work programme after 2 years

[RebeccaPidgeon]

I still think there will be an emergency general election called before the end of the year.....

 

As far as I know (and I am coming up to the two year mark) they can re-refer you to a different provider in your area, possibly further away just to inconvenience you even more!

It may be possible that, whereas some candidates may be referred back to the Work Programme, others may be referred to MWA and/or required to sign a "Universal Credit Claimant Commitment" (copies have appeared on social media) where candidates are expected to spend x hours a week in working for nothing "preparing for work".

 

http://consent.me.uk/2013/02/15/thirtyfive/

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Reading through these posts kinda makes me think of the magic roundabout.

JCP-WP-JCP-WP-JCP. Now just put it to the music and whoola you got Dougal and some flower eating cow

The analogy is interesting.... except that, with each iteration, the capacity of the DWP and JCP to deliver is reduced because greater responsibility is transferred to the Welfare To Work Sector.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

The Work Programme earliest finishing date is June 2013,anyone claiming they or their friends have finished the work programme already are making false claims.

The only exception is people who have been removed from the Work Programme through sanctions from inattendance or other infringements,in this case the JC's ruling on activity post WP will be entirely different from the participants who complete the full 104 weeks.

Although, in theory, candidates may be with the Work Programme for up to 2 years, they are only required to continue insofar as the Job Seekers Agreement (for example) remains in force...and, if the candidate secures employment, or commences self employment, or starts a full time College/University Programme, and have to sign off, then as soon as they do notify Job Centre Plus, they can forget the Work Programme.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

I must be getting slow - the irony of being rejected from a course called "Overcoming Rejection" has just struck me.

Even worse..... the Welfare To Work Clerk offering the presentation on "Overcoming Rejection" may not even realise that they are offering a public apology for their own failure, and that of their organisation.

 

In historical Japan, wouldn't Personal Honour only be served by the entire army committing sepaku?

[RebeccaPidgeon]

well - that was that!

 

I went to my exit review, along with 20 to 25 other people ,my provider had failed to find work for during the 2 years on the scheme.

 

there where 3 members of staff trying to get us to sign up to yet another scheme, 'to identify our current opportunities, weaknesses and problems, in order to come up with a programme to combat them'. I asked them if that was what the Workfare scheme should have done in the past 2 years, to which they ummed and arred.

 

Hijacking the meeting, I said I was not interested, and if the sales pitch was it, could I leave, as I was under the impression it was an exit review. one of the staff checked with the office, and said that all we had to do for the exit review was put our names, date of birth, phone numbers and email addresses on an individual piece of paper, and we could leave.... I and around 15 others who had brought our own pens did, and left after claiming out travel expenses.

 

So! my exit review was not a review, it was a sales pitch for them to get you to sign up to yet another 12 month 'free' course, funded by the councils, which duplicated what they should have done on the work programme... apart from providing them with job seeker activities.

 

the sales people, and those in the office had no idea what is after the work programme. a couple of other participants said it was a 1 to 1 under a DWP advisor, instead of the 20 second normal signing activity, every 2 weeks, but I wait with baited breath..

 

anything cannot be as bad as the work programme, as even if I start it again, I know more now than I did in the beginning, so can stand up for my rights...

Perhaps you should have signed the Welfare To Work Clerks onto a programme to address their own deficiencies, particularly their evidential failure to develop contact within Employer Networks, and to exploit those contacts to arrange face to face interviews with candidates, rather than indulge the misguided belief that the candidate was at fault.

 

However, I am surprised that any candidate in attendance would indulge any request for personal details (name, date of birth, phone number, email address) given that the drone would already have access to this information.

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[RebeccaPidgeon]

The nightmare begins after the 2 year WP is up.I've been told by someone that it will be a daily visit to DWP office, if they offer you a job and you refuse it you will be given a 3 month sanction.The daily visit to the dWP is compulsory because they said that if you were working you would be going to work daily. Yes and you'd be getting paid monthly and able to afford daily bus fares.

According to a June 3 2013 press release

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-announces-details-of-post-work-programme-support

Work Programme leavers targeted by specialist advisers as part of a tough approach to get them into a job.

 

Work Programme leavers will be targeted by a hit squad of specialist advisers as part of a tough approach to get them into a job.

 

Up to 5 specialist advisers will be based in individual Jobcentres dedicated to working with people not in sustained work after 2 years on the Work Programme.

 

Claimants will be given an end-of-term report from their Work Programme provider assessing what progress they have made and their ongoing needs, to inform their new adviser before facing the toughest Jobcentre regime to help them find work. At their first appointment they will have to agree a binding back-to-work plan laying out what they are required to do.

