WhatMoney -v- Lloyds - So **WON** (in court!)

[WhatMoney?]

Morning! I hope everyone's well, not too cold etc...

 

I was just wondering if anyone knows, what's the position on charges applied to your a/c after you've filed your claim with the courts?

 

Can these be added to the amount claimed, or would that entail paying the courts a (non-claimable) £35 to amend the claim?

 

I'd guess others must have been in this position; what did you do about it?

 

Thanks! x

[livelylad]

Morning! I hope everyone's well, not too cold etc...

 

I was just wondering if anyone knows, what's the position on charges applied to your a/c after you've filed your claim with the courts?

 

Can these be added to the amount claimed, or would that entail paying the courts a (non-claimable) £35 to amend the claim?

 

I'd guess others must have been in this position; what did you do about it?

 

Thanks! x

 

If you add them to the claim you will have to amend the claim which will cost £35 (which you can not claim back) and will delay your claim. When they settle I would ask them to add the charge to the total, If they refuse then its another claim. Also please be awre that they will be more likely to close your account if you continue to make repeated claims.

You can open a parachute account as a back up.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/13832-do-you-need-parachute.html

[WhatMoney?]

First of all, thanks, LivelyLad for your reply. Everything's been hectic here or I'd have replied sooner - sorry to seem rude!

 

Anyway, I was due to file my claim on the 6th, but it looked like they were going to charge my visa for accidentally paying £80 instead of £81. They did. So I held off to include the new charge in my initial claim. So, the story so far is:

 

1st Dec - S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)

5th Jan - Prelim (They dragged their feet on the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request))

22nd Jan - LBA

15th Feb - Filed claim at county court (Giving Lloyds an extra 9 days to respond to my LBA)

 

Today (16th), I came home to find a letter from them, posted on the 9th, saying:

 

"...believe it is fair to charge....on this occasion we are prepared to pay you £xxx. Unfortunately it is not the bank's policy to refund interest payments.....This sum will be credited to you account in the next few days..."

 

They go on to say they don't deal with credit cards, so that has been passed on to Brighton.

 

I'm not willing to accept a partial offer, and the interest they won't pay is the interest they took, not the added contractual interest. The thing is, I checked my account and they actually paid the money in yesterday (the same day I filed the claim).

 

So what's my best course of action? It's only a partial refund, and they didn't even send the letter until after the 14 days were up. Obviously it will cost me an extra (non-claimable) £30 to amend my court claim, which I don't see why I should have to do, as they haven't responded in the time-scale.

 

I'm thinking I should write to them explaining that I received the letter today, pointing out that they responded late and that I won't accept a partial offer, and enclose a cheque for the amount. Does this sound right? Does anyone else have experience of this situation?

 

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded post (it seems to be the only kind I do!), but any help would be much appreciated! (I'll respond quicker this time too )

 

Thanks x

[JodiSte]

Same happened to me. I received the money and on the same day they send me a letter with another charge of £30.

Should I start again?

[GuidoT]

WM - it is not usual for them to make partial offers to settle, I am not sure how your offer is worded but you may wish to send them a letter along these lines:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/25716-rejecting-offers.html

 

If you received a part payment, there is no need for you to file an amended claim - Lloyds should pick this up in their defence. Different if you wish increase your charges though, as Livelylad said then you would be required to file an amendment.

[WhatMoney?]

Thanks GuidoT. I think I was just a bit unsure of my position as they had paid part of the money on the same day I filed my claim. Their letter was basically (I won't type it all out, as much of it is standard):

 

"...We've already explained that we believe it is fair to charge you for extra services...

...It's easy to keep a running check on how much is in your account...

...Generally we don't agree to adjust any of these charges, but I can tell you that on this occasion we are prepared to repay you £XX. Unfotunately it is not the banks policy to refund interest payments. You may have read that we and the other banks are discussing overdraft charges with the Office of Fair Trading. Meanwhile we do consider each cutomer's position individually, and we are making you this offer because the amount you're asking for is less than the cost we might face in dealing with your complaint if you took it any further.

I need to let you know that this does not mean we consider we have any legal obligation to do so. This sum will be credited to your account in the next few days.

