Bank Park ANPR PCN Claimform - Blue Car Park 2 Merry Hill Brierley DY5 1QX - *** Claim Dismissed ***

[Andy711351]

Hello All

 

I will outline the my case here but I emphasise that it has reached the hearing stage etc... and a date has been set

 

Unfortunately, I had asked the advice of a private company , which may be known to many, who deals with parking appeals, pay them £20 for them to disappear and thats why Ive reached this stage. They did write a template defense for me after so many emails but am unable to contact them so have to deal with this myself.

 

 

Case:

 

I had parked on a multicar park at a large shopping  ( i dont want to name it  as dont want to be identified)  almost 2 years ago.

 

The parking company (XXXXXk) , using ANRP sent me  the usual NTK asking for the fee of £90. I did not appeal at the time. I contacted the appealing company who apparently , just for £20 would be willing to assist me. They said if it does to court then they will need another fee which I agreed to.

 

Reason for alleged contravention- overstaying more than 4 hours ( they allege it was a few hours more) with an entry and exit time on the ANPR photos 

 

The case went to one of the debt recovery firms. who added another 50 to the 'alleged fine' .etc. 

 

The parking company did all the usual, and eventually I received a Claim form from the CCBC. This was acknowledged.

 

I replied with a 35 paragraph defense drafted by the ' appealing parking company' .

 

This was emailed to the court email address [email protected]

 

The parking company decided to proceed with small claims court ( 100 'fine', 50 damages, + court fees/interest/legal fees). 

 

 

Their legal team has now emailed me the bundle they have sent to the hearing court in  my city.

 

Within the bundle, is included a copy of the notice of allocation to small claims track ( hearing). The date of this was before Christmas. The notice gives a date and time of the hearing

 

I never received this by post. I have only found out because the bundle that the claimant has sent me has a copy of it.

 

In the notice of allocation it states that by 18th January defendant must send to the court and claimant copies of all documents he intends to rely on.

 

By 1st Feb, claimant and defendant must send to  the court and each other their witness statement that they will rely on in the final hearing .

 

 

 

Before going into the actual substance of the defense, I have some questions about this forms

 

1. I havent received a copy of the notice of allocation by the post. My post is redirected to a relative and they assure me they havent received it. I only found out today about it,  as part of the bundle that the claimant emailed me. This leaves me with really no realistic chance of responding by the deadline of 18th Jan. Any advice. Again I reiterate that because of covid and mail redirection, that is very likely to be the cause of my relative yet not receiving this document by post.

 

Furthermore , in the  defense that had been submitted previously, it was made clear that according to the CPR PD6, I give no consent to being served by electronic means yet the legal team of the claimant has emailed me the documents. 

 

 

2. I had already filed a defense  previously as drafted  by the appealing private company , so Im not sure whether i need to file another witness statement again, albeit this would be to the local court to which the hearing has been allocated to. Would the initial defense submitted at an earlier not be the same ? or do I now have a chance of writing a new one because the claimant has now filed their witness statement and all their evidence so I can be more specific in tis defense.

 

Before really divulging in the details can I please have some constructive comments/advice as to whether I need to submit a new defense , and whether the one summitted earlier to the Northampton courts would have now reached the local court where the hearing woill occur. Also, where do I stand with the deadline of next Monday which i wont meet given that I wasnt aware of this at all neither by electronic mail notification or redirected post.

 

Thankyou

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andy711351]

Thankyou FTM

 

What I had sent in was a DEFENCE whoch was prepared/drafted by one of the appealing companies.

 

Since the defence they have vanished. Their email is now returning ' undeliverable'

 

 

The bundle I received today from the PPC has everything in it, including the claim form, my DEFENCE and their WS.

 

 

I am happy to redact and post the whole bundle and then you have everything.

 

 

Am I able to post the whole bundle here redacted? 

 

the 18th January is deadline to send all documents to Claimant and court , that the DEFENDANT wish to rely upon in the final hearing . These must be in a bundle and DEFENDANT must bring the originals to the final hearing

 

The 1st February the C and D must send to the court and to each other copies of their own witness statements and those WSs they intend to reply upon in the final hearing. The WSs must comply......etc..