 

Minister for Employment Mark Hoban said:

 

The Work Programme is getting some of the hardest to help claimants into work despite a tough economic climate.

 

We always knew that there would be some who would require further support after the Work Programme, which is why we’re introducing this intensive and uncompromising regime.

 

We’ll be stepping up the pressure on claimants, who will be expected to attend the Jobcentre more frequently, with rigorous monitoring to ensure they are doing everything they can to find work.

 

Claimants will be expected to be on a training scheme, Mandatory Work Activity placement or intensive work preparation within days of finishing on the Work Programme – losing their benefit if they fail to comply. An extra £30m will be available to pay for extra training and specialist help to prepare them for work, for instance counselling for people dependent on drug and alcohol.

 

Claimants will also have to attend the Jobcentre far more frequently than other jobseekers, with weekly signing on being routine and some people being required to meet their adviser every day.

 

The advisers, who will be focused on working with those returning from the Work Programme, will take a tough approach to monitoring whether claimants are sticking to their plan with anyone failing to participate losing their benefits.

 

The programme comes after Jobcentres involved in a trailblazer found that claimants targeted by an intensive approach were much less likely to stay on benefit.

 

Every Work Programme returner will also be required to register with Universal Jobmatch to aid work search and job matching. This will allow their adviser to check their work search activity online should the claimant give permission.

 

The tough sanctions regime will see anyone failing to comply with mandatory activity lose benefit for 4 weeks for a first failure, with penalties of up to 3 years for serial offenders.

 

The intensive support will last for 6 months, and will be used for all Jobseeker’s Allowance claimants returning from the Work Programme who need more intensive support.

 

 

If you are the only member of your Job Centre who is coming off the Work Programme, then you might be required to attend daily. However, depending on the volume of candidates, I suspect that attendance once every week would be reasonable.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

I finished the work programme last week and attended my first post work programme support advisor interview today. Just created an account on here for anyone curious about what might happen to them.

 

What happens to me now is, I have to go in every week but I only see my adviser once every two weeks, the other week is just a regular signing on. So it alternates every week. Next week I just sign on, the week after I see my adviser, the week after that I sign on the week after that I see my adviser Etc. However it could change and I might need to see him every week as well as signing on later down the line.

 

He never explained to me what I will be doing when I see him every two weeks apart from he would look at my Universal Jobmatch account on one of the two computers in the jobcentre and see what I have applied for. I am one of the first to come back from the work programme so far but he said he is expecting a steady stream of people coming in.

 

I have to use Universal Jobmatch for everything now. The activity history part has a notes section on the right hand side where I have to write down what I have done for that day. If there are no vacancies on that day, I have to write "no suitable vacancies" to show that I have looked. I have to use UJ at least 6 days a week and since they can check whether I am or not, I have no choice really

 

Also about ticking the two boxes letting them see everything, Apparently I forgot to tick them when I created my account and that they need to be ticked (no mention that it wasn't mandatory). Anyway I ticked them (stupidly, If only I had more confidence and was more forceful) so now they can see everything I see on my account.

 

Apparently they aren't interested in anything being written down on paper or having hard copies, everything HAS to be done on Universal Jobamtch. I imagine this is why it said people would have to come in daily because if you didn't have a computer then you would have to use the jobcentre's computer everyday to apply on universal jobmatch.

 

Up next was the talk of courses. I told him I've had two jobs one in admin and one as a shop assistant so he has put me on a computer course, to help me get an admin job. It doesn't start until August as there are no spaces left. I have a grade B in dual award IT so it should be easy.

 

The annoying thing is that their is no set time to see my adviser. I see him in two weeks at 1 o'clock but that could change to the morning the next time I see him or 5 o'clock the time after that so its hard to plan anything on the adviser day.

 

So basically come in every week and use Universal jobmatch to show my evidence. See my adviser every two weeks (why I need to see him, I don't know) At least I have quite a friendly adviser for now, probably until his case load is full and he is stressed to hell.

 

Its going to be a pain having to do this every week for six months, especially when I only used to have to go the work programme once every 6 weeks. Weird I complained about the work programme for two years, now a part of me wishes I was still on it ( God, did I really just say that)

Although a Job Seekers Direction may be issued to candidates who do not use Universal Job Match, in which case the Job Seekers Direction would specify that the candidate would have to i) Create an account, ii) Create a Profile, iii) Upload a CV, iv) Make that CV Searchable, there is currently no legislative enabler which could be used requiring a candidate to either allow DWP Access to any UJ Account. In any event, when candidates create a UJ Account, they agree that the Monster Corporation (operating the system on behalf of the DWP) could distribute all data contained (including your account data) to any party deemed authorised by the Minister of State.