...As I've explained, these charges are avoidable...

...You've mentioned the new guidelines from the OFT...don't agree with...

...Credit Card complaints are not dealt with in Andover. A copy of your letter has been forwarded to Brighton Customer Services Recovery and they will be in touch with you shortly.

This letter is the bank's final response...Financial Ombudsman Service.."

 

I've responded using rejection letter 3, altered slightly to include balance of full claim including credit card, and pointing out that they responded outside the 14 day time limit. Does that seem OK?

 

(It's not that i wasn't prepared, I just hadn't expected them to do this now, if you see what I mean )

 

x

[GuidoT]

You are doing fine. My goodwill payment crossed in the post with filing my claim too.

 

Post up what is sent to you next, Lloyds are now saying that they have paid the claim and the courts now ask if you want to carry on with the claim. To which your response will be yes, I am presuming that your total claim is for more than the goodwill offer (I cannot see from above how much you are claiming).

[WhatMoney?]

OK, been a while, but anyway...

 

Received notice of issue on the 23rd Feb, followed by bank's defence on 20th March. No mention of the £85, just standard 9 point defence, so obviously just subtract it from the settlement.

 

Handed in my AQ at the court on the 3rd April. I followed the "New Strategy..." and included a request for disclosure and draft order for directions. I haven't received a copy of their AQ: do they normally send this to people?

 

Yesterday (17th) I received Notice of Allocation and a court date for the 30th. No mention was made of my request for disclosure etc: is this normal where they've decided not to go along with it? I'm in Sheffield, in case that makes any difference.

 

I haven't heard anything from SC&M in this time, but reading through the successes forum, I notice that a lot of people who handed in their AQ's after me have already had settlements. I'm confident that all my paperwork & figures are in order (less so as I typed that sentence, I admit!), so is it just luck of the draw who is settled sooner?

 

Also, I had a letter from the mediation dept today, asking if I'm willing to enter into mediation. For a start, I sincerely doubt that SC&M will be, but should I respond to this at all?

 

Thanks x

 

BTW, how do I change the title of this thread?

[nicsussex]

do they normally send this to people

 

No

 

is this normal where they've decided not to go along with it?

 

Yes

 

but should I respond to this at all?

 

Yes you should - there is a letter about somewhere I will dig out a link to it.

[nicsussex]

Here you go

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/83044-mediation-bad-idea.html?highlight=mediation

[fitsw6]

My mother had charges put on her account after we claimed. We ignored these charges until the 1st claim was settled - IN FULL. This 1st claim took a total of 298 days.

 

I then sent an email to Lloyds requesting that the charges made since our initial claim be refunded, and they refunded the second charges IN FULL in only 16 days!!!!!!

 

I also claimed extra costs in regards to the 1st claim and have been awarded these costs by the court - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/8428-my-mother-lloyds-tsb-4.html#post743626

 

More info about claiming costs here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/65921-application-costs.html#post563326

[WhatMoney?]

OK, small new development (quite amused me, actually!)

 

Lloyds paid a small amount into my a/c on the same day I filed the court claim (15th Feb). I realised when I got home and wrote to them that day to refuse their offer and asked them to remove the money.

 

I didn't hear anything back and they didn't take the money. Then, on Friday, I got a letter from them, dated 10th April, saying "..sorry you're not happy...maximum we are able to award...see you've issued court claim...if successful this figure will be deducted...not make any attempt to reclaim this money."

 

2 months late. Nice to see they're on the ball!

 

x

[WhatMoney?]

Well posted court bundles to SC&M and court this morning 7 hours!! I'm really hoping that once they (SC&M) receive it they'll realise I'm serious and settle. Not that I'm scared of going to court, it's just dragging on...

 

Having said that, they've dragged their feet at every stage - why stop now?!

 

Started preparing my application for costs though. Nicely detailed spreadsheet breaking everything down etc. One thing I'm wondering, though, is I noticed someone else (sorry, your name escapes me!) had their application refused by the judge as they didn't turn up at court to present it. This was in spite of informing the court that Lloyds had already settled, and not claiming for costs relating to attending court. Should I expect to attend court anyway to submit my application for costs in person? Any thoughts or experience anyone?