 

 

so I think the January one is for documents/bundles and the February one for the WS. 

 

What I filed previously was a DEFENCE which was a bit general in some points rather than specific to which the claimant WS has referred to

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andy711351]

Thankyou dx

 

I have now redacted the claimants first WS

I have also redacted the bundle which contains the claim form and my defence

I will upload but just one last check please

 

The date of the alleged contravention and the times are all visible.

Also, on the photographic ANPR the times are also visible.

 

The various hearing dates are also visible except the exact time of the day.

 

Is that OK or do i need to remove some of this info?

 

Sorry I know CPR stand for civil procedure rules but the last thing i sent was the DQ to the court and the defence.

 

I will admit one thing but please please please, its not time to start blaming me, but it was covid peak I had my sister unwell, and initially did try mediation. That was part of it. the other reason was that the private parking appeals company who had written my defence and had a letter of authority just vanished and were uncontactable. s

 

when I received the DQ, I was panicking and worried about covid and sister that I decided without admission of any guilt or that i owe them anything to go for mediation. However, that was unsuccessful.

 

Please Please its not time to start blaming me because I am a lay person and not familiar. However, I do ant to get this in time.

 

Finally, I will visit the site tomorrow and see if I can get any photographic evidence of the signages.

 

I have got a copy of the leasehold of the land from the registry.

 

I have also emailed Dudley council to see when the PPC applied for permission for  putting up the signs as well as permission for the ANRP. I sent it today so wont be ready for 18th January. 

 

Not sure if we can get a bit extra time though because none of the two documents that I will be uploading  have reached me by post. they have been emailed to me by their legal team 

 

Thankyou for all your comments.

 

 

[Andy711351]

Goodmorning 

 

Im ready to post the PDF readcted but can I have just this clarified as mentined in erlier post

 

'' The date of the alleged contravention and the times are all visible.

Also, on the photographic ANPR the times are also visible.

 

The various hearing dates are also visible except the exact time of the day.

 

Is that OK or do i need to remove some of this info?''

 

Thanks

 

15 hours ago, dx100uk said:

please put their WS up leave all times/dates etc... can't hurt you

but simply omit your reg/any ref numbers etc.

 

the quicker you do that the quicker your WS gets done.

@dx100ukThanks for the reply 

 

I think you just beat me to it. Im posting now

 

Claim form and my defence which I sent to the curt in August

 

Claimant first witness statement 

 

 

Claimant first Witness Statement.pdf

Claim form and my defence (1).pdf

[Andy711351]

The firm I used to assist me with the initial defense was private parking appeals. Their site is no longer reachable. Perhaps they have stopped trading or closed the company. 

 

To be fair they did help me with my defence which I submitted but I dont know what happened. Maybe because of the pandemic they stopped trading

[Andy711351]

Thanks FTM

 

Did a search on dudley council site for the postcode of the shopping centre. Didnt find anything but Im not really sure if i did everything correctly. 

 

I called the council and spoke to someone who gave me an email address to write to. I have emailed Dudley council asking for permission planning for

 

 

1. signages

2. ANPR

 

Im not sure of which portal to search n but if you anyone has the link then I would be grateful for it

 

The shopping  Centre post code is DY5 1QX if anyone is interested. 

 

I will have a go at the portal now

 

 

 

Yes BankFodder

 

 

[Andy711351]

Thankyou FTM

 

Many more loopholes also

 

I was there probably longer than 4 hours but i wasnt in the blue car park all the time. The site has 13 car parks as per 

 

 

The "red" and "blue" car parks serve the upper and lower retail parks. Others serve M&S, Argos, Debenhams and the Odeon cinema.

A Merry Hill spokeswoman said: "Parking at Intu Merry Hill is completely free of charge for all shoppers. To ensure that there are enough spaces for our shoppers we have introduced a four-hour time restriction on just two of our thirteen car parks, at the upper and lower retail park.

