Loss of power and MPG after repair work, dealer denies problem - next steps??

[evilsheep]

Hi

After an annual service on my car (2010 plate, lower than average mileage, full service history, regularly maintained and with no advisories on it's recent MOT) at my regular garage (non-dealership, but a specialist for my brand of car), I was informed that they suspected the timing chain was stretched. As I have the infamous N47 BMW engine, this is an expensive job, so I had to seek financial assistance from my parents. My parents agreed to loan half of the money, on condition I took it to a main dealer to get the work done as they felt this was the best course of action for the work to be done properly (and for increasing resale value of the car if needed).

I drove my car from my usual garage to the nearby main dealer (c.5 miles), and it was driving perfectly well (the only symptoms of chain failure are a 'rattle', which is only really noticeable when standing near the open bonnet on starting). As the chains can only be accessed by effectively removing the whole engine, labour costs are especially high, so the bill was in excess of £3k (clutch was also replaced at the time).

On collecting the car, I immediately noticed a drastic reduction in mpg - down to 37mpg from the 55+mpg I was getting previously. Also a distinct lack of power, especially noticeable on pulling off from stationary. The gear shifting is also now required at lower speeds, and it struggles badly with hill starts, and can barely accelerate at all on inclines (especially from stationary). It's a 1.6D engine with (previously) 110bhp.

Car was collected on the Friday, I called the garage on the Saturday explaining the issue and was told someone would call me back. As no-one did, I returned the car first thing on Monday morning. At the end of the day, I collected the vehicle and was told there was 'nothing wrong' with it - they'd inspected it and driven it, and it was fine, but apparently the car 'takes time to relearn' how to drive as it previously had? I was advised to drive it normally for a month and return again if I felt the issue was still present.

1 month (and 1k miles) later, I returned it explaining the same issues were present. Again, they kept it in for over a day this time, and on collecting said they'd discovered a 'clogged sensor' which was preventing the turbo from spooling. They replaced this as a 'goodwill gesture' and insisted the car was now returning 50mpg after a 25-mile test-drive that morning. After driving it away, and now having spent a week with it, it's still only returning 40mpg, and all other issues regarding power/gearing/hill-starts are still present. I also asked the garage for a full breakdown of work carried out on the 2 days they had the car, and am still waiting (I have been sent a short paragraph on headed paper which just says they 'inspected' the vehicle, changed the sensor, and then found no issue).

I have now contacted my regular garage and sought their assistance. They've said the only way they can check the work done by the dealer has been carried out correctly is by removing some engine parts, which means a bill of around £300. I've booked it in with them, and asked them to run a full diagnostic on what could be the issue with this car. I haven't yet told the dealership that I've booked it in, as I'm still waiting for them to send me a breakdown of the work they've done on supposedly identifying and rectifying the issue.

I paid half of the £3k bill on my own credit card, the other half from my debit card.

Is there anything I should've done differently? How is best to proceed from this point? Of course there's no guarantee that my regular garage will discover poor work, but given that they had literally just completed a service on the car and no issues presented themself until after collecting the car from the main dealer post-chain-work, it's one heck of a coincidence.

Many thanks for your assistance.

 

[BankFodder]

What is the name of the repair garage?

[evilsheep]

It’s Sytner Mini 

 

https://www.sytner.co.uk/mini

 

[BankFodder]

So clearly you need a full breakdown of the work which was carried out. I made that they haven't supplied this. How long ago did you ask for it?

If we are getting into litigation mode then I would suggest that it is a term of the contract that a breakdown of work which was carried out be supplied to you.

After that, if you are concerned about the performance in the way you describe – then I think you need a proper independent inspection to be carried out.
After you get the breakdown of work I would suggest that the thing to do is to organise inspection but before it happens main dealer know that this is what you are doing because you are concerned about the work that they carried out all the quality of the work that they carried out.

Give them an opportunity to object to comment.

Then go ahead and get the independent report. I suggest that you would get this from another main dealer who deals with your specialised brand and then we can go from there.

