CEL ANPR PCN PAPLOC now Claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park Denmark Hill Camberwell, London SE5 8RW - paid-did not enter Reg No - POPLA rejected appeal

[yewneik]

Hi all,

 

Wish I had found this place sooner as have obviously stuck my foot in it proceeding with appeals, hoping I might be able to get some advice anyhow.

 

I received a parking ticket for the car park outside of Morrisons in Camberwell, London, as I didn't think parking was that technical, I ignored the signage, proceeded into Morrisons, got change, came back out, put £2 in the machine and thought nothing of it. I then spent £10 in store to redeem my parking charge and went about life thinking nothing more about it.

 

I then received a £100 as it turns out you need to input your registration number, I obviously didn't keep my parking ticket so evidently I'm shafted.

 

I appealed via the CE website, stating the above, which was rejected, and then again to POPLA which has again been rejected (this time showing my bank statement with an £8 charge at Morrisons).

 

Citezens advice say I could go to small claims over the ticket, but with a lack of evidence and no response from Morrisons I'm a bit buggered.

 

Does any one have any advice on how I should proceed, or should I pay the £100 and never frequent a car park of this nature again?

 

Just very crappy timing to have had to Pay £102 to go to Morrisons.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

DM

 

 

[yewneik]

Thanks for correctly labelling my post, apologies, first time on the site.

 

Alas no, I have no documentation stating I purchased a ticket, my only hope would be getting the CCTV from Morrisons. I could follow up to see if they could confirm my purchase? Bank statement shows nothing except "£8 at a Morrisons"

 

Unfortunately the only response I got back from Morrisons, was a 'sorry it's nothing to do with us email'. Which was charming.

[yewneik]

228_image_plans.pdf

[yewneik]

Sorry for the errors all, and your help.

 

1 Date of the infringement 2 July 2020
 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]  02/07/2020
 

[scan up BOTHSIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide]

 

3 Date received  2 weeks later?
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]  N
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?  Have contacted Morrisons about the incident, there should be CCTV, if it hasn't been deleted
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]  Y

 

It was filled out online, appeal was rejected as I had no evidence to support my claim, beside payment to Morrisons on my bank statement.
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up  Y...Appeal rejected.
 

7 Who is the parking company? Civil Enforcement
 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Morrisons, Butterfly walk, Camberwell, London, SE5 8RW
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. Further appealed via POPLA which was again rejected
 

 

DM-PCNs.pdf

[yewneik]

Yeah, I handed a second part of the ticket to the Cashier.

 

Thanks very much for your help all. I shall get in touch with the DVLA!

[yewneik]

Thanks for help all,

 

Morrisons again came back and said, 'it's a private car park, so nothing to do with us.' I've emailed back asking about proof of purchase or CCTV data, but with no response yet.

 

Also messaged the DVLA on data requests. As mentioned on the demonstration letter, it says the .gsi email address isn't active any more I've instead gone directly to @ dvla.gov.uk and received an automated response that it had been received, so will let you know what they say.

 

All the best

[yewneik]

By Debit card, but unfortunately this doesn't give me a breakdown of what was purchased. I will now be forever doomed to keep every recipe I get.

[yewneik]

Yeah, this is what I sent through to the second appeal, alas to no resolution.

 

Hoping on Morrisons actually helping out, otherwise the data request from the DVLA is sort of my last option.

[yewneik]

There are a few signage applications, but haven't found the cameras yet.

 

This is the only application I've found that specifically references the Car Park so far:

https://planning.southwark.gov.uk/online-applications-old/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=_STHWR_DCAPR_9532383&activeTab=summary

[yewneik]

PDF including them near the start of the chain, I'm going to head down today to take my own and speak to the manager in Morrisons, hoping to be able to get CCTV and proof of purchase, but not holding my breath.

[yewneik]

Right, seems I've been absolutely fleeced on this one.

 

Have spoken to the manager of Morrisons, all transaction records are scrubbed after 28 days, as is CCTV footage. So no way to verify my purchase.

 

They also wash their hands of any responsibility, stating even their bosses get tickets and they can't get out of it.

 

All CCTV outside the store is owned by the car park. So possibility I could request it under GDPR, but almost certain they won't have a camera on the pay and display machine.

 

Signage on entrance to the car park does not show Terms and conditions, but does state see other signage for T&C's. so 50/50 on that avenue.

 

Signage in the car park does state Civil Enforcement will handle the follow up, so the idea of an incorrect company coming after me is also out the window.

 

Parking meters do not state the terms and conditions, but it irritatingly does say enter your registration number. Not sure if I've got anything with that.

 

Attached images of parking meter.