"Shoppers who are visiting us for longer than four hours are free to park on any of our other car parks for as long as they wish."

 

So i was with my ex partner and we went round many shops and pared at various car parks some which were free

 

There are 8 signages and on one of them it does state the 4 hour rule but i have seen other loopholes

 

Re the authority, yes the letter is two years old but the alleged contravention happened only 2 months after the letter. Agree not a contract but a letter but it being out of date may be irrelevant because the contravention was in June 2019 and the leter was in April 2019.

 

I just am not sure whether, them having been granted the ' permission' whether in two months form that permission from the management company, they would have had enought time to get planning permission from the council.

 

Im looking at the PPC thread and successes. Must say I am after a good template WS but am reading through loads of posts . is there any paricular ones with with a good WS. 

 

Finally, I think as in my attachments, the deadline is 1st of february for submitting my WS.

 

18Jan is for any documents that i wish to use as evidence, but the 1st of feb is the deadline for my WS

 

Lets say i get my WS sent to the court and claimant by the 18th deadline, wont that give them enough opportunity to get rid of many of their loopholes and come up with a more consistent and better second WS?

[Andy711351]

Thax dx100uk

 

Can I just confirm one thing 

 

on the notice of allocation to SC court ( hearing), which i have uploaded also in the original uploads, it states

 

By the 18th jan 2021, the Claimant must send to the court and the defendant copies of all documents he intends to rely on upon the final hearing. These must be in a bundle.....

 

By the 18th jan, the defendant must send to the court and the claimant copies of all documents he intends to rely on upon the final hearing. these must be in a bundle...etc

 

By the 1st February 2021, the CLAIMANT and DEFENDANT  must send to the court and to each other , copies of their own witness statements and those witness statements of all the witnesses they intend to rely upon at the final hearing. The Witness statement must comply ....

 

1. can someone please explain to me these 2 different deadlines. My understanding is that the 18th January would be suitable for things like copies of a lease or any evidence and the 1st of February if for the witness statements. As I am only submitting a WS, have I not got until the 1st Feb deadline .

 

2. I specifically ask if they get a second chance because if we read through their first WS, under all the exhibits, it clearly says 1st WS. To me that implies that once i have submitted my WS, they may have an opportunity to respond before the 1st of Feb with a second WS ( otherwise, why would they mention in their exhibits, 1st WS-- I infer that there may be a second WS, if they choose to submit one...).

 

I am sorry to ask so much but I dont ant to send in a rushed one if i have till the 1st of Feb. Also, if the first of Feb is the deadline, I will leave it a few days only before i send t to the claimant just incase they have an opportunity to send in a second WS.

 

 

[Andy711351]

OK will do

 

Am at work today ( NHS)( late shift)  so will try my best.

 

Thanks

[Andy711351]

Sorry Dx not sure I understand  what you mean but are  you referring to exhibit one which is just a letter from the management company to the PPC? Contract between the PPC and the landwoner you mean??

 

The contravention was June 22019. If they had summitted a proper contract between PPC and landowner dated April 2019, then would that not be acceptable because it would have been formed 2 months before the contravention and would have been at the time deemed upto date ? 

[Andy711351]

Sorry, had to swap my shift in order to get the WS done.

 

Been to the site today and have taken photos..

 

Just replying to few questions posed earlier by the respectable caggers

 

 

1. The NTK was dated 25/6/2019 and yes it was close to the contravention date of 15/6/2019. Because I was moving home, I had my mail on redirection to a relative so cannot be sure when she received it, but I suspect the PPC must have wisened up from past experience and sent it within the 14 day rule and if dated 25th June, it still had 4 days to arrive so I think its probably compliant from a date point of view

 

 

2. The Letter of claim was dated 19/11 2019. Claim form 8/7/2020. Therefore 8 months apart.

 

3. Unsigned template between the PPc and managent company ( Exhibit 1)  IS SIGNED. I have redacted it so it appears unsigned but there is a signature . So although its not a contract, please take note that there is both a name and a signature on it. Its just that I  have redacted it .

