NCP/BW PCN PAPLOC now claimform - New Gatwick Drop Off Zone - I thought I had paid for both visits? ***Claim Dismissed***

[MoaningCrusader]

Noted Dx100. I have just changed my ID to a CTAX bill.

 

What would happen if your partner's name is on your CTAX bill and all Utility Bills... Is a bank letter/statement acceptable?

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Guys,

 

I have just returned home from holiday to this response letter to my CPR request from BW Legal.

 

While they have included the initial NTK and the Final Reminder, they have failed to include all the other letters/reminders etc that were sent and any evidence of signage (which they claim to have included)

 

They appear to be refusing to supply their agreement with Gatwick Airport as it's 'commercially sensitive' and that the planning permission is irrelevant to the case.

 

Could you please have a look at this letter and let me know if it plays into our hands?

 

I am about to submit the basic defence supplied on the claim sticky with the Claims Court online. We can flesh this out later, should I be required to submit a full witness statement. 

 

See attached file

 

 

BWLegalCPRResponseAug2022.pdf

 

FYI 

 

I have submitted my defence as the generic one supplied on the relevant thread, as supplied above.

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks FTMDave.

 

I will look into PP given by Crawley Council. And report back.

 

Are the rules different for airports, though?

 

I just searched on Crawley Planning Register where it claims:

 

Our online register allows you to check the progress and view a list of current and determined planning applications or find details of enforcement notices that have been served since 2002.

 

The online register contains details of planning applications received since 2004 including drawings and other material submitted to the local authority along with officer reports and decisions which are available to download.

 

I used the following keyword search:

 

National Car Parks Signage Gatwick Airport North Terminal Drop Off and Pick Up Zone

 

Signage Gatwick Airport North Terminal Drop Off and Pick Up Zone

 

Drop Off Charge Signage Gatwick Airport North Terminal Drop Off and Pick Up Zone

 

It came back as 'no results'

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Guys,

 

I have received letter before claims for both the other NCP PCNs received in addition to the one we have been primarily dealing with here.

 

I have responded with my own 'snotty' letter and have now received a response from the first of these letters. Can I post the response up here or should I start a new thread for each 'PCN'

 

I am keen to get your opinions on this 

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks Fruitsalad & FTMDave.

 

Fruitsalad - Shall I remove the ref to the PCN as well and just leave it as Letter Before Claim?

 

Totally understand we all have our lives to lead. I can only thank you for the time you have given me so far. I will wait for confirmation that we are good to go. In the meantime I will familiarise myself with the claim process as instructed above.

 

FTMDave - I attempted payment the following day, not while in the drop off zone. However, this issue clearly shows an inadequate system is in operation. I will be supplying witness statements from my family who were present while I did it. As there was a definite  moment when I exclaimed I needed to do it, and then went online.

 

Hope you all have a lovely weekend.

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

I will do FTMD.

 

Now, after posting this morning... A Notice of Intention to Proceed arrived through my letter box from BW Legal.

I have uploaded a PDF below.

I am a little confused as they claim to be giving me until the 23rd September to settle in full with them. However, my defence was received but the courts on the 22-08-22.

 

I can't find the letter from the courts confirming  receipt of my defence, but they had stated the time for BW Legal to respond was limited. Is it that they have to respond to my defence within 28 days of it being submitted, otherwise the court puts a stop on the proceedings? So if they wait until he 23rd they will be out of time to take further action, will they not?

 

I have checked on my account on MoneyClaimOnline and no further activity has been registered other than the receipt of my defence.

 

LetterofIntentiontoProceedBWLegal14-09-22.pdf

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks FTMD

 

In regards to LoC... I have included a sum of £200... But I would be more inclined to go for £1000 to cover the distress all of this putting me through.

 

In regards to the dates, the fact that they have failed to log a response to my defence could mean they are not going to proceed any further? Could it not? There is no response from them logged with the courts on my account. 

 

FYI I have just checked with MoneyClaimOnline. NCP/BWL have until the 26th September to respond to my defence with their intention to proceed with court action. A bit annoying, as I was hoping they wouldn't.

 

Tbh I have a feeling they are going to, as it would work out that they respond on Friday 23rd September to my lodged defence, as no settlement will be coming from me, I can assure you.

