Son's unpaid magistrate's court fine ; bailiff at door & inventory collected

[Bailiff Advice]

You have said that this debt is for an unpaid PCN and on the other hand, you state that you made payment to the Magistrates Court and had received a Notice of Fine/Collection Order and another document (presumably a Further Steps Notice) on 26th February. Clearly, the debt is for a magistrate court fine.

 

The last letter that you received from the court would almost certainly have been the Further Steps Notice and if you read that document carefully it tells you that unless payment is made within 10 working days that a warrant of control would be issued. Did you contact the court on receipt of this notice?

 

You should have received from Marston Group a statutory document called a Notice of Enforcement. This should have arrived with you sometime around the middle to end of March 2016. A compliance fee of £75 would have been added to the debt at this stage.

 

The enforcement agent this morning handed you a letter dated 18th April. I suspect that this letter was not entitled Notice of Enforcement and instead, was a notice to advise that a visit had taken place.

 

Once a warrant is issued, all payments made to the court are sent straight to the enforcement company. It should take about a week to 10 days for Marston Group to receive your online payment of £150.

[Bailiff Advice]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the document that the enforcement agent said was handed to you (or hand delivered) on the 18th April is not a statutory document at all. It is merely used to inform the household that a visit had taken place. The only statutory notice would have been the one sent by Marston Group around mid March entitled Notice of Enforcement.

 

I can appreciate that you are adamant that you had not received the Notice of Enforcement but given that you had received the Further Steps Notice dated 26th February you should have expected a letter from an enforcement company shortly thereafter.

 

The enforcement agent appears to be saying that a previous visit was also made on 18th April (when a 'removal notice' was left). Another visit was also made today. Accordingly, it would seem that the enforcement fees of £310 is due (£75 Compliance fee and £235 enforcement fee).

 

However....as long as you have a receipt for the online payment of £150, I would NOT make a duplicate payment for this sum. Marston Group will receive this payment from the court in the next week to 10 days.

[Bailiff Advice]

my son. Hardly speak, talk or stay in evening. Had enough and happily see his bike go

 

Try not to upset yourself. This morning and again yesterday I received enquiries from parents about significant court fines that their son's had received for travelling on a train without paying. Youngsters these days so not seem that fussed about court fines. Such a shame.

[Bailiff Advice]

Collectica Ltd is a separate company. However, the firm is owned by Marston Group. I am confused though at the amount due £150 plus £75 (£225)

[Bailiff Advice]

There are a number of points here and the first one is that any legal action must be brought by your son.....and not you. He is the debtor....you are not.

 

The claim is doomed for failure. The enforcement company (in this case Collectica ltd) is owned by Marston Holdings. That company are a £100 million turnover company and like all other enforcement businesses, they would defend a claim such as this and in doing so, would use Barristers etc.

 

All that your son could technically claim for is the cost of a replacement key.

 

Another point and one that is important is that if your son were to issue a claim, he would need to prove to the court what steps that he has taken to mitigate his losses. In other words, he would be required to outline what steps that he has taken to limit the value of the claim. If he has left his vehicle outside of your home for one year purely because he hasn't got a key, then the court would expect him to have paid £150 for a replacement long ago.

 

I'm sorry to say but the claim is a hopeless one.

[Bailiff Advice]

But do remember that you need to ensure that it is your son who needs to be making enquiries regarding the return of the key.

[Bailiff Advice]

Now I'm getting really worried.

 

Marston could drag this forever until we give up until which time value of bike could go even lower.

 

Not sure but last time I replaced my car key it was £430.

 

We're trying to sell but almost all buyers insisting a spare key. With 1 key, we're getting £500 less than asking.

 

I have been advising you on this subject for the past year and please do pay attention to the advice that I gave you a few days ago (link below).