 

4. Double Dipping- I have bank statements showing I went to Nandos/BM and a few more. I know I wasnt in one space for the whole duration but the shopping centre is such that all is connected so providing receipts from various shops wont necessarily proof that I moved the car because all the shops are kind of interconnected. there is a Home Sense which actually appears to have a free parking with no legally binding signages at its entrance. I do remember going there but didnt buy anything. 

[Andy711351]

4 hours ago, dx100uk said:

did you get a letter of claim and reply pack about 1 month before the issuance of the claimform.?

The Letter of claim was dated 19/11 2019. Claim form 8/7/2020. Therefore 8 months apart

[Andy711351]

Thanks DX 100

 

haha i totally  agree with your comment about the page 20 

 

Yes I am awake and been all night w my WS

 

BUT can I point this very very very impt point please, which I am not sure if it has come to your attention

 

1. The payment machine and 6 hours and the free parking after 4.30 pm on a Saturday etc....all taken on board.

 

HOWEVER, and I cant stop myself laughing, this pay machine  he eludes to is based at The Market Shopping Centre Car park , after googling it is in CREWE.  It is not even relevant. They have put in a signage that is not even at the Merry Hill Centre which is in the West Midlands. 

 

The Merry Hill Centre is the one I went to in Dudley, west midlands. All the signages , apart from the one you elude to have the intu Merry Hill logo

 

The one you refer to is in Crewe.

I have never been to Crewe in my life lol so that signage is totally irrelevant 

 

we can play this either way:

 

1. can take up your line of argument regarding the 6 hours etc. and pretned we are also using the pay machine 

 

OR

 

2. totally dismiss it as being irrelevant, misleading , wasting the time of everyone by providing irrelevant info.

Thats what I have argued in my WS so far. That signage does not belong to inTu Merry Hill 

 

This is akin to someone being on annual leave from work between say 1.10 .2020 and 1.11.2020, and then finding out one of his/her colleagues saying,  I saw you leaving work early last week , the 15th of October 2020.

 

hello !!!, I wasnt even in the country on the 15th of October 2020 !!

 

essentially thats what the claimant has done . The signage on page 20 doesnt even belong to the shopping centre I went to

 

I will log out and carry on with th WS  

 

Thanks again    

 

[Andy711351]

This is a draft of my WS

 

By no means final

 

Negatives:

 

doesnt follow smoothly 

 

long winded

 

not much referene to cases except Beavis

 

I have tried to attach appendied but failed miserably, but I may not need them

 

The appendix are essentially:

 

 IPC COP example of a contract between landowner and a PPC

 

IPC COP re entrance signages

 

IPC COD re sanctions on members who dont comply

 

JPEG of the erected signage showing that its back is to the entrance of the car park hence not in immediate view

 

JPEG of a receipt from 16.1.2021 ( yesterday) proving I went there and had a look at the signages

 

Not really sure if the appendices will make much difference en my defence

 

Please make any constructive comments etc..

 

I will have a look at the many links  FTM Dave kindly provided. I haven't in detail because bene typing for the last 7 hours 

 

Anyhow Thanks All

WS redacted-merged.pdf

[Andy711351]

Hello Dx100

 

Its OK lol for you not seeing that point, but can we use the fact that they have filed irrelevant evidence to our advantage?

 

Its over 1.5 yeas ago but from my recollection , as the site is vast, ( I even visited it yesterday !!!!), in order to visit some shops, like Homesense, which is a fair distance  from the blue car park park,  rather than keeping the car in one spot and walking all the way to the distant shops, its far easier to drive and re-park at a new site, which as I recollect is what I did, but cant give exact times. I must have returned at some point to the Blue car park to pick up my partner as she does like to spend long hours  in  shops, . To be 100% truthful, I cant remember the exact time of  the initial exit and re-entries  into the blue car park, so I feel we may have better grounds homing in on the numerous signages they have included some which dont t even have times restrictions for customers, such as the signages on ages 14 and 17, where the only restriction on the later is 2 hours maximum stay for STAFF only

 

As Dave eluded to in post #26, I feel the signages, double recovery and locus standi are the points that perhaps we should home on, because I would be a bit worried about the double dipping being the main one as i truthfully cant remember my exact activities and journeys within the shipping complex car prks on that day 100%.

