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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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CEL ANPR PCN - POPLA unsuccessful -PAPLOC - Now Claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park, London SE5 8RW - paid have receipt too! ***Claim Discontinued***


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Hi, just wondering what stage are you at with this?? Did it go to court?? Seems like it has been going on for a year??

CEL ANPR PCN PAPLOC now Claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park Denmark Hill Camberwell, London SE5 8RW - paid-did not enter Reg No - POPLA rejected appeal - Private Land Parking Enforcement - Consumer Action Group

Civil Enforcement and POPLA also rejected my appeal.

I entered the Butterfly Walk car park in Camberwell in May 2021 and went to pay at the machine but their machine froze. I then phoned up their number on the board to pay via the phone but got cut off after 3mins. 2nd call went through but it took about 5mins to enter the card details and registration number after listening to them yapping about going onto their website to pay. I have got a receipt. 

to cut the story short. Charge was sent to my husband but I dealt with it as I was driving.

I submitted the receipt to them along with my details. 

3 weeks later, same charge was sent but this time to me in my name.

 My appeal to both Civil Enforcement and POPLA was unsuccessful because I didn’t pay within 10mins. Although I submitted proof of my calls to say I had called twice with 10mins, their response was that it was my error and no one else had issues paying at the time while I parked there. 

Not sure if I have a strong case??

Any advice appreciated. 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to CEL ANPR PCN POPLA unsuccessful - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park, London SE5 8RW

Hi All, here are my answers to the sticky forum as requested.

1 Date of the infringement 17.05.21

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] Register to keeper dated 26.05 

To driver dated 10.06

3 Date received

To Keeper - 29th May

To driver - 15th June

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] No

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?Yes from Civil Enforcement. 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]Yes

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it upYes

7 Who is the parking company?Civil Enforcement 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

Butterfly Walk Car Park, Denmark Hill, London, SE5 8RW

......................................

My POPLA appeal was unsuccessful on 13th August.

I have received a letter from Civil Enforcement (dated 16.08) today, 17th August demanding payment within 28days as my appeal to POPLA is unsuccessful.

I believe I have a stronger case as I have attempted to pay as soon as I have parked up but payment didn't go through until 13mins later.

I have a receipt as proof of payment and also proof of calls from my phone made within 10mins of entering the car park. 

Shall I ignore all letters and look out for the Letter of claim

Any advice appreciated. 

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First notification was to my husband as he is the owner of the car.

I thought I did the right thing and appealed (as stated in their letter) to say I have paid for the parking and sent them my receipt and explained I may have entered the registration slightly wrong (entered II instead of 11) which is why I got the charge

Expected to hear back within 14 days from the appeal (as stated) but received another invoice but in my name this time 17 days later after the appeal. 

No explanation or anything about my receipt or incorrect registration number. 

Appealed again through Civil Enforcement but only asked for the verification code so I can appeal directly to POPLA.

- I was so confident that POPLA will cancel my charge as I sent them proof I had tried to pay and their system was slow.

When payment finally went through, the call lasted about 5mins. 

After the 2nd appeal to them, I had received a letter from them within a couple of days referring to my verification number to POPLA explaining that my appeal was unsuccessful

I didn’t pay within 10mins as stated on their sign plus a ‘COPY’ version of their response to my first appeal dated within the 14days after my first appeal which I’d never received.

 I still haven’t received that first response on this day and believed it was never sent to me. 

Up until I had received the first response from Civil Enforcement, I didn’t know it took 13mins for my payment to go through after 2 failed attempts.

Not like I left the car park without paying, I sorted it and made sure payment went through before I did my shopping. 

Did you want me to upload the POPLA response??

Or the letter they have sent me today or both charges?? 
 

Thank you so much. 

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Sure, will upload them tonight. 

Yup, I was going to pay the charge and forget about it after the appeal was unsuccessful but I spent the whole weekend reading this forum and other posts in unfair parking Facebook groups. My gut feeling tells me not to pay!

I was reading The CEL ANPR PCN PAPLOC now Claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park Denmark Hill Camberwell, London SE5 8RW

- paid-did not enter Reg No - POPLA rejected appeal thread and it made me laugh so much. 

I know what to expect next and I am aware that debts cannot be collected unless they win the court case.

funny how they use a fake debt company and then another and kept giving new deadlines.

That is not professional at all.

I realised I’d made a big mistake as soon as I received the same charge but in my name.

I guess honesty is not always the best policy. 

Thank you and I will update and post as each letter comes as it give others more confidence into not giving in to those they! 

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Of course, it is an invoice! Need to remember that. 

Attached PDFs as promised. 

Here is the response from POPLA.