[MoaningCrusader]

I hear you dx100. I am in no way fooled. Tbh, I am very much expecting it progress after the 23rd Sept. Seem to have me well and truly on their radar.

 

I will put a bit more research in on the other threads. Thanks for the nudge.

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Everyone.

 

Well as I predicted, it looks like this claim is proceeding. I have just received a Notice of Proposed Allocation to the Small Claims Track.

 

I have attached the form, but left off the generic info about mediation. I am assuming that mediation is not a course I should take as it would deem all my evidence un-submissable should I use in mediation. As anything brought up in that process is confidential and cannot be presented in court. Or is it?

 

The form itself looks relatively straight forward. Questions I have per section:

 

A. Do I agree to mediation first?

 

B. Contact Details - straightforward

 

C. I assume my answer is 'yes'

 

D. I would prefer to submit the defence in writing to avoid this taking up anymore of my time with having to actually attend a hearing. However, if you feel there's a higher chance they won't turn up to the hearing, then I'll go for it. I am just not available all of December at present.

 

E1. I suggest the nearest Magistrates to myself. Obvs.

 

E2. N/A

 

E3. I will be submitting written witness statements from those present when I went online to pay the drop off charge. But they will not be attending in person. I assume then I do not mention them here. Although I would love to fly my parents over and then charge NCP for this expense upon wining my claim! A nice wee holiday for him.

 

Do I need to send a copy of the completed form to BW Legal as well? Or just the court. Having checked online, I don't think I can fill this all in through MCO.

 

I hope to hear your advice on the above asap. I must have a response to the court by 10th October.

NoticeofProposedAllocation23-09-22.pdf

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks for your response Dx100.

 

So I will follow this course of action as found on a VCS pcn line

 

no to mediation

 

the rest is obv

 

3 copies

1 to court

1 to NCP minus phone/sig/email

1 for your file.

 

Yes, the DQ is up on my online MCOL account.

 

The form asks for me to provide a County Court hearing centre. When I search through the government website to find a court/tribunal for money claim near me, my local magistrates court comes up as nearest. Can you advise any further on this?

 

I was unable to find much on the submitting in writing. A few links to feeds would be helpful here.

 

I also appear to be the only one when I search for other threads on Gatwick Drop Off Zone PCN.

 

Is this the case?

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks FTMDave. I will continue to look for a live hearing then.

 

FYI The search on government website has given me my local COUNTY court. So all good on that front. I will include it in section E1

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks dx100 that clarifies things perfectly.

 

Can I ask... Why no to the free court mediation? Is this simply because these crooks will never agree to anything other than getting the their money?

 

Also, am I able to supply signed witness statements from persons present when I attempted the online payment with my WS when it comes to it?

 

What will I put for reasons why I want a hearing and not a determination on paper?

[MoaningCrusader]

No worries dx100 I got your meaning. All good.

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks all of the above. I think it is good to discuss the merits of written witness statements in these cases. As with online payments, sadly there is very little way to evidence a system failure or payment attempt. As we can't recall our online activity on other people's websites easily.

 

I am going to draft my reasons for wanting a hearing and not going on a paper only course later and hopefully we can make sure that is watertight.

 

Now on note of recalling data etc. If anyone is reading this thread and dependant on itemised mobile phone calls as evidence. BE AWARE unless you are paying for itemised billing, your call records are only kept for 90days online! I have just went online to print off the evidence of my call to NCP on 20th Oct 2021 to discover they no longer have the calls on their system.

 

However, I did point out to my phone provider that if the police required this info for court, it could be found. The guy on the phone totally agreed and has now worked out that if you put in a SAR with your phone company for a particular day, it can be dug out and found and your itemised calls sent to you. PHEW! Here's hoping this happens quickly and without any issue, otherwise I'll be starting another SAR claim

 

Just lucky I spotted that at this stage and not at the point of submitting my WS and relevant evidence.

 

[MoaningCrusader]

We can discuss the written WS further, as we have time before it will be required. I tend to sway towards the side of keeping it simple. It would be a pain if I had to fly my parents back over.