[evilsheep]

Thank you for your reply.

I asked for the full breakdown of work when collecting the car last after being surprised when they offered me nothing bar a sheet of paper with a standard list of visual checks carried out. I was assured this would be emailed that day, but when it didn't arrive I contacted them the following day to remind them.

I eventually received an email containing no detail (as previously mentioned) that afternoon - last Friday.

I replied requested more detail and specifying examples (eg code-reading, what component parts were checked, who carried out the checks etc), and still await a reply. I haven't yet informed them that the car is still not restored as they insisted it was fine when I collected.

The only other main dealers nearby (as in within 1.5 hours travelling) are also Sytner, so I don't trust that they would be independent. The garage I've booked it in with is a Mini specialist (they only do Minis) and are generally considered the go-to garage for repairs within a 50-mile radius. However, I see that Sytner will likely not consider them as 'independent', so what should I do?

My plan initially was to wait for their detailed report before contacting them. It has been suggested by others who know this engine that the only way they could check the timing was done correctly is by removing the cylinder head cover, so if this wasn't done, they haven't checked their work.

On the last occasion I took it in, the manager apparently had told the service desk that he had never heard of my model having returned over 50mpg, which is laughable and concerning. I'm sure you can see why I have no faith in Sytner on this.

If my regular garage carried out the inspection (and if they video'd it too for evidence), would this really not be considered as independent enough?

[BankFodder]

I think you should send Sytner an SAR. Do it straightaway. It's a nuisance – but it will be interesting to see what it produces.

I agree with you that any other Sytner garages probably share the same databases and it would be unhelpful to you.

I certainly understand why you haven't disclosed the fact of the ongoing problem – but I think that you need to do this. I think you need to react with alacrity otherwise you will get the usual questions as to why you didn't report it before, it was all right when it left the garage but it has since deteriorated and the deterioration is a new problem not related to the original issue.

I hope you're doing everything in writing.

It doesn't matter what Sytner want to say about the independence of some other garage. You're hardly going to tell me that Sytner's opinion of other garages is impartial and independent them.

I'm trying to understand what you are attempting to prove here. That the work wasn't carried out? That it wasn't carried out properly? That it should be carried out again?

Also, you can is no timeline so it's really very difficult to understand how things have happened in relation to each other.

How about a very brief – no narrative – bullet pointed chronology of events – but send the SAR first of all. Make the appointment with the other garage and see what they say

[evilsheep]

TIMELINE

Friday 21st July - Annual service and MOT carried out at usual garage (Mini specialists). Car passed with no advisories, garage noticed engine rattle and advised the timing chain was likely needing replacing. I asked if I could leave the car with them until I had arranged an appointment to get this work done.

Monday 31st July - collected car from garage, drove directly to Sytner Mini (c.5 miles away) where I had booked it in for a timing chain inspection. I noticed no difference in the car's driving during this short journey. Sytner confirmed the chain had stretched, and said they could start the work on Wednesday of that week, with the car being ready for collection at the end of the week. I therefore left the car with them.

Friday 11th August - collected car from Sytner, after they had replaced all 3 chains and clutch, was told there were no issues and the car was 'running beautifully'. On driving, immediately noticed lack of power/acceleration capabilities, and low MPG. After c.20-mile drive home (mostly 60mph+ roads), mpg was 37mpg (car would previously have returned at least 57mpg on a similar journey). Also noticed gear shifting was different (now needed at lower speeds), car struggled to move off on inclines and lacks acceleration especially from stationary. 

Saturday 12th August - phoned Sytner to discuss problems, told that the service desk was busy and they'd call back. No-one called back.

Monday 14th August - took car into Sytner who kept it for the day. Was told that there were no problems when I collected it, advised that the car 'needed to learn my driving style' again after major engine work and was told to bring it back if the issues still presented after a month. (I was given no paperwork confirming checks/diagnostics carried out, just informed it was 'checked and test-driven')

Tuesday 12th September (PM) - returned car to Sytner after finding no improvement after c.1000 miles driven (with an average mpg of 40). They agreed to run tests again.