I'd only copied and pasted the relevant part as why the appeal was unsuccessful as some part of the decision was dragging on and going off topic such as the CEL not informing me in writing why my appeal wasn't successful and sent me a charge instead and that is between me and CEL and it would make no difference to the appeal. 

To keep it simple, here it is! 

Having considered the evidence provided, I can see that a payment was made towards the appellant’s stay on the date in question however, the parking terms clearly state that payment must be made within 10 minutes of arrival.

According to the paybyphone data log provided, the payment was not made until 10:33, which was 13 minutes after arriving at the site. As such, the appellant has not made the payment in conjunction with the terms and conditions and the PCN has been subsequently issued.

I can see no evidence to suggest that there were any faults with any of the payment machines on the date in question, as the operator has provided a log of payments, showing that other motorists were able to successfully make payment for their stay around the same time the appellant was parked at the site.

In the absence of any evidence to suggest otherwise, it is clear that all payment methods were working on the date in question. I have considered the appellant’s evidence of the payment confirmation and whilst I do not dispute that payment was made, the parking terms apply to all motorists using the site.

I would also like to highlight that the operator has provided evidence of its internal call log, showing that two calls were made from the appellant’s phone number however, the first call was dropped due to too many failed attempts at registering the vehicle details.

I note the appellants frustrations on the date in question however, if the appellant was experiencing problems with any of the payment methods on the site at the time, they could have contacted the operator directly on the phone number to seek further assistance or they should have left the site when and sought alternative parking arrangements. 

Ultimately, it is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure they have made full, valid payment for their stay. In this case, by failing to make payment in accordance with the terms and conditions stated, the appellant has accepted the potential risk of a PCN. As such, I conclude that the PCN has been issued correctly. Accordingly, I must refuse this appeal.

 

 

CEL Letters.pdf

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Yup I figured that out when I was reading through their assessment.

When POPLA said that nothing was wrong with the payment method on the day as the operator provided the internal log of calls, they could have edited or hid certain calls before sending it to POPLA!

POPLA cannot be sure if nothing was wrong as they weren’t there!

They knew I attempted to make payment when I parked up but still refused to cancel my appeal. 
 

I believe I have enough evidence so will wait for the Letter before Claim before I respond.

Will keep all my ducks in a row for now! 
 

Thanks for the thread, I should take a read.

These threads do make me laugh so much but you guys have been a great support by telling us not to panic.

I can see why people get so anxious and it isn’t nice. 
 

Thanks again, will keep everyone posted! 
 

 

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When CEL submitted their photographs to POPLA, the signs does say pay within 10mins along with the details on how to pay etc.

I didn’t focus too much on the 10mins at that time as I had my toddler and mum with me and as long as I pay or at least attempt to pay right away, I thought it should be fine. 

I did look to pay as soon as I parked up and when we all got out. 

Machine was frozen when I tried to pay.

Then I phoned the number on the board to pay.

Their automatic phone system was dragging on for a good 3mins about paying on their website before asking me to enter my registration and then my card details.

When the call got cut off first time, I phoned right back.

I left the car park after paying for my ticket. 

Yes I can go back on Friday to take photos of their signs and post on here.

Thank you for reading! 
 

 

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I went into Butterfly Walk car park today and took pictures of their signs.

I am starting to think the signs that CEL submitted to POPLA are fake as the signs in the car park is nowhere near as obvious as their photographs they sent to POPLA.

Such a shame their photographs are not on POPLA anymore so I could compare them.  

Firstly,

when you drive in, there is a big sign that says Phone & Pay or Pay at Machine.

Nothing stated about payment must be made within 10mins.

As you pass the first big sign, there is another sign on the right on the wall that tells you the prices and other information.

It took me a while to see the 'payment must be paid within 10mins from arrival' and that is me standing right in front of that sign.

It did not stand out at all or caught my eye right away. 

I can see the camera facing where the first sign is. 

Also, I figured out today why I couldn't pay at the machine as it only allow COINS yet they have what looks like a card slot and the little bit at the bottom where you collect paid tickets.

Just like a typical ticket machine that allows card payment.

Therefore I now understand why the machine 'froze' when I put my card in waiting for payment to go through and the green button wasn't working.

My card fitted in that slot perfectly too!

NOWHERE on the machine says 'COINS ONLY'.

Again, took me a while to acknowledge that it is coins only. 

Even going into the car park today knowing what I am looking for still took me a good few mins to read the signs.

I even wondered where I got the number to pay as it wasn't on any of the signs near the front.

I had to go half way into the car park and then there is another sign where it has the number to pay.

The bigger sign and the smaller sign is put all around half of the car park inside. 

Let me know your thoughts.