 

Irrespective of the attitude of the jobsworth whom you meet, I suggest that you continue to complete your choice of Job Diary, where you specify the specific jobs that you apply for, ignore Universal Job Match, and address other issues (such as the need to address a Job Seekers Direction) as and when they arise.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Another thing I just remembered was the threat of "dont just look on the Universal Jobmatch and apply for a load of jobs the day before you come in because we can check when you signed in to it."

A very needless threat really. I would still be applying for the jobs, who cares what day it's on, one day isn't going to make a difference

 

forgot to add they do pay bus fare tickets for non signing days with your adviser.

 

It does sound quite easy at the moment but it's a mess, instead of just going in and saying here is what I have applied for, you have all this other crap of them checking when you looked on the UJ website, having to fill the activity history "diary" in everyday as he called it and like I said even if there isn't a job to apply for on a certain day, you still have to write "no suitable vacancies today" onto the activity history notes just so they can see you checked.

 

I don't know if this will happen in every jobcentre though.

You can apply for jobs on any day of the week via any number of Jobs Aggregator Web Sites...and the majority send an email to acknowledge that the application has been made.

 

Sounds if the jobsworth JCP Clerk is power hungry....hence, if you apply for jobs on a daily basis, simply note the jobs that you have applied for on the required date, using whatever documentation you use, and simply provide this at when signing on.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Good luck with your appeal - if, in respect to the Job Seekers Agreement, you were applying for jobs that you were qualified for, capable of doing, and required the skills that were specified by the jobs specified within the Job Seekers Agreement, then it is plausible that the Jobsworth you met when signing simply wanted to increase the number of candidates (s)he sanctioned.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

As far as I am aware they can't make you do unpaid work. Just make sure you stick to your JSA agreement to the last detail.

Currently, JCP may assign candidates to "Mandatory Work Activity"

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/what-we-buy/welfare-to-work-services/provider-guidance/

Customer Group

2.2 Customers who will benefit from participating in MWA are those for whom a work placement would provide the focus and discipline that is a key requirement of finding, securing and retaining employment.

 

2.3 Customers who are referred to MWA may have been out of work for some time; it is possible that some customers may never have worked. The skills, work experience, level of education, and attitude to work will vary greatly within the target group.

 

2.6 Jobcentre Plus personal advisers are able to refer a customer to MWA at any point in their claim. However, the majority of customers are unlikely to be referred until week 13. Customers are unlikely to be referred if they are participating in any other type of provision.

 

2.7 Customers who are part of joint claims to JSA will be eligible for MWA provision. Referrals will be made on an individual basis based on the suitability of the customer. Both members of a joint claim could be referred to MWA if suitable, however this would be treated as two referrals in the same way as if two separate individuals were referred.

 

2.8 MWA is mandatory for all customers who are referred. There is no voluntary access to MWA.

 

:

:

:

However.

3.13 It is not necessary (although it’s desirable wherever possible) for the placement to be in the same sector or type of work as the customer’s job goal, as MWA is designed to help the customer develop disciplines associated with employment. Customers cannot choose their placements.

 

3.15 Placements must be additional to any existing or expected vacancies. You must ensure that employers are not taking advantage of MWA as a source of labour at the expense of employing workers in the open labour market.

 

After the work Programme, candidates may be required to develop a "Universal Credit Agreement", within which "35 hours per week" of job search (or preparing to enter the Labour Market - assuming that candidates are not already adequately prepared) could be achieved through MWA.

Edited June 23, 2013 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Surely this from the MWA own guidelines

 

18. Given the policy intent of MWA, the following claimants must not be

considered for referral to MWA:

 currently working (paid or voluntary)

 undertaking employment related study / training

 taking part in or recently completed* another employment measure

(contracted or non-contracted) aimed at helping them move closer to

the labour market

(* A claimant ‘dropping-out’ of an employment measure prematurely may, or

may not, indicate a lack of focus and discipline on their part; it is for Advisory

Teams to consider the merits of MWA referral on a case by case basis).

 

 

should stop wp returnees from being put on MWA because they have just completed another employment measure ie the work programme.

 

Also if we have a volunteer job we have grounds to argue if MWA is mentioned ?

Absolutely.

