Southern Water/shumans/Shakespeare Martineau claim form - debts from 2007 - 1st claim struck out - now 2nd claim.

[Bekki0405]

Name of the Claimant ? Southern Water Services

Date of issue – 12th December 2018

 

Particulars of Claim

 

1.The Claimant is a statutory water and sewerage undertaker to the Water Industry Act 1991 (the Act)

 

2.The Claimant claims the sum of £4559.62 for unpaid water and/or sewerage charges payable under s.142-144 of the Act and the Claimants’ Charges Scheme.

 

3.The unpaid sum of £4559.62 is for water and/or sewerage services provided to the Defendant(s) at XX XXXXX XXXXX (my address is here) for the period 11/07/2007 to 09/07/2018

 

4.The claimant claims interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year from 09/07/2018 to 11/12/2018 on £154.90 and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment at a daily rate of £1.00

 

Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? No

 

What is the total value of the claim? £4559.62

 

Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? water

 

When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? No

Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? No

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Original creditor

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? No

 

Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor?

 

Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Default sums” – at least once a year ? No

 

Why did you cease payments? Redundancy

 

What was the date of your last payment? Unsure

 

Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No

 

Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan - i made a plan to pay through a card but found it difficult to pay through the card plan

 

 

…………….

 

Can anyone help me with filing an online response to a claim form I received via Shulmans for a Southern Water debt.

I realise I will have something to pay, but they are claiming from 09/07/2007 and I only moved into the property in the November 2007.

 

In addition, am I right in thinking that that over 6 years is subject to the statute of limitations and can therefore not be claimed for.

 

I completed an acknowledgment form within the 14 days,

but I’m now feeling anxious that my online response covers everything correctly to give me the best outcome.

​Help needed

Edited January 12, 2019 by dx100uk
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[Bekki0405]

So, I haven’t made any payments in this time, so I need theory they can’t claim. How do I go about writing this on my response.

 

Do I defend part of it? In which case, how do I know how much I have to pay because they didn’t send me the breakdown particulars with the claim

[Bekki0405]

Thank you bankfodder. That makes sense. I was concerned because the claim form is either admit part, which I don’t know how much that would be, or defend all, but I understand that I owe something. So that doesn’t fit. I’m assuming you can’t defend all if you feel you owe something? But if I admit part, how will the court know what I would owe.

[Bekki0405]

In all honesty bankfodder,

I have very little defence,

I’m not very good with money,

and my husband is worse.

 

However, I have made a promise this year I’m going to get it sorted, and I have made budget plans and started paying debts off.

 

I have started the MCOL lots of times,

but not submitted it because I felt confused as to which way to go.

 

I had forgotten that this website existed,

I had signed up when I needed some previous help,

but haven’t been on since.

 

I googled for advice, and CAG came up.

When I went online, I realised I had a log in.

 

I of course accept people’s judgement of my poor financial decisions,

which is part of the reason for hiding the issues away,

because it was easier at the time to continue moving along in life without addressing them.

 

However,

I’m big enough and ugly enough to stand up finally (!) and pay this debt off as well as making plans to pay all my other debt off and become more financial intelligent.

 

I’m not sure my husband is been there yet,

hence why I’ve taken over the finances.

Someone’s got to take this on

Edited January 12, 2019 by dx100uk
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[Bekki0405]

Definitely definitely agree! I started with Southern Water because it was time driven. I think I might become a prolific cagger in my desire to get out of debt.

I judge myself harder than anyone on here can, and I’m responsible for being in this position. However I have the will to move out of this position and I thank people like yourself for offering advice and support to financial airheads like myself

[Bekki0405]

I notice that you haven't answered my question about whether or not you have changed your address

 

No, I moved here in Nov 2007 and haven’t moved since. I have received SW bills but not from Shulmans. Although I note from other SW posts, UK Search are often the DCA

[Bekki0405]

Thank you DX. Let me get this clear in my head. I’ve read all the SW cases on here, and I’m on MCOL filing in my response. I am to defend all of the claim, and in my defence will be the error on the date of the start of the date, as well as the debt having 5 years out of time for 2007-2012.