Thursday 14th September (AM) - collected car from Sytner who said they'd discovered a blocked sensor which was preventing the 'turbo from spooling'. They had replaced this free of charge 'as a goodwill gesture'. Informed that the branch manager insisted he had never known a car like mine to reach over 50mpg (despite Mini's published top mpg being between 65mpg and 72mpg, and 'Honest John' website listing user average as a reported 54mpg). Told that it had been taken on a 25-mile test-drive that day and was now returning 50mpg. I was given no paperwork again, so requested that full details of checks and diagnostics be emailed to me.

Friday 15th September (AM) - contacted Sytner via website to request diagnostic data. At 6pm I received an attachment via email on headed paper stating:
 

Quote

Explanation of Work Carried Out
Visit August 14/08/2023 – When the vehicle came in we inspected the vehicle and found that the vehicle was OK on Road Test
Visit September 14/09/2023 – Investigated loss of power from stationary, difficult gear change and feels BHP is seriously reduced. Carried out inspection of vehicle, programmed control unit to the latest level and carried out Road test. Checked function of Turbo Charge actuator and found Turbo not spooling correctly. Inspected charge pressure sensor and found blocked up with carbon, removed and replaced charge pressure sensor and Road tested ALL OK.

Saturday 16th September - replied to email from Sytner requesting further information regarding diagnostics (giving examples such as codes read, component parts checked, any other readings etc., and names of testers).

Wednesday 20th September - emailed SAR to Sytner (using email address of advisor who'd previously sent information, and CC'ing generic Sytner email as listed on garage's complaints page).
 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by evilsheep

[evilsheep]

I've sent the SAR today, I've booked the car in at the local Mini specialist (my usual garage), but the earliest date they had wasn't until early October.

From information gleaned from the usual garage (and also from my brother who is a mechanic but doesn't live locally so is unable to see the car), it's suspected that Sytner have made an error somewhere when replacing the chain/clutch. I've also been told that the only way to check the timing was done correctly is by removing the engine cylinder head (which in itself is 3+ hours of labour).

My issue, in a nutshell, is that when my car arrived at Sytner it was driving as a Mini Cooper 1.6D (110bhp) should, with consumer average mpg, and the only 'problem' was the timing chain needing replacing. Since collecting the car, it is significantly under-powered and over-mpg'd and Sytner have failed to even recognise this let alone rectify it. I am now left with a car which I effectively cannot afford to drive (the chain/clutch work cost £3,300), nor can I sell it when it's driving as it is.

I'm also concerned about driving it for the next couple of weeks until the garage appointment. I cannot work without a car, so have no option but to do so.

[BankFodder]

Well as I have already suggested you are going to have to get an independent inspection and report.

Also, – on the basis that this might go to a judge, could you root around somewhere may be over the Internet and get an example of the kind of report that you are expecting to receive. I think this would help put things in perspective for people who are not familiar with the technicalities.

[evilsheep]

Just to clarify - you mean an additional inspection (aside from the one I've booked in early October?).

I experienced problems in finding a mechanic willing to carry out the chain work initially as it's a huge job, requires special tools (hence being very limited with local options).

I have excellent paperwork from my usual garage typifying the kind of report I'd expect - usually when taking it in I receive a link to view either photos of problematic parts, or a video of the inspection with commentary, and also a link to detailed report on what parts of the engine were checked, whether visually, electronically or mechanically etc, name of mechanic etc., along with estimated cost of repair.

Luckily I have the full service history for my vehicle (with receipts, garage printouts), hence being surprised at only having received an invoice and a cursory visual checklist from Sytner.

 

[BankFodder]

No – the one you have already booked.

