Autonet referred my Partner to KINDERTON (NON FAULT ACCIDENT )

[BankFodder]

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we have heard of this kind of thing before where an insurer apparently recommends some other company which turns out to be a hire company and then tries to recover the hire fees from whoever they can. Ahem.

I expect that my site team colleague @dx100uk will be along fairly soon because I know that he has a fair-minded experience of these situations and also will know the name of at least one or two of the other companies who are on the same game.

I haven't looked at your post documents yet but for the moment sign nothing

And by the way, you have been here since 2009. Surely you must know by now that we don't appreciate solid blocks of text. It makes story is very difficult to read especially when people are using small screens such as telephones.

I have restructured your opening post for you – but I'd rather not have to do it again

[BankFodder]

I see that the two documents you have posted above are some kind of hire agreement.
It would also be helpful in future if you could post documents in a single file multipage format. Multiple files are unhelpful to us – especially when they are not named in a way which indicates what their contents.

I see that the first page is an unsigned agreement – at least only signed by somebody who is identified as the lessor. Who is that person?

Have you signed an agreement?

And by the way, who is the insurer?

[BankFodder]

I asked you who the lessor was.  You haven't reponded.

I asked you if you have signed an agreement and you haven't responded

[BankFodder]

Sorry but I have been out of the loop on this for a while. I'm trying to get back and I'm going to have a closer look later on today.

However from what I understand so far – and from other cases which I have looked at on the Facebook page, it seems to me that your contract is with the insurer. They are responsible for everything.

I would refuse to sign anything with kinderton at this point and if they want to reply then they have to be told that your contract is with the insurer and everything will be done through them – and that you have no legal relationship with kinderton and no legal obligation and no legal responsibility towards them, kinderton.

This would be my starting point.

By trying to get you to sign directly with them, they are trying to establish some legal/contractual responsibility/liability to you – and as far as I can see, there is no legal basis which entitles them to do this.

If this is what they want you to do – then this is certainly what you should avoid doing.

If it is good for them then you can be pretty certain that it is bad for you.

[BankFodder]

As you seem to be doing a lot of this on the telephone, I don't suppose you have any evidence that they told you that it would be free of charge.

I would suggest that you read our customer services guide, install a call recording app on your mobile phone or else on a landline and then phone them again and have broadly the same conversation and see if you can get it recorded.
You don't need to warn them. There is nothing illegal. And it will help you a great deal.
I think I would do this is the first step before they realise that you are getting into conflict with them.

You could telephone them and say that you still haven't signed the form and you are just a bit concerned and that previous people have told you that the car hire is free. You are worried about it. Get them to commit themselves that it is free and then you can end the telephone conversation because you have the recording.

If you go down this route then you should practice with the recording app or the recording device several times until you are absolutely comfortable with it and it doesn't have some kind of malfunction you forget to switch on or something at a crucial moment.

Read our customer services guide.

I think you are in a good position anyway – but a recording will settle the matter.

Secondly, I see that you are doing this on behalf of your partner. I think it will be a lot better if your partner became directly involved. If this ended up going to court it would have to be your partner who would bring the action and even present the case in court. They need to be thoroughly acquainted with what is happening, the discussions here, the whole process.

It is generally speaking unhelpful to conduct this kind of discussion through a third party actor.


 

[BankFodder]

On 04/03/2024 at 11:09, oh.for.a.lottery.win said:

 

An email has now been received from Kindertons. I would be grateful for advice on this matter bearing in mind no forms have been signed.

Good Morning

Please keep this email as confirmation that no costs will be charged to yourself for the cost of the Hire.

Whilst you are liable for the hire charges Kindertons indemnifies these losses. The third party insurer will pay the hire charges and if for any reason the charges are not paid Kindertons will not pursue you for payment of these charges. The only exception is if you knowingly and wilfully mislead us or actively fail to cooperate with our attempts to recover the hire charges from the third party insurer.

If you would look to sign the outstanding Hire agreement it would be gratefully received.

Many thanks

I have found time to have a closer look at this after the confusion about this thread.
I'm afraid that the delay in your engagement with the thread and also the posting by somebody else of their own story on this thread which confused us as we thought that it was all same story, has caused some misunderstanding.

I'm looking at this message which you received from kinderton on 4 March.

The message makes me feel far more comfortable about the status of the hire car which you have used.
There is a certain ambiguity in the message but it seems to me on an ordinary reading that they are saying that they will bear the cost of hire if for some reason rather they can't retrieve the money from the third party.
They do want you to cooperate with their attempts to recover the hire charges – and that seems extremely reasonable.