 

And do I need to complete a CPR 31:34 which I see has been suggested for others when there is some debt owed.

 

Ok first draft defence response. Thoughts!

 

The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.

 

It is accepted that I currently reside in an area that is serviced by the Claimant is a statutory water and sewerage undertaker pursuant to the Water Industry Act 1991 (the Act).

 

The Claimant claim of £4449.62 for unpaid sewerage charges payable under s.142-144 of the Act and the Claimants' Charges Scheme for the period 11/07/2007 to 09/07/2018 is denied.

 

The claimant has never contacted or requested this amount and did not receive the Pre Action protocol of October 2017.

 

The Defendant moved into the property in question in November 2007 and therefore the start date of the claim is beyond the liability of the defendants.

Furthermore the claimant is prevented from back billing for a period of more than 6 years pursuant to the limitation act 1980.

 

It is brought to the Courts attention that on receipt of this claim dated 12 December 2017 I contacted Shulmans to discuss the fact that I moved into my property in November 2007, and therefore cannot be liable for the debt as claimed from 11/07/2007.

 

I requested information with regards to making a payment arrangement or through the Watersure scheme but was advised that this is not now possible as the debt had been passed to UK Search.

I was offered a payment card, but no details of how to use this.

It is therefore for the above reasons that the claimant claim is

denied.

 

Hmm, do I state on my defence that I’ve sent a CPR 31:14 off?

[Bekki0405]

I assume you mean with my own dates and total claimed. Think that’s the OP

I’m happy to put this, however how do I highlight that I didn’t live there between June and November

[Bekki0405]

Ok, this is my defence then. If I enter this into the MCOL defence, on the defend all of the claim section, and file it with them tonight.

Then file a CPR 31:14 with Shulmans for all the bills relating to their claim timeline. Anything else I should do. I’ll file my CPR 31:14 next for someone to look over.

 

The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.

 

 

The Claimant has not complied with paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) Failed to serve a letter of claimicon pre claim pursuant to PAPDC changes of the 1st October 2017.It is respectfully requested that the court take this into consideration pursuant to 7.1 PAPDC.

 

It is accepted that I currently reside in an area that is serviced by the Claimant as a statutory water and sewerage undertaker pursuant to the Water Industry Act 1991 (the Act).

 

The Claimants claim of £4559.62 for unpaid sewerage charges payable under s.142-144 of the Act and the Claimants' Charges Scheme for the period 09/07/2007 to 11/12/2018 is denied.

 

The claimant has never billed or contacted or requested this amount and is put to strict proof to evidence this fact.

The Defendant moved into the property in question in November 2007 and therefore the start date of the claim is beyond the liability of the defendants.

Furthermore the claimant is prevented from back billing for a period of more than 6 years pursuant to the limitation acticon 1980.

 

I requested information with regards to making a payment arrangement or through the Watersure scheme but was advised that this is not now possible as the debt had been passed to UK Search.

 

I was offered a payment card, but no details of how to use this.

 

It is therefore for the above reasons that the claimant claim is

denied.

Edited January 12, 2019 by dx100uk
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[Bekki0405]

The CPR is what I’ve been advised I need to compete tonight.

I will post this first thing on Monday.

 

The MCOL defence statement,

which I was looking for help with,

is the piece in post 23,

which bankfodder has advised I should highlight the date error,

which is how I would have approached it.

 

However, I am clearly no expert,

as otherwise I wouldn’t have got myself into this situation.

Hence the cry for help.

I’m not sure what you’re saying I’ve missed DX?

 

Sorry, I haven’t completed the CPR yet as stated in the above post.

I write that in error, I completed the AOS back in December

Edited January 12, 2019 by dx100uk
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[Bekki0405]

Thank you, this is really helpful. I’ll send a defence to the claim online tonight. I’ve printed the CPR 31:14 and it’s ready to go, recorded delivery on Monday morning. I guess I just wait for their move after this.

I will update this thread when I have a reply.

[Bekki0405]

Great, thank you. I’ve been reading them, but didn’t realise about subscribing to make it easier to keep up to date.

