UKCPM 2*PCN's Now PAPLOC's - residential parking - Highbury Drive Leatherhead

[sandokan]

Hello all,

 

Let me say thank you and I really appreciate and I have found the discussions extremely useful, so big congrats for keeping the good work here.

 

I received two PCNs from UKCPM as well hence I arrived here so please see below answers and context of the situation.

 

The car is on wife's name, she's concerned that her name might pop-up in DBS checks if she's called in court so not sure about this. I have seen a list but I am still I am confused.

 

I rent the place and always parked on the rightful bay hence the car was in the correct bay at the time of the PCN however in this instance without the parking permit visible, hence UKCPM mentioned this breach due to not displaying a valid permit.

 

I checked with the property management company today over the phone and the lady said UKCPM is engaged in patrol as per the call with her and the property management is only involved when there's a company illegally parked on the driveway. She suggested to appeal to UKCPM directly as they (property mng comp) are not involved. (of course not helpful at all)

 

The tenancy agreement only mentions about the quiet enjoyment where the tenant shall peaceably hold and enjoy the premises during the term without any unlawful interruption by the Landlord or any person rightfully claiming under, through or in try for the Landlord.

  

Given the 21 days constraint to appeal, I think on Monday is the last day (for the first PCN) and I was thinking to send my appeal by post today( Friday) ?

 

a) I intend to mention the right I have to park on the bay supersedes the ticket display (the supposed breach)

 

b) include the printed permit sitting on my dashboard (from a picture) for them to see that I have a valid permit and

 

c) only first page and last page of the tenancy supplement agreement showing the extension signed last time where my name and wife's name is visible along with the address that's on the PCN (would this mean I lose the POFA protection if they see the names and address?)

 

d) given that the car was on the correct bay, no damage was done to no one (parking company, landowner, residents etc.) hence their amount is not justified, can I talk about the GPOEL?

 

I saw an interesting consultation of the Government position, dated 7 June 2022 

“Private parking charges, discount rates, debt collection fees and appeals charter:

further technical consultation response as of June 7th 2022,

 

where at the Appeals Charter section outlining how operators should handle certain grounds of appeal against parking charges which are based on innocent error or mitigating circumstances, the Government position proposes the following appeal charter at point 37 “d) Failure to display permit (copy of permit then supplied) - Is this worth mentioning?

 

 Please see below details:

 

1. Date of the infringement  

a) Incident time: 20 Feb 2023>>>

b) incident time: 24 Feb 2023>>>

 

2. Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

a) Issued date: 21 Feb 2023

b) issued date: 25 Feb 2023

 

3. Date received

I think it was 27 Feb (first one) and 1-2 March (second one) and I received it by post.

Yes, please see all details attached in pdf.

 

4.Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]

Y

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Y - please see attached pdf.

 

6. Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

N - I am preparing to do it by post now, today

 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

N

 

7 Who is the parking company?

UK CPM

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

Carpark - Highbury Drive

Town - Leatherhead

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

IAS

 

 Where and how should I start?

Thank you very much

 

[sandokan]

@brassneckedYes, it's with a remote control if that's the correct name and with a gate.

 

Thanks Nicky, the one you shared was one of many tabs open by not checked yet. On the moving house subject. Who I should let know? UKCPM? by post?

 

@FTMDave I know I know, but what does pushes me back is my lack of knowledge on this subject (on the positive side the learning curve is steep because of all new things) and secondly, my wife is the registered keeper.

 

There is only one reference to parking space which is the definition The Premises than nothing about the premises except for the quiet enjoyment as follows:

 

That the Tenant paying the rent and performing and observing the obligations on the Tenant’s part contained in this Agreement shall peaceably hold and enjoy the Premises during the Term without any unlawful interruption by the Landlord or any person rightfully claiming under, through or in trust for the Landlord.

Edited March 10, 2023 by sandokan

[sandokan]

On 10/03/2023 at 11:54, FTMDave said:

Thanks.  Can you post the definition of "parking space"?  Sorry to seem pernickety but it is important.

 

Apologies if I've not been very clear on my last post.

 

That's what I meant: 

 

The Premises
References to ‘the Premises’ include reference to any part or parts of the Premises and the curtilage of the same, together with the garden, garage and parking space (if applicable).

 

Then everything that mentions premises, doesn't directly relate to the parking apart from what I mentioned previously.