 

The main thing is in regards to filling in this questionnaire is that I am not currently looking to have any witnesses giving evidence at the actual hearing. So I will just enter '1' into E3.

 

But if we can all agree, I would want to submit signed written ws from my parents and partner who were present and witnessed me going online to complete the drop off charge payment in relation to this pcn. If agreed, I assume I can include these signed statements with my full WS supplied before the hearing, once a date has been allocated

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

I am going to put the following in D1 - Suitability for determination without hearing

 

This hearing is in regards to the issuing of a speculative charge for parking on private land with significant factual dispute and complexity that requires oral evidence and advocacy.

 

How's that sound?

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Dx100 I will be evidencing the facts that their payment system was not working correctly at the time of my visits.

 

1. I attempted to pay on 15th Oct within 24hrs of picking my parents up. As per their signage.

2. I also then attempted to pay for the return drop off when leaving my parents back on 18th Oct.

3. I called NCP on 20th Oct as I was concerned that no receipt or money had been taken for either visit. In that call the representative told me that he could see I had paid for my last visit, but he was unable to go more than 3days back on his system to check the other payment (dubious). Despite me being told that the visit on 18th Oct was paid for, no money ever came out of my account, nor a receipt received by email. 

4. If payment was not taken from my account for both visits on 14th & 18th October. Why have I only received one PCN? Should they still maintain that I made a payment on the 18th, I can show relevant bank statements to prove nothing was.

 

So I will evidence the failure of payment being taken by their system by producing my bank statement, the phone call to rectify the matter on the 20th Oct by itemised call records from my phone provider and my attempt to pay online for the visit their PCN is relevant to with simple signed witness statements from those who were present with me when I did it on my phone. I cannot witness this in any other way, as far as I can see?

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Dx100. I just messaged you directly. But realised really what I asked you would be beneficial to other readers of this thread in the same position as myself to know.

 

Can I clarify - are you advising that I do not include a signatured copy of the N180 to BWLegal? As well as omitting my mobile & email address. Only supply these details in the N180 going back to the CCBC in Northampton.

 

If yes, could you explain why my signature needs to be left out in your view? When the form states it must be signed.

 

Happy to send an unsigned one, but just wanted to make sure this doesn't give them something to latch onto and use against me.

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks Andy. That's what I thought. They have my sig on several other letters I have sent and their data team have my email from my SAR case. But I will leave it off the N180 anyway, as they should have no need for that or my mobile.

 

I have sent the CCBC one off already, as that's potentially the most crucial one to arrive on time. I have FPoP for that.

 

I will do the same for BWLegal later today.

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi FTMDave

 

They already have my signature on other letters that I have sent to them, including my response to their initial LoC.

 

Hence why I asked dx100 what was to be achieved by not providing my signature where it clearly states I must?

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Fair point dx100

[MoaningCrusader]

I posted the 2nd copy to BWLegal yesterday by 3pm and got free proof of postage.

 

I came home to the N180 from BWLegal arriving by post. Their form appears to be different to mine... No section E? Also they are stating that '0' witnesses will attend the hearing to give evidence??

 

See attached pdf for your inspection. Comments welcome.

 

 

BWL:NCPN180.pdf

[MoaningCrusader]

But if you compare my form to theirs... Their section D1 onwards, is my section E1 onwards. My section D1 is whether I want a paper judgement or hearing and why??

 

Different forms, not a page missing?? Any ideas?

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks guys.

 

So I assume it means nothing that they've used an old form.

 

No doubt one they have it generically filled in by 'Rohan' who probably doesn't exist, for easy sending.

 

Still intrigued as to how they plan to defend themselves when they are sending 0 people to do so?

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Peeps.

 

Sorry I didn't get this up yesterday. I never actually got a chance.

 

I have created a PDF file of what was sent minus all the usual info we are all used to on their PCNs, the photo evidence with my VRN on it and my response letter they have kept on file to their LoC. This is all here on this thread already

 

I have the same for my two other PCNs that are on a different thread. Do I need to load up the PCNs that I have already loaded up. Or just SAR report at the beginnning. I will load them up to the relevant thread.

 

NCP-SAR07-10-22.pdf

Edited October 11, 2022 by MoaningCrusader