Right, one debt on the move. I’ll address another batch tomorrow via CAG

[Bekki0405]

Ive noticed on some forums that people ask for help, sometimes urgently (like myself) and get great advice, which presumably they follow.

However, there is frequently no update, and so to readers coming in later and reading posts to assist themselves in a similar situation, they often can’t gauge whether to follow the advice, as the time thread dries up.

 

In order that my post last week doesn’t be follow that cycle, here is my current status.

 

I diligently followed the advice of DX and Bankfodder,

today I have received a letter from Shulmans and one from the Court.

 

The letter from the court states that the claimant may want to resolve any Dispute informally.

If it can’t be, the claimant will inform the court how it wishes to proceed.

 

The letter from Shulmans (the solicitors) states that their clients (Southern Water) wish to deal with this matter themselves, my, th year have therefore handed the matter over to them, and they have enclosed a Notice of Change.

 

Of course I phoned southern Water, spoke to a very helpful lady, who explained that she had it in her inbox to deal with it.

 

I was correct,

that quite a lot of the debt was SB and she would adjust the total outstanding,

take off as much as she was able to,

and email me the figure later today, and discuss a payment plan.

 

I believe the court issue is still there floating around, but it’s currently suspended (metaphorically speaking) whilst the figure is calculated.

I’m not entirely sure if the new figure will be subject to court proceedings or whether they would need to start again with a new claim form.

However, obviously I will be paying this before that even happens.

 

I know this is not the end of the story, and I’ve always accepted I will owe some, but I feel thankful to this site for helping me see the wood for the trees, and reduce my debt here, enabling me to use my money to pay off more debt elsewhere.

 

I will of course continue to update this thread as things happen, but I’ve already made a list of debt, paid off half of the smaller debts, and am using the money saved from here to up the monthly figures on the others (and make a donation to this site)

Edited January 17, 2019 by dx100uk
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[Bekki0405]

received std court response to my defence filing

 

It would appear that it’s out of my hands and in the claimants control as to what happens next. 

The debts we paid were outstanding amounts on current bills.

I have a list of actual debts which I’ll post on a debt sub forum.

[Bekki0405]

Well I make a commitment then to put into the pot when I’m able to stand up and say I’m debt free. This site has been a huge help and in a non judgemental way. I am going to need more advice, so I’m not going anywhere

 

Further to my update, Southern Water have replied with their position.

They have deducted all the interest charges, along with £1128.36 of charges which are statute barred as they are out of time.

They state that the outstanding charges including court fees are £3431.26.

 

They attach an admission form if I agree to this sum.

It is noted that this sum is still subject to court action, which I expected, and if I agree to this figure, and complete the admission form, they can agree a payment plan with me.

Of course this will mean a ccj against our names, which I was hoping to avoid

 

Xxxx ,

 

I am writing further to our telephone conversation earlier today concerning the County Court Claim which has been issued against you in respect of unpaid water services charges.

 

As you are aware the claim issued relates to charges for water services charges covering the period 11th July 2007 to 9th July 2008.

 

I would firstly confirm that I have removed the charges in the sum of £1,128.36 which covered the period 11th July 2007 to 2nd July 2008 as these charges are over 6 years old.

 

This has reduced the amount claimed to £3,431.26 and covers the period 11th January 2013 to 9th January 2013.

(There was no sum claimed covering the period 10th July 2008 to 10th January 2013)

I have not included interest and shall cancel this from the claim.

 

As such, the total sum now subject to the County Court Claim is £3,696.26 including costs and fees as shown on the claim form.

 

Should you now agree this sum, I would invite you to file a full admission, detailing your income & expenditure together with your offer of repayment.

 

If you offer of re-payment is accepted, a County Court Judgment shall be registered against you in the terms of your offer.

I have attached a copy of a full admission for completion.

 

In addition, upon receipt of your full admission, should you decide to file one, I can arrange for a member of our debt advice team to review your account and consider you for any schemes and tariffs that may be available.

 

Please be aware that any offer of repayment made on a full admission will only be in relation to the balance subject to Court action and not your future charges.

Our debt advice team will be able to look into repayments against your ongoing charges on reviewing your account.