 

WM x

[WhatMoney?]

OK, I'm in court in 8 days and starting to get nervous (I admit it!)

 

I've read a few mentions over the last few days of it just being claims with contractual interest that are being defended. Any thoughts? Has anyone had a CI claim settled in the past week?

 

x

[GaryH]

Need some details please. Decent timeline if poss, plus claim details.

 

Have you submitted a bundle? What did it consist of? Have they?

[GaryH]

Sorry - I've just seen your PM which answers some of the above.

 

Could still do with some details such as the value of the charges and interest, etc.

 

Pen is in court tomorrow with a CI claim, have a read of her thread from about here -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/41729-pen-lloyds-tsb-21.html#post839795

 

If they haven't settled by a couple of days before then PM me again.

[WhatMoney?]

Hi Gary,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

My claim is for £337 of charges plus £110 interest taken. With CI it comes to £1035 (29.8%). I've claimed at 18.7% in the alternative, or s.69 8% in the alternative, so if I'm refused CI I have still requested simple 8% interest.

 

Of the charges, 13 are on my credit card and 3 are my current a/c; 2 of those are for returned items, which I'm hoping should strengthen my argument against the "service charge" defence (you didn't pay it - where's the service?!). I have the T&C's of my card, which clearly states a requirement to stay within my credit limit and pay on time, so if I don't, it is an actual breach of contract, not just implied.

 

Having now found a copy online of the 2004 current a/c T&C's, I intend to submit these at the hearing if I'm allowed, as they clearly state that charges are "to recoup our costs".

 

It was interesting reading Pen's thread - thanks for that. I do agree with you re going to court solely for CI; if I receive an offer for charges + costs + 8% I'll accept (hope no Lloyds spies have identified me!), but otherwise I will try and argue my case for it in court.

 

Thanks again for replying - I was starting to feel rather stressed by it all, and it's nice to not feel too alone!

 

x

[GaryH]

You'll be fine. You seem well prepared. As I said, contact me again if the haven't settled a couple of days before and I'll send you a few bits and pieces which will strengthen and tighten up your argument against the service charge defence. Although to be honest I find it almost inconceivable that they would attempt to defend the charges. I think you'll find the same happens to you as what happened to Pen - a deposit in your account a day or two before.

[WhatMoney?]

Well, it's more than a day or two before, but I've just discovered £443.98 in my a/c; more than £155 short even just at 8% interest, let alone what I'm actually claiming for. I haven't heard anything from them (surprise surprise!)

 

What's my best course of action now? Accepting a settlement at 8% rather than contractual interest is one thing, but I'm not prepared to let them get away with just randomly paying part of it. But I also don't want to look unreasonable to a judge.

 

What would you recommend Gary?

[GaryH]

I would definately go to court.

 

If they haven't paid 100% of the charges + 8% + fee's then you have a perfectly good reason to go to court without any question of it being seen as unreasonable.

 

Get your schedules up together of the charges + 8% and the charges + CI so you can show the judge what your claiming and exactly how much short you are. You can invite the court to consider CI as you're there anyway but don't be surprised if you have to settle for 8%.

 

If I were you I would also make a case for costs on the grounds of unreasonable conduct. I've got an "issue of costs" witness statement you can have if you like - PM me your e-mail address and I'll send it to you.

 

This is actually a good thing becouse it takes the pressure off - they've settled most of it so all there is to do at court is iron out the final amount.

[WhatMoney?]

I've done a spreadsheet for costs, itemising time spent on each part etc. Obviously we shouldn't go mad here, but I've worked it out as being 19 hours (not including research time), and that's being conservative. Would a judge think that was too high and I was just trying to get as much as I possibly can?

 

Also, would it be worth contacting [problem] to ask how they arrived at this figure, and explaining that I'll still go to court unless they settle in full; would they like to increase their offer...sort of thing?

 

Probably not I suppose...

[GaryH]

I think 19 hours is on the low side myself. We put in for 30 hours plus stationary for my mates claim - total of £472.48, although that was including 8 hours on the application and the £35 application fee. May have gone to high, who knows. We've got a hearing for it in June so we'll soon find out!