In terms of the example report that I have suggested, I'm referring to somebody else's report – or an earlier report that has been carried out in your car which shows the kind of work, codes, comments – whatever she would expect to find on the detail which you are requesting and which has not been supplied to you

[evilsheep]

Today I had the results of the tests carried out on my car, and there is now conclusive proof that the chain was installed incorrectly. It also appears that there is a very obvious oil leak caused by this work which would be very apparent (suggesting that the car wasn’t properly inspected at least on the last occasion it was returned to the dealer). 
 

I’m not sure what steps to take now? The garage has offered to contact the dealership on my behalf to forward the report and discuss options but is this the best way forward?

 

 

[BankFodder]

I think you should keep control by forwarding any documents. The inspection garage should not contact them for the moment.

What was the value of the work which was carried out? What would be the cost of going back and sorting it out?

In relation to the oil leak, what would be the cost of sorting that out or would that be done at the same time as fixing the chain problem

[evilsheep]

The inspection work today to confirm the faults came to around £300, and I’m awaiting confirmation of the cost of remedial work (but it’s estimated to be around the £1k mark at least). 
 

I shall inform the inspection garage not to contact Sytner tomorrow. I’m likely to need to hire a car in order to get to work given that mine is not really drivable now the error has been identified. Should I give the inspection garage to go-ahead to proceed with repairs at this point?

The oil leak would be resolved at the same time as the timing correction. 

[BankFodder]

I think it's very important to involve the garage in all aspects of the remedial work. That means that you consult with them every step, let them know what you are doing and give them an opportunity to comment or to object.

This doesn't mean that you have to go along with their objections but it does mean that later on they can't claim that they have been given an opportunity or they have been fully informed.

So I suggest that you put together a letter. Post a draft of it here.

The letter should outline in a brief timeline everything that has happened. Minimum narrative. Bullet pointed.

Point out that you have given them lots of opportunity to deal with it, to inspect it, to comment on it, and they had prevaricated. Finally you have been driven very recently to seek an independent view which has cost you £300.

The independent inspection has confirmed your opinion that blah blah blah insulation has not been carried out correctly.
You are now seeking a quotation for the work to address the problems caused by them.

As soon as you receive the quotation then you will let them know and give them an opportunity to comment. You expect to be putting the car in for repairs.
During this time you will be without a vehicle and so you will have to rely on a high vehicle.

When the work is done you will be turning to them for reimbursement of the inspection fee the cost of addressing the problem caused by them and also the cost of a high vehicle.

What have they got to say about it.

Something like that – post up your draft here and we'll have a look.

Try and keep it short and to the point
 

 

Also you should instruct the repair garage that you will want a thorough report of their findings.

Also I forgot to mention in the above letter that you should refer to the oil leak as well which has been caused by poor quality work. Fortunately this is likely to be addressed during the work which is calculated to correct the chain problem caused by them and so you hope that that will not cause any further expense.
However they should understand that if some additional cost is incurred as a result then you will be looking to them for reimbursement of that as well.

Tell them that once the work is being done they will be provided with a full final report, details of the work which has been carried out and the invoice for payment.

Also I forgot to say that in your above letter, you should point out that despite your request to them they have declined to provide you with a detailed list of the work which they allegedly carried out.

 

[evilsheep]

Sytner Mini Letter.pdf

First draft of letter here (not yet sent). Is this too long/correct?

I haven't yet instructed my garage to start work on the repairs as I just wanted to confirm here that I should be doing this, and as I'm not actually able to pay for this work at the moment

need to seek help from my parents (to further complicate issues, one of my parents is currently undergoing cancer treatment and has today gone into hospital for heart problem diagnoses, so the stress of this situation is seriously affecting not just me).

I'm also not able to afford to pay for a hire car, largely due to the cost of the initial repair taking up my credit card balance.

[BankFodder]

Please stand by for a response later

[BankFodder]

The letter seems fine and very concise. Have you said that you are going to attach a copy of the report provided to them?


Secondly, you refer to the motoring ombudsman. I really wonder if that is a good idea. I can tell you that normally speaking the motoring ombudsman is very limp listed but certainly if that is the way that you want to go there and do so but I think that will slow things down and also take the pressure off them. They will be more worried about a legal action.