 

Should you not agree to this revised balance, the matter shall continue to a Small Claims Hearing.

 

I trust this this is of assistance.

Should you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact me either by reply to this email or by phone on xxxx

 

Any suggestions where to go from here.

I’m attaching the text below so you can see the exact wording (redacted where personal info exists)

[Bekki0405]

The cost of the claim are still being charged, but that’s a god point. I was surprised they didn’t send a breakdown on the costs. I don’t mean the bills, but how they got to the final

Figure. I mean it could be ‘think of a number between 1-4000’ and I wouldn’t know!

Is a tomlin a payment plan that you cannot default on?

 

We have a small amount of cash from my husband being made redundant. We are unsure how to distribute this amongst the debts, but could potentially use some to make a one off payment and then pay the rest off by £50 a month, if that would help stops ccj? It’s not enough to pay it all off

[Bekki0405]

Up to £1500 if needed.

[Bekki0405]

Hmm could I apply to have it set aside?

[Bekki0405]

The above advice seems a sensible approach.

my credit file is not atrocious, on the south side of acceptable.

 

I’ve been working hard over the last year to improve my credit file, and have reduced debts gradually but effectively.

Husbands credit however is a different matter.

 

The ccj just feels such a backward step and will put a stain on our credit worthiness as a couple.

I will say as a couple, we have a strict agreement that we get no credit whatsoever unless it is a well thought out and mutually agreeable decision.

 

My husband will be looking for alternative accommodation if he doesn’t abide by this.

That is not something I write flippantly!

 

I was hoping that by avoiding a ccj we would already be some way along the repair of our financial situation.

 

I would like to review our mortgage payments and look for a better deal in the future, and a ccj will put a stop to that for 6 years.

 

If I put an offer of negotiating with them forward, I assume an email would be best?

[Bekki0405]

One thing I meant to bring up, the litigation emails dates are all over the place. She states she has removed 11th July 2007 to 2nd July 2008, however it’s 2019, at the very least 2018 when the claim was submitted? What reason for not removing up until 2012?

 

I’m worried I’m agreeing to an amount, if I try to negotiate the Tomlin, that is still incorrect.

Her dates at the start are also out, but I’m accepted that as a typo. The figures are more of a concern

[Bekki0405]

Good point dx, I was almost tempted to admit the claim prior to looking for help.

After all, if SW say I owe it then I must.

 

It’s been an education learning about county court claims and SB’s, not one I relish becoming more savvy about, but nonetheless a very important lesson on questioning everything and really thinking about whether it’s true.

 

I’m going to dig some more, I’m not happy to pay an amount that I don’t have a breakdown for.

Made more complicated by a litany if errors.

 

I’m in no way looking to get out of the debt, but if I can settle this for the smallest amount possible, theres more money to clear other outstanding debts

Edited January 18, 2019 by dx100uk
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[Bekki0405]

I’ve written an email the SW litigation which I attach.

Should I ask for the breakdown, pointing out the errors to her in the first instance.

And then later, separately make an offer if and when the figures have been sent and I agree that the charges are correct.

 

I’m a little anxious at how long I/they have.

The claim was filed on 12/1 and received on 14/1.

Does that give them Until 10/2 to decide what to do.

 

Can they go straight back to court and get a judgement against me?

Or do they have to show that they’ve exhausted all avenues.

 

The court seem to be saying that SW will try to sort it informally,

but SW are saying that it will go to a ccj if I admit and if I continue to defend it will go to small claims.

 

I really want to sort this amicably, but I feel there’s a lot of contradictory information flying about

 

Also

 

This is my draft email to send back to SW

 

Thank you for your email on the 14th January and your proposal for a resolution of this matter.

 

I appreciate that you are taking a very decent and ethical approach to this matter.

 

As part of our attempt to bring our debts under control, we need to take care not to cause any further damage to our credit file. I'm sure that you understand that a county court judgement as suggested by you would be registered against our credit file and cause further damage for the next six years.

 

My problem is, as you can imagine, that my husband and I have a substantial number of debts and we are trying to take control of our finances. Part of our plan is shortly to review our mortgage and hopefully try to negotiate a different mortgage product which will further reduce our outgoings and help us to service our existing debts – and this includes the debt to Southern Water.