 

Now, what might be indirectly related (maybe) from what I read the agreement are the following ones:

 

A) Access and Inspection:

 1. To permit the Landlord, or any superior Landlord, or the Landlord’s Agent or contractors or those authorised by the Landlord, upon giving at least 24 hours notice in writing (except in an emergency) to enter the Premises at all reasonable times for the purpose of inspection and repair, to include inspection and repair to any adjoining or neighbouring Premises.

 

2. To indemnify the Landlord for any loss incurred by the Landlord as a result of the Tenant failing to keep a previously agreed appointment with any third party at the Premises.

 

B) Interests and Consents:

1. That he is the sole/joint owner of the leasehold or freehold interest in the Premises and that all consents necessary to enable him to enter this Agreement (whether from superior landlords, mortgages, insurers or others) have been obtained.

 

I am not sure about A and B ?

 

On 10/03/2023 at 12:04, brassnecked said:

Especially as with restricted entry by fob or a keypad there isn't really any need for a fleecer to be active in a place like that.

 

I do remember once but I was myself only, that the guy came in the parking while I was about to leave and a car next to me didn't had the permit shown (this was around the COVID period) and I literally told him

 

"Hi don't do a ticket for this car because it is actually renting here" and the guy didn't, he just left on.

 

This wasn't recorded, I didn't had any witness, it was just me trying to make a favour for one of my neighbours.

Now I wish I could see him down there..

[sandokan]

I called them and they said over the phone the parking management company is engaged in patrol and that the they (property management company) will engage only when there are cars parked illegally on the driveway. The lady suggested me to follow the appeal process which is useless.

 

I am only concerned about the time it will take to deal with this, might add to the stress level as this is going for maybe 6 months at least and currently anything that might come would be on my wife's name so she's not "ambitious" to purse this. On the positive side, I think it's a really good experience to learn the process by actual doing it. In the worst case, what's the worst outcome apart from paying the amounts? In both cases I see you're confident they will lose?

[sandokan]

Thank you soo much Dave!

I have today also managed to find the email address of on the directors from Companies House, hence this would go straight to him and copy in cc the Senior Property Manager I spoke over the phone, on Monday. I really appreciate and makes me think the humanity is not lost  

 

@brassneckedThanks a lot, I'll be reading them. It's gold and I appreciate a lot sharing these with me.

 

@nickyboYep, I'll add them so that hopefully they will make the move. I really appreciate Nicky 

[sandokan]

Hi,

 

I hope you had a good weekend.

 

Just to let you know I've sent the email to one of the directors of the property management company.

 

I think the deadline to appeal within the 21 days for the first PCN is tomorrow for them to receive it.

 

My only concern derives from the fact that I want to take out my wife out of this....but let's see if he replies maybe today and at least I'll know something from their side. 

[sandokan]

I think the first reason is that she doesn't have the willingness to pursue in this process if the mindset is not there, she'll not do it properly. And I believe this also comes from the lack of the big picture and key points of even if you have the money to pay them, you have to question if that's correct, which I truly believe it's not, to be fined on your own parking space.

 

Her level of stress is already high due to current work not sure how much this would add up.  I am willing to go further, hence the reason to stay steady.

 

 

[sandokan]

Yes,

well the deadline to my calculations is tomorrow.

 

if the incident happened on 20 Feb,

they issued this notice on 21Feb

I received it on 28th Feb then where the fair 21 days for appeal?

 

They say "all appeals must be submitted within 21 days (beginning with the day after that on which this notice is given)"

 

if the deadline is tomorrow,

I can submit the appeal form

BUT I notice in one of the post that them having the email can become quite an disadvantage at a later stage when they might use it against me.

There's no option as far as I saw for same day post delivery.

UK CPM - PCNs.pdf

[sandokan]

I might have been doing the other way round, in the pdf from my previous post the last two pages show the PCNs? No the wasn't any windscreen ticket, both received by post.

Edited March 13, 2023 by sandokan

[sandokan]

 

Guys, I am still learning, sorry for my slow learning process.

 

Just saw about the lay rep which I didn't heard until your previous post @dx100uk  and googled Ok, so I can represent her, then that's convenient. 

[sandokan]

Well, I saw in one post you were surprised it reached that far, you never know who's pulling the trigger but as you said and I honestly rely on your expertise, up to 6 years can take so never say never.  