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?463677-magistrate-s-court-fine-bailiff-at-door-amp-inventory-collected&p=5060550&viewfull=1#post5060550

 

There is something else as well that I have only just picked up on:

 

A few days ago, you were looking at claiming £1,000 for 'depreciation' of the bike and another £500 for 'replacement' key. It was only today when reading your above post, that I realise that it was the spare key that the enforcement agent seized and that your son still has another key. I genuinely hadn't noticed this before !!!

 

One other final point, this entire situation arose not because your son failed to pay a court fine but because when notified that a warrant had been issued and passed to an enforcement agent to enforce, payment was made to the court instead of the enforcement company. It was that mistake that led to the visit taking place.

 

PS: When I purchased my car a year ago, it only came with one key. The car was no cheaper because it didn't have a spare key.

[Bailiff Advice]

Thank you for updating the forum. I will pop back later this evening to reply to your post.

[Bailiff Advice]

Thank you for updating the forum with the response.

 

I should imagine that you are disappointed at the reply but frankly, the reply is what I expected.

 

It depends what you wish to do now. My personal opinion, is that you should put this matter 'to bed' and move on. As you have said, the bike key that was taken was the spare key and as such, would not have stopped your son selling his bike and neither would it have led to a lesser sale price being achieved.

[Bailiff Advice]

Received reply from collectica.

 

When you first posted your query (approx 18 months ago) you did say that the spare key had not been included on the Inventory.

 

Given the response from Collectica, you would face an uphill struggle trying to argue that the key had been taken.

[Bailiff Advice]

Absence of spare key does affect sale of vehicle. Problem now is probably the key that bailiff took away is the ONLY key left as can't find the one at home. Does this changes the situation now?

 

?? I re read my 1st post and I did wrote that the key was taken by agent. I had a quick chat with Union's legal rep and he actually got surprised by the Marston's reply despite the signed paperwork. They're willing to take the case but first want to view all the documents.

 

In your post from 18 months ago, you did indeed state that the enforcement agent took the spare key...however, you also confirmed that the key did not feature on the Inventory.

 

You have stated as well that your Union's legal representative has expressed an interest in taking this case on. The only person that would be permitted to pursue this matter would be the debtor (in this case, your son).

[Bailiff Advice]

Absence of spare key does affect sale of vehicle. Problem now is probably the key that bailiff took away is the ONLY key left as can't find the one at home. Does this changes the situation now?

 

A year and a half ago (May 2016), you posted about a bailiff visit for your son. You stated that a spare key to your sons’s motorbike had been taken. This was despite the fact that the Inventory left did not state a ‘spare key’ had been taken.

 

A few weeks ago, you returned to the forum and stated that in September 2016, another bailiff visit had taken place and that your wife had paid a debt in full (whether this was the same debt from May 2016 or not, we don't know. Suffice to say, that account was closed.

 

When you returned back to the forum a couple of weeks ago, you wanted advice on whether you had grounds to make a court claim in respect of the suspected removal of the 'spare key' 18 months earlier. The amount of the County Court Small Claims action was as follows:

 

a) Bailiff not following correct procedure ( inventory collected should've returned once paid) - £3000

b) Depreciation of vehicle (30% in a year) - £1000

c) cost of replacement key - £500

d) Tribunal fee - £150

 

Total: £4650

 

Thankfully you heeded the advice given by me and others and realised that you did not have grounds for such a claim. Despite this, you are still adamant that you have grounds for making a claim for £500 for a 'replacement' key. This is despite the following comment from you:

 

Yes it's just a spare key and may or may not devalue the sale price but definitely not the end of the world.

 

One poster questioned whether you had obtained an estimate for a replacement key. You have never responded.

 

You have now had a response back from Collectica and they are stating that a 'spare key' was not taken. The Inventory confirms the same.

 

You are now saying that the bike cannot be sold....because you have mislaid the original key.

[Bailiff Advice]

Starfarer.

 

After entering your premises, the enforcement agent was required to leave a Notice after entry. If your son was not there, the notice should have been left the notice in a conspicuous place for him, pursuant to Paragraph 28(5) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement act 2007.