Have you responded to this message yet?

I think it is important to show that you are cooperating because the one element which could trigger your liability could be that if you don't help them to recover losses from the third party.
I think it would be worth sending them a message

Quote

Dear XXX

Reference number XXX

With reference to your message to me of XXX date where you undertake not to pursue me for vehicle hire charges if you are unable to recover them from the third party, I am worried that you begin your message saying that I am "liable for the hire charges".
I'm afraid that your firm seems to have a reputation for giving assurances of free vehicle loans to your customers and then resigning from that position and chasing them for the loan costs.
I'm not prepared to put myself in that position.
Of course I am more than happy to cooperate with you in any way that helps you to recover losses from the third party, but I am concerned that you consider that I have an initial liability in the matter.
I was persuaded to accept your courtesy car on the basis that it was exactly that – a loan/courtesy vehicle and that it would be lent to me free of charge and unconditionally.
This was made clear to me in a telephone conversation on XXX date with your member of staff XXX (do you have the name?) – And I accepted the vehicle only on that basis.
I would not have accepted the use of the vehicle in any other circumstances.
Your offer of a loan vehicle to me was made unconditionally and although I am happy to help you recover your costs from the third party, this is a matter entirely for you
Please will you confirm to me in writing that I have no liability for the cost of the courtesy vehicle. On that basis there would be no need to indemnify me as the costs would be absorbed by yourself or recovered by you from the third party.

As soon as I receive this assurance from you, I shall sign the documents and return them to you.
Please note that when I signed the documents, I shall include a rider that reflects my position as stated above.

Signed
 

I would suggest that you send them something like that.
Do you have the name of the person you spoke to? I hope so – it will be helpful.

Before you send this off, – do you still have the vehicle?

[BankFodder]

Keep everything in writing. When you speak to anybody on the phone, get a name and reference number. Refuse to speak to anybody unless you get a name. If they only give you their first name then you are a department and frankly you should be recording all of your calls. That in respect of this company but in respect of anybody you deal with because you can't trust anybody.

It's a terrible shame but nowadays you get anonymous call handlers who say all sorts of things either to get your business or to get you off the phone and later on it is all deniable

[BankFodder]

How long have you had the vehicle? Do you still need it?

I seem to recollect somewhere that you have been pressing them to take it back. Is this correct?
How long ago was this? Have you been doing in writing? What has been their response?

[BankFodder]

So can you give us a bullet pointed chronology of the vehicle loan please.

Date of the accident
date of the vehicle loan
Dates of your attempts to return it
date that it was eventually returned


I'm going to say that it's been unhelpful that you have done things on the telephone with the company which you know to be untrustworthy and when you clearly aren't sure of your status in relation to the possible charging of the cost of the loan vehicle.
Who is Rachel Cleaver?
Could you put up couple of emails that you have received from her

[BankFodder]

In normal circumstances you really shouldn't have any hesitation in signing – but given the reputation of this company it seems to me that you should be very cautious.
I think it's amazing that they insist on a digital signature. What about people who don't have access to this kind of technology or who don't understand it.

I think that eventually when you sign, you should only sign a paper copy and sent her a paper copy with the rider on it that I suggested above and if she doesn't like it then really that's just too bad for her.

Please can you give us information I asked in relation to the vehicle loan dates.

 

Also, all of this stuff about needing everything digitally because of data protection concerns is a load of nonsense. I think at some point we will write to her and ask to identify exactly what data protection rules they are which insist on digital communication and digital signatures only

[BankFodder]

Yes please. In addition to making it clear that you are only signing the form on the basis that you have no liability, I think it should also be made clear in writing that the loan period was excessive. That you didn't ask for it, that you attempted to return the vehicle and that they delayed unnecessarily even though by that time you had your own vehicle.
Do I recollect that you said that they insisted that you should have a vehicle as it would speed things up?

When did this happen? Was this also on the telephone? Who said this?

[BankFodder]

For the benefit of other people who are following this thread, I have been passed the recording of a conversation which occurred with kinderton.

The telephone conversation contains identifiers so we won't be putting it up on the forum.

However, it is extremely helpful. I think with this recording you will have no problem at all. Please stand by for a reply possibly tomorrow or over the weekend.

I think that you don't need to worry.

 

[BankFodder]

I can't remember if I have suggested that you send kinderton a subject access request.

If this hasn't been done then I would suggest that you do so immediately.

The reason for this is to see whether they are actually prepared to provide this recording. They won't know that you have a copy. I suggest that youse are subject access request template and send them a subject access request straightaway and let's get everything they've got.