Thank you all for reading! 

 

My Car Park Pix.pdf

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I guess I'd never submitted their true signs to POPLA as I didn't think they would reject my appeal. POPLA just used CEL's photographs and made a decision based on that.

 

I believe I have paid or at least attempted to pay as soon as I'd parked up was good enough reason to cancel my ticket. I remember looking at their photographs on POPLA's appeal and it was big bright yellow and you can clearly see 'Pay within 10mins of arrival'.

 

But when I got there on Friday, I didn't see it right away as it blended in so well with the other texts and it took me a long while to find those words. I even thought those words were removed. 

 

I guess I can ignore all threats and wait for the Letter before Claim. Have saved all my evidence in a special folder on my laptop incase I ever need it. 

 

Thank you all for your support and advice.

I have learnt so much from this charge from reading the forums and spending the time looking into this. I normally would pay without even acknowledging but this time I really felt I wasn't in the wrong and believed the ticket should be cancelled. My husband still thinks I should pay and forget about it. 

 

I will be posting all threats here as they come so others can see how pathetic their constant extending deadlines are from various fake debt companies writing on behalf of each other and increasing the charge along the way until they take the case to court. They are using time and mind games to make people give in. 

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  • 2 months later...

Thanks guys! I am aware that CEL have no chance in gaining CCJ from me as I have paid my ticket which they have accepted on the day. Contract agreed and payment accepted. 

 

Not going to waste any energy or time on these threats. Will just put it to the side when it comes but I will keep on eye on the 'Letter before claim' as I know I will need to respond to that. 

 

I will post the threats as it comes so others can see CEL's procedures when threatening drivers to pay up and increasing their invoice each time. 

 

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  • 2 months later...

Happy New Year everyone. 

 

Another threat came through which I will of course ignore. - see attached.

 

I noticed they are still trying to charge the same amount as last time and not increased their fees even though they gave me 14days to pay it back in October. 

 

They don't seem to be keeping on top with their charges!

 

2021-12-31 CEL Final Reminder before DCA.pdf

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  • 5 weeks later...

Another threat that came through the post this week.

 

This time it is from the Balliffs. 

 

At the bottom of the letter it says 'This case is not subject to High Court or Balliffs actions'. Although the letter is from the Balliffs themselves. It is just another threat like previous letters but from a different company! I just can't take these guys seriously as they don't follow through. 

 

Cannot wait to receive the 'Letter of Claim' so I can tell them to P**** off! 

 

Will keep everyone posted and thank you for your support.

I have all the documents saved onto iCloud and kept hard copies filed away. 

 

2022-02-11 DCBL unpaid PCN.pdf

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  • 4 weeks later...

Thanks lookinforinto! 

 

Please see attached the NTK front and back as requested. 

 

I will email DVLA now and ask about the ABC signages which doesn't appear to have BPA nor IPC logos on their signs and see what will be confirmed. 

 

This is getting more interesting..... 

 

NTK.pdf

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Thank you so much lookinforinfo! 

 

I did try to find out if the grace period can start at the beginning but I was told grace period only applies when you leave the car park. 

 

I have emailed DVLA and have asked them all the questions you have posted. Will see what they will come back to me with. 

 

I still feel confident about my case as I have my paid ticket which they have accepted on the day. Contract agreed and accepted. Can't turn around and fine me a month later and not even offer me a refund on my ticket. 

 

I will keep everyone posted. 

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Oh really... it was from a parking fine Facebook group.

 

I didn't find them helpful at all because some comments said 10mins to pay for parking is generous and made me feel that I couldn't challenge the fine. I said most places allow us to pay for the parking when we leave. 

 

So in my case, I can also argue about the grace period too since payment went through and over by 4mins because their system was crap. But does the pay within 10mins they have claimed on their signs is part of the grace period? 

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I have unfollowed that group. Waste of my energy and time reading their posts. So glad I have found this forum though. Thanks guys!

 

I have received a response back from DVLA and they require additional information: 

 

'In order to look into this matter for you I require some additional information - vehicle VRN, Make and Model, a copy of the PCN and any other correspondence you have received.' 

 

I don't understand why they need all my information and correspondence between me and CEL? All they need is just to confirm if CEL have the rights to use ABC signages to enforce their PCN? 

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I have now received a response back from DVLA. 

 

"The DVLA takes the protection and security of its data very seriously and has procedures in place to ensure data is disclosed only where it is lawful and fair to do so and where the provisions of the Data Protection Law are met.

 

The DVLA releases information on the basis that reasonable cause is demonstrated. I have investigated this matter with Civil Enforcement Ltd, they have confirmed the PCN was issued for failure to make a payment for parking within 10 minutes of arrival, in breach of the terms and conditions of parking. (Time of entry to the car park 10:19, payment receipt issue 10:33).