 

Other than this I think I'm royally stuffed,

 

Unless anyone can see a way around it I'm just going to stump up as I have a feeling these guys are very happy to go to small claims court or call up the bailiffs.

 

Thanks for all your help anyway.

 

DM

Morrisons_Denmarkhill_Ticketmachine.pdf

[yewneik]

Thanks very much lookinforinfo, good to hear a bit of good news.

 

My only question is how to proceed now.

I've chased up the DVLA so will see what comes from that.

 

In the meantime, should I follow back up with CEL, firstly requesting their CCTV footage of that day under my GDPR rights. Then stating that their entry way signage did not include their terms and conditions, thus nullifying any 'contract' I would have entered with them. Lastly sending them the image of the parking meter with excluded any of their terms and conditions at point of purchase.

 

We can then see where we end up, saving the GDPR breach, lack of planning permission for their signage and cameras and penalty being unenforceable for if they attempt to escalate the charge.

 

Again you've all been a big help and I really appreciate your time.

[yewneik]

Perfect, make a lovely file of future origami fodder until or if a Letter Before Claim arrives.

 

At which point it's time to get my legal ducks in a row.

[yewneik]

For reference, this is what the appeal through POPLA came back with:

 

Decision

Unsuccessful

 

Assessor Name

xxx

 

Assessor summary of operator case

The operator has issued the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) due to failing to make payment.

 

Assessor summary of your case

The appellant’s case is that he did purchase a parking ticket on the day of the breach.

 

He states the payment machine did not request a vehicle registration (VRM) so he did not enter one but did pay and redeem it inside the store.

 

He states that the operator will be able to see that a ticket was purchased at the time he was on site, without a VRM attached.

 

The appellant adds that CCTV will demonstrate he purchased parking time and his bank statement demonstrates he purchased goods inside the store. The appellant has provided evidence to support the appeal.

 

Assessor supporting rational for decision

The appellant has identified as the driver of the vehicle on the day of the parking event. As such, I am considering the appellant’s liability for the PCN, as the driver.

 

When entering onto a private car park such as this one, any motorist forms a contract with the operator by remaining on the land for a reasonable period.

 

The signage in place sets out the terms and conditions of this contract.

 

The operator has provided photographic evidence of the signage in place in the car park, which states: “PHONE AND PAY OR PAY AT MACHINE. 1 HOUR £2.00…If you do not obtain a valid permit you must pay within 10 minutes of arrival and provide your full, exact registration number when making your payment…If you breach any of these terms you will be charged £100”.

 

The operator has provided photographic evidence of the appellant’s vehicle, entering the car park at 12:20, and exiting at 12:49, totalling a stay of 28 minutes.

 

The operator has provided evidence to demonstrate that the appellant did not pay to park.

 

The appellant explains that he did purchase a parking ticket on the day of the breach.

 

He states the payment machine did not request a vehicle registration (VRM) so he did not enter one but did pay and redeem it inside the store.

 

He states that the operator will be able to see that a ticket was purchased at the time he was on site, without a VRM attached.

 

The appellant adds that CCTV will demonstrate he purchased parking time and his bank statement demonstrates he purchased goods inside the store.

 

I acknowledge the appellants grounds of appeal and do believe that the appellant purchased parking time, but it is evident that he did not enter his VRM.

 

I appreciate that the payment machine may not have requested this, but it is clear from the signage that it is a requirement when paying to park.

 

It is clear the appellant was aware that payment was needed to park but failed to read the terms of parking in error.

 

I have reviewed the operators evidence pack and it has provided images of signage on site which make the terms of parking clear.

 

I appreciate the appellant states the signage in the centre of the car park did not stipulate this, but he has provided no evidence to show what the signage in the centre of the car park stated.

 

The operator has provided images of signage throughout the site, all of which make the terms of parking clear, and the full and correct VRM must be entered when making payment.

 

The operator has provided a list to demonstrate other motorists followed the terms and entered their vehicle registration via the terminal.

 

Although I do take the appellants point on board and the operator may be able to locate a vehicle with no VRM entered at the time of the breach, but it is not their responsibility to do so, it is the motorist’s responsibility to comply with the terms of parking.

 

I fully accept that CCTV may show the appellant paying to park, but it is the responsibility of the motorist to request this from Morrisons and provide this to POPLA as part of his appeal.

 

We cannot obtain evidence on behalf of the operator or the appellant.

 

I note that the appellant has provided a copy of his bank statement which demonstrates he was a legitimate user of the site, but this does not demonstrate that parking time was purchased unfortunately.

 

Whilst I fully sympathise with the appellant I must advise that POPA’s remit is to assess the validity of the PCN, as the appellant has provided no evidence that parking time was purchased and the operator has provided clear evidence that it is a requirement to enter the VRM when purchasing parking time, I can only conclude that the PCN was issued accordingly.