 

I am getting nervous as my WS is a bit long winded and very clearly that of a lay man , with not many 'test cases' being brought to the judges attention, purely because I only received the claimants WS on FRIDAY 15th Jan 2021 by email at 1.45 pm .

 

With a bit more time, I would be more relaxed nd ben able to read through many other cases much more thoroughyl but am a bit worried

 

 

 

 

Yes, there is no monetary fees involved at  merry Hill so correct never paid them  a penny 

[Andy711351]

Thankyou Dx100

 

The car park in question is FREE. Nobody has to pay any parking fees. I DID NOT pay any parking fees.

 

I hope that clarifies that matter.

 

 

 

 

[Andy711351]

I have a few transactions on my Bank statement dated 17th June 2019 ( 15th was a Saturday, so on my Bank statements, the actual transaction shows up on the 17th ( Monday).

 

There are a few transactions on My bank statements which appear wwith the date 17th June 2019

 

1. Sainsbury transaction-   

2. B&M

3. The Range

4. Macdonalds

5. Costa Coffee

6. Gelato Divino 

7, Nandos

 

I have to wait and ask my ex partner ( she is at work, I have asked her but she is at work over the weekend)

 

 

 

[Andy711351]

Thankyou Dx100 

You are wesome 

 

'and all those are within that merry hill complex great

no need for anything more then.'

 

My Reply: 

 

All these transactions belong to retailers who trade at Merry  Hill. Hand on heart, the bank statement doesnt specify for every transaction if its the branch at Merry Hill or not. The Nandos transaction does specify Merry Hill on the bank statement, but MacDonalds, BM , Costa..etc transactions on my bank statements dont specifically show whether  it was at the branches located at merry Hill or not

 

'so i cant see anywhere on their signs that says max 4hrs, other than in their WS

but we'll assume it must be'

 

My Reply:

 

The only signage with the 4 hour overstay period is on page 15 of Exhibit 2 of the claimant WS, so there is one out of the 8 signages showing that 4 hour limit

'

so... if you were to plot where each shop is using their signs map

i bet several are no where near C3 so you must have driven around'

 

My Reply: 

 

totally agree although need a magnifying glass to read their map lol

 

'might prove to the judge you have obviously now done your homework!! rather than following crap on the internet '

 

My Reply: 

 

But I actually haven't followed anything on the internet. This was all written based on my logical deduction. For example, I think I am reasonable in stating in my WS that the Claimant has just supplied at least 8 signages and this appears more like a widely used template for this site that they use rather than specifically just supplying the signage in relation to the contravention ie the 4 hour maximum overstay. Is it not reasonable to state in the defence WS that the Defendant finds this confusing as he is not sure to which of the 8 signages the claimant is referring to, especially where some of them dont have a maximum time period on them

 

I have a question please about Planning permission

 

Is it the managing company , in this case Intu management limited which mages the Merry Hill centre that needs to apply for permission to erect the parking signages and ANPR or is it the parking company Bank Park which has to apply to the planning and town authorities

 

In effect, should it be specifically  the PPC who applies for these kind of permissions from the relevant authorities?

 

https://www5.dudley.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2099431

 

https://www5.dudley.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPCRITERIA

 

I have done this search on the dudley coucil site for the relevant post code and left the date fields empty.

 

I have looked through all the 4 pages that the search result yields and see no proof that the PPC has ever made an application

 

Im sorry I am panicking now.

 

I am reading through some successful cases and defence statements and am very impressed by them. Mines is no where as good and as Dx 100 is of 35 paras. 