 

While seeking to ensure that vehicle keeper data is released only in appropriate circumstances, it is not a matter for the Agency to decide on the merits of individual cases or to arbitrate in any civil disputes between motorists and private car park enforcement companies.

 

To help ensure motorists are treated fairly when any private parking charge is pursued the DVLA discloses vehicle keeper information only to companies that are members of an appropriate Accredited Trade Association (ATA). The purpose of requiring a company to be a member of an ATA is to ensure that those who request DVLA information are legitimate companies that operate within a code of practice that promotes fair treatment of the motorist and ensures that there is a clear set of standards for operators.

 

The company in question, Civil Enforcement Ltd are a member of the British Parking Association (BPA) which is an Accredited Trade Association for the parking industry. The BPA’s code of practice is published on its website at http://www.britishparking.co.uk under the heading “Approved Operators Scheme”. If a member of this scheme does not comply with the code of practice, it may be suspended or expelled, during which time no data will be provided to it by the DVLA.

 

If you feel that any of the practices used by the company do not comply with the BPA’s code of practice, you may wish to contact the BPA via email at Page 2 of 2 https://portal.britishparking.co.uk/compliance/LogComplaint or by post at Chelsea House, 8-14 The Broadway, Haywards Heath, West Sussex RH16 3AH

 

I trust I have explained matters but, if you remain unhappy with the service you have received, you can write to our Complaints Team and I have provided a link to our complaints procedure leaflet for your reference. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/driver-and-vehicle-licensingagency/about/complaints-procedure."

 

DVLA didn't answer my questions about ABC signages. I even sent them photos of the signs at the car park and Civil Enforcement doesn't have any signs at the car park! 

 

 

 

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Oh wow, thank you so much for making the time to write that lookinforinfo. I feel so grateful! I will definitely send it to DVLA then. 

 

I feel the person responding to my email just didn't bother investigating properly, just like POPLA. CEL knows how to play them about! 

 

I will let you know when they will reply. 

 

Thank you again and have a good weekend!

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Just seems like they all just fob motorists off when we tried to challenge them. Unbelievable! 

 

I also cannot believe that motorists would have to research deep into it to know their rights and then having to tell DVLA or POPLA what CEL are doing is wrong. No wonder why most people gives in and just pay their invoice. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Lookinforinto, thanks for checking in. I have been checking my mailbox everyday and to my surprise, I have received this today. That lady must've forwarded my complaint onto the complaints' team today. I guess there isn't much I can do now other than wait. 

 

Your case reference number is xxxxxxxxxx.

Thank you for contacting DVLA Complaints Team. Please read the following information that may help with your reason for contact.

 

Our online services are operating as usual, and we encourage customers who can use these to do so as this is the quickest way to apply.

As a result of ongoing COVID safety measures and the impact of previous industrial action by members of the Public and Commercial Services union, there are ongoing delays with processing paper applications.

POSTED APPLICATIONS

If you posted your application to us, or if you have used our online services and have been required to provide further information you will find the advertised processing times here on Gov.uk. We’re sorry for any inconvenience caused but we are working as quickly as we can to deal with your application.

If you posted your application by recorded/special delivery you can check if it’s arrived through the Royal Mail Track & Trace website.

TIMESCALES

If you have contacted us within the time frame showing on the link above and your complaint is in relation to the delay, the guidance should provide the information you need and therefore we will not progress your complaint at this time and you will not receive a further response.

DRIVING LICENCE APPLICATIONS

If you are contacting us about a driving licence matter and have already sent your application to us, you can check if it has been issued you using our view driving licence service. www.gov.uk/view-driving-licence. The ‘licence valid from date’ will be the date your last licence was issued. Once your licence has been issued please allow 2 weeks from the 'licence valid from date' to be received.

VEHICLE APPLICATIONS

If you are waiting for a V5C registration certificate (logbook) you can check on our website via https://www.gov.uk/get-vehicle-information-from-dvla this will inform you once your V5C document has been issued.

YOUR COMPLAINT

When we review the details of your complaint, if it is not in relation to delays within the advertise timeframe, or we identify a critical need for assistance we will be in touch with you as soon as possible. Our demand is currently high, and it may take us longer than usual.

If you wish to contact us/add additional information or documents regarding your complaint, please use our

form link or copy and paste the following URL in to your browser:

 

Thank you for your patience while we investigate your complaint. We would ask that you do not contact us by email, letter or phone as this will delay us in providing you with a response.

In the meantime you may find useful information at: www.gov.uk/government/organisations/driver-and-vehicle-licensing-agency

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