 

If no notice was left, then the bailiff has breached legislation and was technically not even in a position to take control of goods. That is the first thing that you need to challenge Collectica on and if they cannot confirm that a notice was left, then the account has been handled anything but correctly.

 

Secondly, you need to ask if a notice after taking control of goods was issued and if not, why was an inventory left?

 

This is an account that was paid and closed almost a year and a half ago. The only query is that the debtor's father thinks that at the time of the visit, an enforcement agent seized a spare key to his son's motorbike. The Inventory did not make mention of a 'spare key'.

 

The son left the property and left the bike behind. It had a dead battery etc and the OP (the debtors father wanted to sell it). He had the main key for the bike but claims that he was offered £500 less because there was no spare key.

 

You appear to now want to lead the father into believing that 'the bailiff had breached legislation' because he may have used the wrong form 18 months ago !!!! It would not matter in the slightest whether the forms were correct or not. No goods were actually taken. The registration number of the bike was recorded. That was all. The mother paid the debt in full in September 2016.

[Bailiff Advice]

Hi,yes definitely would like to pursue further.

 

Will upload copy of documents later and don't think any other notices were issued. The key was taken in presence of 2 police officers. I'll try to contact police department to see if they can provide with more details. Think I've still got police ref no somewhere and they definitely should have noted down details of the call.

 

Why have you waited a year and a half to contact the police about the 'replacement key'? Should that not have been the first step that you took?

 

Would you mind answering the following questions?

 

You have now lost the main key so you cannot make a claim for that key. Before losing it, did you obtain an estimate for the cost of a 'replacement' key?

 

You state that you advertised the bike on eBay (I think). What price was offered?

 

Since May 2016 (when the bailiff visited), has the bike been serviced?

 

Is the bike taxed and insured?

 

If you are considering issuing a legal claim against Marston's (who own Collectica), your son would be required to outline what steps he has taken in order to 'mitigate' his losses.

 

For example:

 

Has would be expected to obtain an estimate from a garage for the price of the bike with the main key.....and a price for the bike without a 'spare key'.

 

He would be expected to have obtained an estimate for the cost of a replacement key?

[Bailiff Advice]

On inventory list, the woman only put his bike details.

 

When you post back can you please be very clear with your reply as this thread has been extremely confusing indeed.

 

For example; you can see from this post of yours (post number 17) that you are not stating that the 'spare key' had been listed on the Inventory at all......and yet now, you are saying that it was ??

[Bailiff Advice]

What I don't understand why you keep on insisting that the key was not taken. I've inventory list for goods taken issued by agent and it list 1x bike key reg XX12 XXX.

 

Thought my posts were clear.

 

I'm sorry, but your posts have not been clear. This is the very first time that you have mentioned that the 'spare key' had been listed on the inventory !!! As a reminder....this is what you said in your post number 17 from May 2016.

 

Post 17

 

On inventory list, the woman only put his bike details.

 

The confusion has been yours I'm afraid and has not been helped by the fact that your son has left this matter for such a long time.

[Bailiff Advice]

 

4) First attempt to retrieve the key was made on 27th Feb 2017 via email (record in sent folder). Later also called to hotline.

 

5) On 6th Sep 2017, one of the operator escalates the issue and internal complaint filed.

 

6) On 4th Oct 2017, reply received which is posted above.

 

Why did your son wait a period of 10 months before contacting the enforcement company to request the return of the spare key?

 

It may be that the spare key has a value of just £50-£100, accordingly would you mind responding to the following post that I made earlier this morning?

 

You have now lost the main key so you cannot make a claim for that key. Before losing it, did you obtain an estimate for the cost of a 'replacement' key?

 

You state that you advertised the bike on eBay (I think). What price was offered?

 

How long ago was it that you tried selling the bike?

 

How much is the bike worth?

 

Since May 2016 (when the bailiff visited), has the bike been serviced?

 

Is the bike taxed and insured?