 

Yes, you can contact SC&M if you like - although don't expect any sort of cooperation. I suppose even if they tell you to sod off it increases your ammo for costs!

[WhatMoney?]

If it's all explained then I can't see the problem. I would have thought it's just when you say "OK, that was 40 hours time, pay me" it's not so good. This is, of course, based on my vast legal experience(!)

 

Anyhoo, got home today to find 2 pieces of mail from [problem]!! The first is an offer (Strictly Without Prejudice, Confidential and Privileged). Our client has agreed to refund part of your claim as follows:

 

1. Charges applied to current a/c

2. Statutory interest

3. Charges applied to credit card

4. Statutory interest

5. Stat interest at daily rate since claim started

6. Court fees

less £85 credited previously

 

No mention of the interest they took on the charges, and obviously the statutory interest is then wrong because of that.

 

They go on to say that if they don't hear from me (to accept this) they are instructed to proceed with the hearing and defend the remaining part of the claim, which is the contractual interest (and the interest they owe me anyway!)

 

They finish with the following paragraph:

 

"In regards to the contractual interest, the Bank cannot accept that the court will award this rate of interest. The reason the Bank can charge this level of interest is because you, the Claimant specifically agreed as part of the contract between yourself and the Bank that this rate could be charged. The Bank therefore has a contractual right to charge interest at that rate. You do not have such a right and therfore we believe that the Court should only award interest at its standard rate of 8% and will request the Court to make an order only to award the Claimant the statutory interest at 8% and subsequently, ask that the Court mark the claim as satisfied."

 

Why do they think I would come this far only to let them keep part of my money?! So, onto the next item, a witness statement from Joanne Storey (received 9 days after the deadline, I might add)

 

Sections 1-4. Standard paragraphs

 

5. "The Claimant has provided a schedule of charges applied..." details the seperate amount, including 'overdraft interest' and 'credit card interest' - they added the commas, not me. The figures are correct.

 

6. "The Defendant has identified that the Claimant is charging interest at the Bank's contractual rate of...The Defendant disputes that the Claimant is entitled to claim this "unarranged overdraft rate" amount. The reason the Bank can charge this level of interest is because the Claimant specifically agreed as part of a contract between herself and the Bank that this rate could be charged. The Bank therefore has a contractual right to charge interest at that rate, whereas Miss WM does not have a contract that would allow her this right."

 

Does this help my mutuality of contract argument for CI, as it specifically states that part of the contract covers these interest rates?

 

"The Defendant has included a chedule of charges that were applied to Miss WM's account, which is attached as exhibit JS1..." They then detail the charges they've taken along with the 8% interest. (But not the interest they took off me) "...In addition, the Defendant has provided copies of statements labelled 'JS2 that show that the Claimant has utilised an overdraft facility for various amounts at different times" What's their point here?

 

7. The total amount, therefore, that the Defendant disputes is the interest in the sum of £xxx.xx that was discussed in the previous section.

 

So they're disputing the CI, as expected, but the amount in the last paragraph actually includes the interest they've taken. They apparently think they've paid everything except the CI, and that that's all they're going to court to defend. Or they hope that neither I nor the judge will notice, and they get a mini-victory. Whereas I know it's not the case.

 

Presumably at court the solicitor will speak to me beforehand and try to get me to settle. If I refuse, will the judge realise that there are two different lots of interest to be dealt with, or accept Lloyds assertion that it's all CI? Basically, if I do settle for 8% interest the the amount they've offered is only 75% of what they should pay, but I don't want to risk losing the remaining 25% by saying I want to go into court. Am I explaining myself properly here?

 

I think I need to take a break from typing...

[WhatMoney?]

Well I posted a letter today, accepting the money in part-payment, which they should get tomorrow as I go into court.

 

Am I right in thinking that as they've now said they're defending the CI, that they won't be arguing over the main body of the claim in court? i.e: the interest they still owe me?

 

Any thoughts on this would be great, I'd like to be as prepared as possible tomorrow!

 

Also, probably a stupid question, but presumably if they go into court to defend a portion of the claim, I can no longer claim costs, even though they've changed their defence at the last minute?

 

Thanks, WM x

[WhatMoney?]

Bump! (sorry! )