending for us both to sign all the papers; the other my sole acc.

Sounds fine to me.

The total of the two inc 28.7% compound interest is over £5,000, but each is well within that limit.

Yep - that sounds about right.

My wife is worried about her participation. If she withdraws as it were will the two end up in the County Court as one claim?

Provided she agrees, I'm pretty sure you can represent both of you in court, if she is worried about that. I doubt if it will get into court, though.

I have emailed shAbbey to ask how the unauthorised overdraft rate which they did/would have applied to the joint and then my sole account has changed and when.

I don't see why you want to know that.

Prob a waste of five mins . . .

Yep - reckon so !!

[bill-k]

QZ- the way that Bill has outlined is exactly the right way to go about it and he has given you exactly the right reasons for doing so.

Thank you, Sarah.

 

So there you go mate - you're outvoted. Now you HAVE to do what we tell you !!!

[chezt]

Thank you, Sarah.

 

So there you go mate - you're outvoted. Now you HAVE to do what we tell you !!!

 

I'll stick a vote in too if it helps .....

[bill-k]

I'll stick a vote in too if it helps .....

Well, that does it then - losing is not an option !!!!

 

Believe me, mate - it ain't. I know these ladies !! Do what you're told - and you'll survive !!!

[TANZARELLI]

Thanks for the click

[quietzap]

Hi Gang!

 

If I had taken, say, £10 from shAbbey by way of unauthorised overdraft a year ago, and they hadn't noticed because of MY fiendish cunning and deception, and we reached today they might well decide to try and charge me 28.7% annual compound interest (Their current EAR, I have the lealet now.)

 

This would mean that they would want £12.87 back.

 

If they decided to try and charge me 28.7% as a DAILY Comound rate they would want £13.32, because they would be adding the interest to the principal every day, and then using that as the principal for the next day's interest.

 

That would be unreasonable, and they say 28.7% is their EAR (variable) - Equivalent Annual Rate. They also tell me the APR is the rate for a daily calculation where the principal goes up every day.

 

If their rate was say 15% Annual Compound Rate for the first six months of the past year, I would certainly expect that to be reflected in what they demanded from me, I would not be prepared to pay at the 28.7% rate for the whole period.

 

I actually hate arguements, but . .. life is like that.

 

I suppose most of the group hugs on here nearly end in court? lol

[quietzap]

Well, that does it then - losing is not an option !!!!

 

Believe me, mate - it ain't. I know these ladies !! Do what you're told - and you'll survive !!!

 

I look forward to getting my money back, a win is the only outcome.

 

Two wins actually.

[chezt]

Hi Gang!

 

If I had taken, say, £10 from shAbbey by way of unauthorised overdraft a year ago, and they hadn't noticed because of MY fiendish cunning and deception, and we reached today they might well decide to try and charge me 28.7% annual compound interest (Their current EPR, I have the lealet now.)

 

This would mean that they would want £12.87 back.

 

If they decided to try and charge me 28.7% as a DAILY Comound rate they would want £13.32, because they would be adding the interest to the principal every day, and then using that as the principal for the next day's interest.

 

That would be unreasonable, and they say 28.7% is their EAR (variable) - Equivalent Annual Rate. They also tell me the APR is the rate for a daily calculation where the principal goes up every day.

 

If their rate was say 15% Annual Compound Rate for the first six months of the past year, I would certainly expect that to be reflected in what they demanded from me, I would not be prepared to pay at the 28.7% rate for the whole period.

 

I actually hate arguements, but . .. life is like that.

 

I suppose most of the group hugs on here nearly end in court? lol

 

Are you saying this is a response uv had to your e-mail to them?

 

OR are you sayng you should work your claim based on the different rates they have charged you along the way rather than claiming the whole lot at today's rate?

 

If it is the latter then it's up to you if you want to do the legwork to calculate this but personally I really don't think it's worth it (or neccessary for that matter) ... Personally I'd just go with what's happening on the rest of the forum & claim at current rate ...at the end of the day it's up to the banks to provide more accurate calculations as to the exact amounts if they so wish to ... as a litigant person you just have to show uv done you best to provide info as to the best of your abilities ... which lets face it is gonna be no where near as accurate as what the banks can produce

 

It's really up to you tho - it's your claim

[bill-k]

QZ - I agree with Chez. As Personal Litigants we are not expected to know all the complications of how interest is calculated. As long as we make a fair effort with our claim, then it is up to the bank to dispute our calculations, and provide their own. After all, they are the experts at it - not us. The Abbey link here shows their Current Account Unauthorised O/D rate as 28.7% EAR.

 

Abbey - Abbey current account - Rates

 

You can bet your life that no branch counter staff will be able to tell you how to work out your compound interest from the EAR rate. If you really want to believe whatever waffle they told you in the branch about it being compounded annually, then OK. The EAR figure is expressed as an ANNUAL rate, and is the equivalent annual rate that the interest being charged would appear as after a year. But the interest actually charged on overdrafts is compounded on a daily basis, not an annual basis. If you want to make your claim against Abbey using their help, then by all means do so. But we will not be able to help you here in that case, with all the conflicting information you will be given. You need to decide if you want our help with this or not. Whose side are we on, and whose side is Abbey on ?

 

As Chez says - it's really up to you - it's your claim.

[quietzap]

Yes, thank you, it certainly IS up to me now, largely thanks to you, Bill and the site and the ohers who have been kind enough to encourage me here.

 

It WILL, however, be up to small claims courts ultimately I believe.

 

(There are two claims, not sure yet where to file the papers for the joint one, E4 ish, or Telford? If I do them in different courts - my wife live in Shropshire so I can justfy that - it may make them keener to settle)

 

And does anyone know of any claim settled IN court using 28.7% daily compounded? Or any other EAR daily compounded? Not just daily calculated, on the basis of the Principal at the beginning of the year, but daily compounded?

 

They do compound daily, but use a lower rate of interest for those calculations. The EAR is there to make it easy for customers to compare banks or authorised with unauthorised O/Ds mostly I suppose. No need for anyone to compound using an EAR.

 

Wish I had never studied Econmetrics, and my wife hadn't worked in a bank, be easier not to know about this stuff, but I am not going to pretend, and I have no reason to lie to anyone.

 

I am going to think about it and decide this weekend, thurs and fri are busy for me and I am getting over the flu.

[bill-k]

Take a look at the WON cases in the Abbey section, QZ.

 

The second set of spreadies I sent you calculate the interest using the "true" annual rate, derived from the EAR. This is compounded daily, using an annual rate.

[quietzap]

Thanks very much, I shall saturday.