[sandokan]

Hi there,

Thank you. I have them(attached) but now I have asked this case to be re-opened here because I received a letter before claim from Gladstones which I have to :

1 pay the debt or

2. dispute the debt within 30 days.

 now I am refreshing my knowledge here and work on the draft in the hope that with the community's help from here I would be able to create a good draft.

UKCPM doesn't know who the driver is, but my wife kept receiving theses papers, the recent one being the letter before claim.

PCNs - UKCPM.pdf

[sandokan]

Draft sounded a little bit formal, I needed to refresh my knowledge and came across the case from Gateway-shopping-centre in Trowbridge which I found funny.

 

Because I haven't posted any updates since, I also want to share the history of letters received up until now:

21/02/23 - first PCN from UKCPM (incident date 20 Feb 2023)

25/02/23 - second PCN from UKCPM (incident date 24 Feb 2023)

11/03/23  - Final chance before action from UKCPM

17/03/23 - Final chance before action from UKCPM (second one)

31/03/23 - DRP letter

05/04/23 - DRP letter

24/04/23 - DRP letter

26/04/23 - DRP letter

11/05/23 - DRP letter and something called Terminal Notice Pre-Legal Action

11/05/23 - DRP letter and something called Terminal Notice Pre-Legal Action (second one)

04/07/23 - DRP letter and something called Terminal Notice Pre-Legal Action

05/07/23 - DRP letter and something called Terminal Notice Pre-Legal Action (second one)

27/10/2023 - Letter before claim from Gladstones Solicitors

 

Also now that you asked about the back of the PCNs what I did remembered and most likely didn't mentioned previously (sorry for this). Back in Feb when I got them at the residential premises there is a gardener who is a nice guy and he also told me had problems with UKCPM getting PCNs.

I tried my luck by asking him if he can maybe help by asking the property management company to try and cancel the PCN and it this regard I gave him the two PCNs so that he can scan and send them to the property management company or UKCPM (I am not 100% sure who he tried to contact) and on the back of one of the PCNs I left him my phone number and first name.

Now the only strange thing is that when I received the letter before claim from Gladstones Solicitors I also received a message on my phone : "Due GBP 170 further to our letter we are to work with you. please visit this site xxxx, quote ref: xxxxxxxx" How come do they have my phone number? Is it from DVLA?

 

Please find attached all documents front/back received so far.

 

 

 

 

PCNs & FCBA (front and back).pdf DRP Letters.pdf Letter of Claim Gladstones.pdf

[sandokan]

Thank you Dx, Nicky Boy.

For sure not from Facebook it's not linked, Instagram - I don't have, Twitter account not linked to it, hence I doubt is from any social networks. Maybe from my credit cards or car insurance.

Ok, I'll check some snotty letters and come up with one, I hope by next week.

[sandokan]

Hi all,

 

What do you think about this first draft? Thank you.

 

Dear Gladstone Solicitors,

With reference to case xxxxx.xxxxx

I waited patiently and finally I have received your template letter and I feel sorry that you have to continue what your client started, but I can't blame them, GBP 2.4m net profit and GBP 10m in dividends paid in 2023, that's a lot of willingness from Mr. Henson, Dawson, Parker [ the UK CPM Directors] to send these letters to people. Some might end up paying these dividends to them, but not in my case gents.

I mean, who would take them seriously when there's no substance on these PCNs/claims from UK CPM? Not in my case at least. I will keep my arguments for later, in case we'll have a future in court because you [GS] know and I know that these claims are total pants.

In the same time I'll start thinking about what should I treat myself with the costs that your client will pay. One thing is for sure, I'll enjoy every penny of it since there is no compliance with POFA. Or, better for all that your client drops this foolishness now and we are all going to have nice holidays without myself getting any threatening letters.

I look forward to our next interaction. Or not. Either way, it will be entertaining.

 

 

 

 

[sandokan]

thank you very much for your assistance so far and fingers crossed for what's coming.

Just to make sure I get it right:

1. I'll send the text with the suggested amendments exactly as it is by 2nd class with Royal Mail with receipt signature.

2. Because I will write the case ID for each recipient I won't mention anything about myself, correct? (it is obvious but trying to be extra cautious)

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

[sandokan]

Thank you for confirming Nicky Boy, I am just heading off to post them.

[sandokan]

Hi all, 

Just a quick question please,

because I had two PCNs, I also received two letters from Gladstone Solicitors, one of them came earlier (deadline 26th November which was sent) and another one identical that came later with the deadline of 10th December .