My suggestion is that you send them the formal complaint with the report and asked them to respond. Don't leave any deadline but if they haven't responded within seven days then let us know and we will advise you on the next step which I expect could be a letter of claim and then a court claim – unless you really want to go to the ombudsman.
Tell them that on the basis of the attached report you are booking the car in for remedial work in 10 days time. That will be your deadline, if you like for some kind of response.

If they don't respond in that ten-day frame then certainly put the car in and at least you have notified them. Does your report include a quotation for the cost of the work? You will need to provide them an idea of the cost of the remedial work that you are proposing.
They need to be fully informed so they have all opportunities to understand the situation and to comment or to raise objections as they think fit.

Don't start any work yet until they haven't notification.

[evilsheep]

Thank you. I’ll remove the mention of the Ombudsman based on what you’ve said, as it does sound as if it won’t help at all. 
 

The report I have is in the form of screengrabs of scope readings, written comments, photos and in a ‘work needed’ web link. Should I ask the garage to give it to me in a more concise version or will it do as is?

Should I send this letter by post/hand delivered with receipt or would email suffice? I have the email of the service manager (unless this one has left too like the previous one), and could try to call them to see if they would provide the dealership manager’s email. 
 

Is it also worth reinforcing to them that the longer I wait to book the car in for repair work, the more the hire car chargers (which they will be reimbursing)?

[BankFodder]

Firstly, the lack of faith in the ombudsman is my own personal view. Don't forget that if you go to the ombudsman then it will be completely free – no risk. No claim fee but of course no interest if you win.

Secondly, yes I would put together a proper report – not screenshots et cetera. You need a proper written report. They might be reluctant to do that the more official it looks. The more formal it looks, then the better it will be when you go to court.

Did we suggest that you get an SAR? If so, when is the return date for that

[evilsheep]

I’ll email the garage this evening to request a more cohesive report. They’ve been extremely helpful so far so I hope they’ll be amenable to this. 
 

I sent the SAR request (it’s in the timeline) but the service manager replied saying I should send it via the main Sytner website, whereas the Sytner website says to send it to the dealer. I suspect I should add to the end of the letter that the date I submitted the SAR to them stands, and that I expect a response in the allowed time?

I could arrange use of my partner’s car tomorrow (if I take him to work, which of course is resulting in additional miles on his car so I’ll make a note of this and add it to the list), so would be able to hand-deliver a letter to the manager

 

[BankFodder]

Have you got their reply in writing?

In respect of the report, I understand that you paid for the report and this means that you should have a proper written report

[evilsheep]

I only have written comms with Sytner since Sep 15th now - it was in an email reply that the service manager said that they didn’t deal with SARs. 
 

I have this from the garage (the invoice containing detail of the work) in addition to many other pages of supporting evidence (detailed test results etc). Would this suffice as a report?Inspection invoice.pdf

[BankFodder]

I haven't looked at the report but the report would need to come to conclusion as to the cause and also suggestions as to remedial work and possibly with a quote.

If it doesn't contain a quote for the report then you would need to see get a separate quote. It is important to get a figure.

In terms of the SAR – under the cascading rules, you can make an SAR to anybody in the organisation and they have to make sure that it gets to whoever is responsible – their data protection officer even if it is in some other linked organisation

[evilsheep]

No reply from Sytner still, and no SAR response so I’ll be filing a complaint separately with the ICO regarding this.

It has been suggested in conversation with someone I know that the independent report on the car must be carried out by a court-approved specialist/expert (there are links on the Motor Ombudsman website for these).

The remedial work on the vehicle is booked in on Monday, and as the engine needs to be effectively dismantled to show conclusive proof that this work was carried out incorrectly,

I don’t see how one of these independent assessors (there are only 3 in the whole of Wales according to the Institute of Automative Engineering Assessors) is able to carry out this inspection?

If I have to proceed to the small claims court to get my costs reimbursed for this, will it really invalidate my case if I don’t get this very specific inspection?