CWD - PAP Letter re old UAE debt now claim form

[AndyOrch]

" They also may be able to take action using the UK courts. To do this they would usually need to get a court judgement (the equivalent of the CCJ/decree) in UAE first, then start a second claim in the UK and get a judgement before they can enforce the debt."

 

We have already covered that way back in this thread...that was always my understanding...but the courts do not seem to agree now

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

What about the District Judge ...was it at Liverpool County Court ?   Shes is going to be trying the claim.

 

Seriously though...if you could put down a brief explanation as to why this agreement ended and your reasons for leaving and any disputes/penalties/fees.....lets see if we can draft a holding defence that will put the claimant to inconvenience and see if they know UAE Law

[AndyOrch]

31 minutes ago, SquaddyP said:

I’ve contacted a debt/money agency who will ring me back. 

 

Feedback has been for managing debt only, not defending a claim.  Was advised to contact university professors in law to see if they can advise. 

 

As they use English law, We have all the same rights as if the debt was in this country, including any type of repayment plan.  Also was advised if they want to use English law, then we can, so for example if it’s older than 6 years old, then by English Law is statute barred.  They Can’t just chose the best parts of each countries law, it has to be all or nothing. 

 

 

 

 

Quite Squaddy...you could even apply for a Time Order. ? Ill check

[AndyOrch]

No you cant...the agreement must be regulated by the CCA1974

 

" My judge said this was being tried under UAE law and not UK law ? "

 

Really cant see how that is possible 

[AndyOrch]

The DIFC Courts

 

A defendant who makes an admission under Rules 15.14, 15.18 or 15.24 can make a request for time to pay (Rule 15.33), which must be served or filed with his admission (Rule 15.35). The defendant should complete the statement of means contained in the admission form or otherwise give details of his means in writing (Rule 15.36).

 

 

The contents of the defence

The defendant must give an address for service if he has not filed an acknowledgement of service under Part 11 (Rule 17.23). Where the defendant is an individual and the claim form does not contain an address for the defendant or contains an incorrect address, the defendant must provide his address in the defence (Rule 17.24).

In the defence, the defendant must state:

• Which of the allegations in the particulars of claim he denies.
• Which allegations he is unable to admit or deny but which he requires the claimant to prove.
• Which allegations he admits (Rule 17.26).

Where the defendant denies an allegation:

• He must state his reasons for doing so.

   

  • If he intends to put forward a different version of events from that given by the claimant, he must state his own version (Rule 17.27).

  A defendant who fails to deal with an allegation but sets out in his defence the nature of his case in relation to the issue to which the allegation is relevant is taken to require that allegation to be proved (Rule 17.28).

  Where a claim includes a money claim, unless the defendant expressly admits the allegation, the allegation relating to the amount of money needs to be proved (Rule 17.29).

   

  Subject to Rules 17.28 and 17.29, a defendant who fails to deal with an allegation is taken to admit that allegation (Rule 17.30).

  If the defendant is defending in a representative capacity, he must state what that capacity is (Rule 17.31).

  The defendant must give details of the expiry of any relevant limitation period relied on (Rule 17.32).

   

  Where a defendant contends that he is entitled to money from the claimant and relies on this as a defence to the whole or part of the claim, the contention may be included in the defence and set off against the claim, whether or not it is also a counterclaim (Rule 17.33).

   

  https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/3-621-7134?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true&comp=pluk&bhcp=1

   

  https://www.difccourts.ae/court-rules/

[AndyOrch]

The following may be useful...

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1982/27/contents

 

Permission required to serve out of jurisdiction

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part06#6.36

 

[AndyOrch]

23 hours ago, Hornsey62 said:

Dx I just did what was advised. .no jurisdiction but they won..so what now?

 

I understand you have valuable knowledge on dealing with debt here but I think we are out of our depth and need to look in to it more before any advice given.  I'm now in a situation where no one can advice me what to do so where do I go from here? 

 

 

No advice to offer at the moment you said you had 21 days to prepare a defence.....have you made a start as requested last week in preparing points that can be used in your defence...what about the initial debt ....any disputes...reasons for leaving it behind etc etc.

Andy

[AndyOrch]

And I stand by all that advice as that is the correct procedure to contest the courts jurisdiction to hear and deal with the claim.You had to have a hearing because the claimants challenged your application.....that has never happened before on this forum... normally would not require a hearing....they simply drop the claim.

 

You do not submit evidence or a defence in an application to contest the courts jurisdiction as by doing so you are submitting to the courts jurisdiction and accepting that the court does have jurisdiction.That is why the court has now ordered you submit a defence because the question of Jurisdiction has been accepted by the court.It does not mean that you have submitted to the courts jurisdiction.

 

See CPR 11.