Do I send the same snotty letter for the second one as well?

Technically I should send it to meet the deadline, but just in case is there anything else needs to be done?

I'll send it tomorrow as usual, 2nd class with proof of postage. Thank you. 

[sandokan]

Thank you dx100uk, will do that and send it tomorrow the same snotty letter I sent two weeks ago.

[sandokan]

Thank you very much FTMDave and apologies for my slow response!

Of course I will send the email now mentioning that there is evidence in the online space that GS had knowingly added a higher amount in the fixed solicitors' costs section and that I would like to submit a formal complain.

Would be fine if I print screen only the section where GS acknowledges the mistake and they say it should be 50 and 80 ?

Secondly,

I will be outside UK between tomorrow and 1st of Jan when I will return,

should I inform anyone that I will be out of the country between this period (19 Dec- 1Jan)?

I remember I came across something that I should let the solicitors know about this but I am not 100% sure.

I really appreciate your help with this.

[sandokan]

Thank you FTMDave, yes there is someone who will be here, but not me personally. that was my concern as I am the only one involved in this.

I will write now the LoC to SRA, fingers crossed  

dx, thank you very much, noted. 

[sandokan]

Happy New Year good people! I hope that you all had restful and good quality time with your loved ones.

 

I sent the email to SRA where I raised my concern regarding the firm (GS) didn't acted transparently and acted with integrity (not sure this was precisely the motive) but I mentioned that costs for such claim should be GBP 50 and not GBP 80. However, SRA replied to me and I quote:

"We have previously investigated similar concerns about the firm's Letter if Claims. I had raised queries with the firm regarding these concerns. The firm explains there has been a technical error in that the incorrect number of GBP 80 has been endorsed as the estimated solicitors and confirm it should have indicated GBP 50. The firm have taken all necessary corrective action in relation to the math field in the system which generates the estimated solicitors costs.

It appears, there has been a technical error regarding the figures generated for the estimated solicitors costs. However, the firm have taken steps to correct their system to prevent similar instances arising in the future. I cannot find the firm has sent further Letter of Claims since correcting their systems. As such, I do not consider any further action is required on our part. the firm refers to the costs as estimated as if a claim is issued, the claim form would reflect the accurate figures which are being claims (I think should be been "claimed" not claims).

For the reasons given above, I cannot conclude that the firm's behaviour represents a serious failure to comply  with our standards or requirements. For that reason, we will not be investigating this matter further on this occasion and I will take steps to close my file.

I appreciate this is not the response you were seeking, but I do hope my letter has helped  explain our position and the reasons for our decision."

 

From my point of view I am not convinced about this corrective action since in the greenwich peninsula case , the LoC was sent on 27 October and mine was sent 1 month after than, on 26 Nov.

 

Any ideas/views on this please? Thank you.

 

[sandokan]

Hello beautiful people,

There has been some silence over the last two months, but I received a letter from GS about two weeks ago. I didn't posted earlier as it didn't seemed to be a court claim. This letter in short, ask me to pay as their client has the right to commence Court proceedings without further reference to myself, I wonder what that means "without reference to me" would I be informed in any way or not if they bring me to court? 

A more interesting things was that GS posted in the envelope details for another PCN that is related to another person which implicitly shared their name, address, car registration, photos etc. can be seen in the pdf attachment here. Do you see a point for me to try and inform SRA about their mistake? Might have been the intern sending letters...

 

Many thanks.

GS letters in 2024.pdf

[sandokan]

Thank you guys!

@lookinforinfo thank you for the case, it seem to similar with my case which is gold.

@Nicky Boy shouldn't be ICO?

 

Personal data breaches: a guide

ICO.ORG.UK

 

For CAG I found this  The Confidentiality Advisory Group (CAG) is an independent body which provides expert advice on the use of confidential patient information. This includes providing advice to us, the Health Research Authority (HRA) for research uses. It also provides advice to the Secretary of State for Health for non-research uses.

Edited March 19 by sandokan

[sandokan]

Thank you all for your suggestions.

Do I understand correctly that:

1. I should post the wrong letters/info to the person and inform her/him that a) this is a GDPR breach from GS and she/him can find great support from CAG if she will come forward if intending to ask for potential compensation

2. Tell GS about their mistake and that they should self-report to ICO (I will make an enquiry to check that later) probably 

Or should I do nothing and keep as a potential advantage in court? Would this be used in any way?