 

I did not receive the Pre Action Protocol from Southern Water and as a result, had no opportunity to make an offer to pay prior to the claim form arriving from the court. Also, the claim form sets out the particulars of the case, however there is no breakdown of how the particulars are made up, and the dates are inconsistent with my time at the property. In addition to this, there is a large part of the claim with is statute barred, which you have yourself agreed with. However your email does not address the fact that I have not received a breakdown of the amount being claimed, and in fact the dates are extremely confusing, and you are stating that you have removed the charges until 2nd July 2008, should it not be January 2013? I have requested a CPR 31:14 from Shulmans and have yet to receive the requested information.

I would like a complete breakdown of the charges being claimed, so I can consider my position in an informed way. I am currently unable to do so, as the amount requested on the email, has been changed from the original court claim, with no documentation to back up how the new amount has been calculated.

 

—————————————————————————————————————————————

 

I would like to propose that instead of admitting your amended claim as suggested by you, that we enter into a Tomlin agreement under which we would undertake to make agreed monthly payments to clear the arrears and with liberty to you to apply for a judgement in the event that we breach the agreement.

 

We have a sum of money which we intended to distribute to various creditors but if you would agree to the above suggestion and help us to avoid a CCJ, then as a sign of good faith we would be prepared to make an immediate lump sum payment to you of £750 which I'm sure you would agree would produce a very substantial reduction of the debt and also bring forward the date by which our account was cleared.

 

I should point out that the County Court claim which issued against us came as a complete surprise because we have not received any warnings from you and you have not implemented the pre-action protocol which requires you to give us at least 30 days notice of an impending debt action.

 

I think that in view of the fact that the claim which you have issued against us includes a figure for a a period when we did not occupy the property and also a substantial figure which we all agreed is statute barred, if you felt that you would not be prepared to let us settle this matter by means of a Tomlin order, that we would probably have to defend the claim and asked for a strike out on the issue of the failure to follow the pre-action protocol and also point out to the judge the errors in your claim.

 

Of course I appreciate that in the event we did not succeed we would be saddled with an additional hearing fee – but I think that that is a risk that we may be prepared to take.

 

As I say, I appreciate your very decent approach on this and also your offer to correspond with your debt team in order to find a manageable solution. Most creditor companies would not be nearly so helpful. If it was only a matter of sums outstanding to Southern Water we would probably accept your suggestion without question. However, we have a larger problem to deal with and if we are not careful then all creditors – including Southern Water – might find themselves in difficulty being paid at all.

Edited January 18, 2019 by dx100uk
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[Bekki0405]

Dear xxxx

Following my phonecall with you on the 14th January and subsequent email from you, I would like to clarify that I still require all the water bills that the claim is relevant to.

 

I did not receive the Pre Action Protocol from Southern Water and as a result, had no opportunity inspect the charges prior to the claim form arriving from the court.

 

Also, the court claim form sets out the particulars of the case, however there is no breakdown of how the particulars are made up, and the dates are inconsistent with my time at the property. In addition to this, there is a large part of the claim with is statute barred which you have yourself agreed with, although you have not detailed how you calculated the reduction.

I have requested a CPR 31:14 from Shulmans and have yet to receive the requested information.

 

OR

 

Dear xxxx

Please send me a copy of all water bills relevant to the county court claim form sent to me reference …..

 

I’m thinking the second approach as the first alerts them to their errors early in the process.

[Bekki0405]

got it!!

[Bekki0405]

Looking for some extra advice.

 

I’ve received the copy bills, and they are all in order, and the total outstanding, corresponds with the updated total that Southern Water came back with after affording that some of the debt was statute barred.

 

I’ve also received from the court, a letter which says that my case is suitable for fast track to the small claims court,with a mediation form and details of how to request mediation with the company for free.

 

Does anyone have experience of this?

I’m inclined to fill the form off a send it to the court asking for mediation to help agree a payment plan.

Is that what the mediation can help with?

 

and what happens with the county court claim, as I assume the small claims process is different?

Edited February 7, 2019 by dx100uk
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