 

I have my points made in a meticulous way but very disorganized and disjointed . Non eare from the internet. they are all my logical deductions. For example, the NTK charge is £90 yet in the Claimant WS para 23iii, they mention £100. Is tn that by its own virtue confusing to the defendant? If I did owe them, which I dont then, is it £90 ? £ 100. Im trying to make the point to the court that they are very inconsistent. 

 

I just dont know how to word mine to make it as concise. 

 

Please help if you suggest how to make it more concise. 

 

I havent used enough test cases because without knowing the cases in detail i dont an to say too much in case it is actually used not in my favour but to my detriment

[Andy711351]

Thankyou Dave. Really most obliged

 

Thankyou.

 

I am reading through the links you posted on previous cases and reading through all the previous defence WS to see how I can perhaps make mine more concise and bried.. 

[Andy711351]

Thanks Dave

 

'In paragraph 23, after "The Market Shopping Centre", add "in Crewe, 57 miles away".'

 

My Reply:

 

Thanks Dave, but are you sure its para 23. Did you mean Para 12 ?

[Andy711351]

Dave, para 3 relates to my residential/post al address address.

 

When the contravention occured on the 15th June 2019, I had just moved from Cheltneham to Gloucester. My driving license had not been updated to Gloucester at the time. In addition the Gloucester address was not reliable because the mail isnt delivered specifically to my flat int eh complex, but its all left downstairs  with no pigeon holes etc..

 

So when I posted my initial defence a long time ago using private parking appeals to help me,  I made it clear that I live now in Gloucester, but because the postal delivery is not at best reliable, any mail sent to my old address in Cheltenham ( which is what the PPC have) should be re directed to my relatives address in London.

 

My point in Para 3, is to correct that and make it clear now to all parties, the claimant and court that I wish now to use my current residential address , because if they send anything to my old address in Cheltenham, I wont receive it. Hence I want to inform everyone of an address update.  So as the hearing isnt till April i dint want any post to be sent to my old address in Cheltenham m anymore.

 

Whats the best way to make that clear to every party involved in this case, please , if I was to delete para 3?

[Andy711351]

Thanks Dave

 

I am so grateful to you as it is so please dnt apologise

[Andy711351]

Thanks DX100

 

I cant see why they are managing parking at all if 1st 4 hrs is free??

 

My Reply:

 

Merry Hill has 7 car parks according to their website. 

 

They are all free but the blue car park is subject to time restrictions, meaning the customer has the benefit of free parking for upto 4 hours.

 

Anything over 4 hours in that Blue car park, the motorist will receive a parking charge notice.

 

I am not sure therefore how they make money

 

 

 

get up on planning website find if they have it..i bet not

 

My reply:

 

I have searched the Dudley borough council online search platform for the post code DY5 1QX and looked through all the results for planning permissions without even entering a date range. So far nothin. 

 

By the way, if they did have permission would it be them who would have been the applicants for the permission or the management company in charge of the overall management of the whole complex?

[Andy711351]

'Have a read of this thread.  It's short and I know the OP did a lot of work investigating planning permission'

 

My reply:

Thankyou Dave 

 

I had a detailed read of the link you provided kindly.I looked at the documents provided and it appears that it doesnt  necessarily have to be the PPC that applies to the city council for the permission to erect signages /ANRP on private land. By reading through the documents provided on that link, the managing company or landowner can apply for the permission and once granted and  in place, the PPC can go ahead and erect signages/ANRP

 

 

so coming bac to my case, I searched Dudley council sight for all the applications. I did a postcode search first. the I did another search entering merry Hill shopping Centre and I am not convinced that there is planning permission in pplace.

 

The only way to be 100% sure is to have correspondence form the Council in writing but i guess its a bit late for my case. On balance or probabilities, looking at Dudley Council site, i dont think there is one in place.

 

Based on this info that I just provided , shall I mention the PP point or omit it? Is the online portal search enough, or is written proof needed?

 

 

[Andy711351]

Second Draft with appendices 

 

So grateful for any adjustments comments extar points

 

Thankyou XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Defendant 2nd Draft WS.pdf