(9) If a defendant makes an application under this rule, he must file and serve his written evidence in support with the application notice, but he need not before the hearing of the application file –

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part11

 

I did advise you to raise points such as had the claimant requested permission to serve out of jurisdiction. The English Court should not exercise its jurisdiction if there is a more appropriate forum (known as the doctrine of "forum non conveniens") and Another gateway is where the dispute relates to a contract which is governed by English law or contains a term conferring jurisdiction on the English Courts to determine any claim in respect of the contract.

 

Did the agreement refer to Exclusive or None exclusive jurisdiction clauses limit disputes to the courts of one jurisdiction.

 

It is noted that yours refers at 11.13

 

" These terms and conditions are governed by the laws of the Emirate of Dubai and the UAE.You and we submit to the none exclusive jurisdiction of the civil courts of the UAE.Such submission shall not restrict our rights to bring in any other jurisdiction.

 

Further reading.....

 

http://disputeresolutionblog.practicallaw.com/taking-steps-without-submitting-to-the-jurisdiction-how-far-can-you-go/

https://www.ashurst.com/en/news-and-insights/legal-updates/jurisdiction-clauses/

http://www.shlegal.com/insights/when-will-the-english-courts-have-jurisdiction-over-a-dispute

https://www.latham.london/2019/01/english-court-of-appeal-clarifies-test-for-determining-jurisdictional-challenges/

[AndyOrch]

Posts moved to own thread

[AndyOrch]

Interesting article...wonder which Solicitors they spoke to...

 

https://www.buddyloans.com/blog/returning-to-the-uk-with-debts-outside-the-uk/

[AndyOrch]

Start to prepare the basis of a defence Hornsey62 as I have advised on your own thread.

 

We cant use the normal technicality defence which puts them to strict proof as we dont know if this is being tried under UK law or UAD Law.

I would assume the full protection of UK laws should apply given that it is being tried in an English Court and we should utilise them.

 

But we also must treat this as an unregulated loan for all intents and purposes 

[AndyOrch]

Well UK unregulated loans are legislated through the FCA I understand....as for unregulated UAE agreements 

[AndyOrch]

We have a starting point and very strong 

 

I did advise you to raise points such as had the claimant requested permission to serve out of jurisdiction. The English Court should not exercise its jurisdiction if there is a more appropriate forum (known as the doctrine of "forum non conveniens") and Another gateway is where the dispute relates to a contract which is governed by English law or contains a term conferring jurisdiction on the English Courts to determine any claim in respect of the contract.

 

Im relying on you to provide a little history to any disputes unfair charges and interest etc etc

[AndyOrch]

Have read of 57-63

 

http://repository.essex.ac.uk/15979/1/Final Draft_Thesis.pdf

[AndyOrch]

On 17/04/2019 at 19:37, Hornsey62 said:

Once I found cag Dx I didn't feel alone because believed everything I read on here. That UAE cases will not be heard here.  Wrong.

There's always a first time and now CAG are aware .

 

Contesting jurisdiction has cost me £2300 I don't have and you say I've lost nothing!  It's ok for people advising on here because they've nothing to lose. 

That was the correct process in challenging the claim and we are surprised as much as you and if you hadn't you would have had judgment against you by now,  still we learn and and adapt our advice and pool our ideas..providing posters share their information with others

 

I did everything I was told..I asked numerous times if I would have to speak in court and was told everytime no..it's between the judge and CWD but as soon as I got into court I was asked what my argument was? I wasn't prepared. ..because cag told me i didn't need to be!

And normally you shouldn't have been asked...how can a Litigant in person advise an experienced District Judge the arguments against Jurisdiction ? Could she not decide herself if the court was right to hear the claim ?

 

So before blaming us defendants take a look at yourselves and ask what could we have done better? We've let these people down..let's improve our knowledge before giving advice on this subject we know nothing about. No what do you do? You blame us! 

So why didnt  you share instead of posting to other same UAE threads and sitting back waiting for the forum to do all the work ? This is new territory to CAG and we have never in all the time I have been a member had to submit a defence on a foreign agreement.

 

For your information Dx my defence went in 2 days ago..I didn't spend 21 days running around other people's threads moaning..have never done that.

Why not post a copy here for opinion and to help the 2 other posters involved in the same type of claim ?

 

Quote

 

I did my defence myself because I knew no one on here knew what to do and if I lose I lose..nowhere to get any advice.

See above

 

You'd do better acquainting yourself with the law of the UAE instead of picking arguments with people who are here because they're areally desperate for advise.

Its hard enough keeping up with UK Law and given that yours and the other two claims are the first we have ever had in 13 years.We offer our advice free as volunteers and achieve a remarkable success rate for posters unable to afford legal representation or the knowledge to understand the legal process...obviously you have never bothered to view the Legal Success Forum.Of course you did have the option to consult professional legal advice on foreign claims at a cost to yourself which would have easily in been in access of the claimed amount and costs so far.