 

I have reviewed the operators evidence pack and it has provided images of the appellants vehicle entering and exiting the site.

 

It has provided images of the signage on site which are clear, legible and evenly spread, this sets out the terms of parking and the PCN amount if the terms are not met.

 

I acknowledge the appellant’s comments, however when looking at appeals, POPLA considers whether a parking contract was formed and, if so, whether the motorist kept to the conditions of the contract.

 

POPLA cannot allow an appeal if a contract was formed and the motorist did not keep to the parking conditions.

 

Ultimately, it is the motorist’s responsibility to comply with the terms and conditions of the car park.

 

Upon consideration of the evidence, the appellant did not comply with the terms and conditions by failing to make payment.

 

As such, I conclude that the PCN has been issued correctly.

 

Accordingly, I must refuse this appeal.

[yewneik]

Good stuff, thanks all!

[yewneik]

Also, revisited the carpark today and it appears they have fixed the machine. So you can no longer purchase a ticket without entering a reg number. Very infuriating. But we shall see what comes next.

 

Cheers all.

[yewneik]

Update with the notice from the DVLA,

 

The signage in the Car Park states that all claims will be followed up by CEL,

 

am I right in thinking that it's against DVLA rules because CEL are not the Carpark Owner and it's illegal to apply for records for a non member. IE CEL were allowed to get my data, but not to chase it on behalf of the car park?

 

I guess this is the tricky bit, I am up against CEL, and they were wrong to obtain my information as they are not the owner of the carpark?

 

Thanks all!

 

David

CEL_DVLA.pdf

[yewneik]

Morrisons want nothing to do with it, literally washing their hands of the entire thing.

 

The only thing I have in defence of my claim, is my bank statement showing an £8 transaction in that Morrisons with no further details.

 

Morrisons now have no record of their CCTV or the transaction, as it was too late when I requested it.

 

All the CCTV in the Car Park is owned by the car park. So when claiming in previous appeals the CCTV would show I paid, they know that I don't have that footage, I could request the footage, but will involve getting backing in touch with CEL.

 

Getting a bit antsy as of what to do next.

Would rather this whole thing would go away, but it from other forums it does sound like CEL are cantankerous.

And it would go to a game of who would show up in court.

I'm just not sure a bank statement is enough?

 

All the best,

 

DM

 

 

[yewneik]

...no, but I guess I am pre-empting. If I do receive a 'letter of claim', this is the information I have on my side.

 

If I do receive a Letter of Claim, will I be liable for the Unicorn Tax, as a previous poster so wonderfully put it. Or will I only be held for the £100 fine?

 

I'm just getting the fear I guess, while I know that I am in the right, I'm just getting worried they will hit me with a whopping bill for making them escalate it to court, then that I don't have enough on my side in defence. I realise this may be the result of watching far too many crime dramas. Again, thanks everyone for their patience and help.

[yewneik]

Thanks lookforinfo, think I’m having a crisis of confidence, guess that’s the idea though! You’ve all been a massive help.

[yewneik]

Hi all,

 

Just wanted to check in with the latest nonsense from these guys. They say the debt will be passed to a collection agency, is that even possible with out going to court? Their threats seem to just skip this part of the process out?

 

Should I be responding to them that I will happily discuss the case in court. Just getting wary of sitting on an ever mounting, if total tosh, bill.

 

All the best,

 

David

 

final reminder.pdf

[yewneik]

Thanks all, just feel the need to sense check on these.

 

Cheers for calming my nerves!

 

David

[yewneik]

Just to keep things updated, Just received the below, it appears a debt collection group have taken over the case and will be the ones to take me to court. Also very useful that I received the letter on Sunday, missing the payment date stated in the letter. Just wondering if now is a good time to contact Civil Enforcement Limited regarding the CCTV footage of the Carpark, as if it does go to court this will be the best piece of evidence in my defence?

 

Will have a look for a letter template for requesting this in the forums, but if someone has a direct link I'd appreciate it.

 

As always thanks for advice in advance.

 

All the best,

 

Yewneik

 

 

IMG_9500.pdf

Edited January 11, 2021 by yewneik

[yewneik]

And the involved companies grow:

 

 

QDR-PCN.pdf

[yewneik]

Right, A big boy come this time,

 

Should I be getting my ducks in a row now?

 

I assume I can use the included form to request their cctv records of the day, and their planning permission for signage and ANPR cameras in the car park?

 

Or is it time to suck it up, pay them a stupid amount of money and save myself from having my credit score buggered?

 

Cheers all

 

Y

PCN-250321s.pdf