 

Quote

 

Not one person on here who told me don't worry they will not be allowed to hear this case has ever come back to me or squaddy  and I see concerned expat was never advised not to contest jurisdiction even though two cases had been lost the week before. 

I did its on his thread and explained  the two options

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

On 17/04/2019 at 01:01, Hornsey62 said:

No one on here has been sent anything in Arabic everything we received you received. ..none of us ever got sight of the T&Cs. .

you know that.

ConcernedExpat09 has and we have copies of them.

 

It's all been sent from county courts in this country and no one knew  how to to defend.

You mislead us and has cost us money we can't afford. 

You removed all your uploads as the thread progressed and as for costing you see above my last post.....even if you had not done anything you would still now have a CCJ which you cant afford to pay....I suppose if Jurisdiction had been denied you would be singing our praises ?

 

You told us they could do nothing.

.to any of us ..wrong.

they can.

We relied on cag..wrong. .and now we are speaking out

Probably be banned now..

Not at all why would you be banned ? Speaking out is what you could have done more of and engaged with your thread.

 

Where's Andy now with all of he's knowledge?  No where. 

Im here Hornsey just taken a few days off to recharge my batteries and take a break from advising on 100s of threads...

 

I'm beginning to wonder what this forum is all about.

The ethos of the forum is to share information and pool advice on how best to deal with legal matters that posters cant afford or wont seek from Legal Representation because of the extravagant costs and unfair judicial system.It works very well if posters engage with their threads regularly and dont sit back to be spoon fed.

 

Banning people for having more knowledge? ?

Only one person banned connected to the threads in question and that was for breaking forum rules and being rude to SIte Team...its quite clearly explained in the forum rules what our members must abide by.

 

On 17/04/2019 at 19:37, Hornsey62 said:

 

 

 

[AndyOrch]

See we are back to secret squirrel again....  Can't blame CAG for losing if we dont even know what you submitted.....must have been good though if the Judge didn't even bother to read it.

[AndyOrch]

All threads involving a court claim are moved to the FLI Forum irrespective if connected to loans credit cards lending etc...so we have them all in one forum.

And as I stated on your forum from the day we knew jurisdiction had failed...we cant offer an opinion on a defence because its never happened before as once jurisdiction is challenged they have always discontinued or had the claim struck out by the court. 

[AndyOrch]

Jurisdiction can be challenged ...it wouldn't have it on the claim form as option if it couldn't and there wouldn't be a full section in the Civil Procedure Rules on how to process it if it cannot be challenged........you was the first we know of that lost on jurisdiction on this forum..  

[AndyOrch]

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/standard-directions/general/disclosure-of-documents

 

As a general rule, depending on the size of your dispute, you will likely be ordered to either:

 

Disclose documents you intend to rely on no later than 14 days before the hearing (small claims matters, up to £10,000);

Disclose documents on the standard basis – being documents which support your case, adversely affect your case or support the other sides case (fast track matters, £10,000 - £25,000)

Disclose documents confined to specific matters identified by the court, and documents within those matters which support your case, adversely affect your case or support the other sides case (multi track matters, over £25,000 or too complicated for fast track)

[AndyOrch]

Yes they did in your case which is something quite new....which we covered in great length on your thread......I have done plenty of disputed jurisdictions and never lost one but they didn't have  non exclusive jurisdiction clause in their agreements.

 

How about posting your defence and what the outcome was of your case Hornsey...did they get judgment ?  How do they intend to execute it ? 

 

What was the final costs ?

[AndyOrch]

It converts a forthwith to monthly payment which is set to suit your finances...so if £5 a month so be it...rubber stamped by the court....if you try to negotiate direct ...which it sounds thats what your doing.....they can alter it whenever they feel like it and if you dont comply can execute the judgment...but not if you submit an N245 as advised.

 

But hey what do we know ? 

[AndyOrch]

Quote

I was not given correct information here and there is a legal reason to pay this debt.

 

  Most of the actions you took were off your own back and opposite to the advice given here on the limited information you provided..in between long periods with no updates.

 

Quote

The equity is minimal here plus it’s in both names and I actually don’t own my equity either. 

 

Again... sparse information posted that does not make sense...why do you not own the equity ?

 

Quote

re there any link to how to respond the N85?

 

Whats an N85. ?..Im sure that a Third Party Debt Order Form...do you mean N86 ?

[AndyOrch]

2 hours ago, Hornsey62 said:

Andy they made me bankrupt after the charging order.

 

You never know what their next move will be, they are absolutely disgraceful.

 

Now how did that come about...did they not get their charging order ?  Because you cant issue a stat demand if the debt is already secured.