 

However, even if you are unenthusiastic about working for an organisation for nothing, you could argue against any MWA on the basis that i) you already possess the behaviours and disciplines needed for work, ii) you already possess the skills, knowledge and experience for whatever jobs that you apply for. Of course, if MWA becomes a tangible proposition, you could justify that, on the basis of being subject to a defacto Contract of Employment, the employer would not only have to pay salary (at least NMW), but would also have to pay Tax and National Insurance - lest they be reported to HMRC in violation of Statute.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

MWA only seems to apply if you on the Work Programme, not if you are solely a Jobcentre customer?

MWA exists entirely separate to the Work Programme... although, from http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pg-part-p.pdf , the contract may be held by the work programme provider

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44681[/ATTACH]

[RebeccaPidgeon]

They tend to claim if you are out of work for a period that you need a recent reference and should do forced labour

I will defer to your insight.... and am sure that a Welfare To Work Clerk will read this assertion from one of their scripts. However, for the life of me, I cannot think of any job that you can do which could either not be filled by either an existing employee, or which could be filled by recruiting someone from the open market, which is contrary to Sections 3.13 and 3.15 from the MWA Provider Guidance http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pg-part-p.pdf

 

And, as for the reference, I am not sure whether any prospective employer would value any reference which was established through coerced working, where the candidate was never paid, and more than likely committed an offence by being an unwary party to Tax Evasion and Tax Fraud.

 

In addressing the issue of Conspiracy to perpetrate Tax Fraud, there may even be a case for HMRC to instigate a Criminal Investigation Party on both the employer and the Welfare To Work outfit coordinating the MWA.

 

HMRC Criminal Investigation Policy

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/prosecutions/crim-inv-policy.htm

Examples of the kind of circumstances in which HMRC will generally consider commencing a criminal, rather than civil investigations are:

 

• In cases of organised criminal gangs attacking the tax system or systematic frauds where losses represents a serious threat to the tax base, including conspiracy;
  

[RebeccaPidgeon]

It's their script and it's part of how all of the drones that I have been stuck with sell work experience

But you are right about employing someone

Most people would succumb to the assertion offered by some Welfare To Work Clerk, particularly when they may suggest that, if they dont agree to the assertion, they may wield their baloneous power and cite the candidate for a Sanction Doubt.

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[RebeccaPidgeon]

I have done that before but I feel like I know more now

I am looking forwards to the lulz of the exit report

Before the Exit Report is produced, what you may want to do is insist on open and full disclosure by the Welfare To Work Company, and insist that they provide a copy of the information which is held on you....this would allow you to i) confirm that the information held pertains to you (and has not been mixed up with someone else), and ii) ensure that the information is accurate and not a slur on your name and character.

 

If the information contained is inaccurate, insist that it be corrected immediately, lest an official complaint be made to your MP and Information Commissioners Office.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

I have my exit review tomorrow, however I also have two job interviews. One this Friday and another tbc. I received the email that I had been shortlisted for interview, they just need to set up a time/date. To tell Ingeus or not to tell???

Given that you, presumably need a new Interview Suit, you have a basis for negotiation....but there is no need to indulge Ingeus by disclosing any employer. However, I am sure that if you are ofered a job, you will agree to divulge the information in due course.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

officially, with 2 weeks to go before your finish date, the DWP will notify your provider that you finish on a specific date. they then have 2 weeks to contact you, and finish you.

 

I attended for a regular appointment on a Tuesday, to be told when I was there, to go away, and come back on the Friday, where I would be part of a mass exit session.

 

at the session, between 20 and 25 leavers where there. 3 members of staff tried to get us to sign up for another 12 month - voluntary - scheme, funded by the local council. on raising the exit review, they knew nothing about it, and was told to get us to put out names, telephone number and email address on a piece of paper. we did, and I left - exit 'review' completed...that was 10 days ago, and I have a meeting with a DWP advisor a week on Thursday.

Strange behaviour.... and asking those in attendance to disclose confidential information which they already possessed.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

quite - we all had our own piece of paper, and I had brought my own pen!...the others had to fight over the 2 or 3 they provided.

 

I assumed that as the record they had of everyone was 2 years old, and details never re-checked in that time, they wanted to confirm telephone and email numbers. I gave them my landline, as my mobile is for personal use only.

Given that, if your personal details had changed, you would have reported this to Job Centre Plus, and the electronic record subsequently made available to any Welfare To Work outfit, the incidence of data collection seems somewhat spurious.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

They had a target of 16% of ESA people on the WP to find sustainable work yet people in ESA have limited capability of work and are supposedbly not have any mandatory work placements. That ESA target seems ridicously high when compared to the JSA target.

All targets seemed perfectly reasonable when the Welfare To Work Sector negotiated the contracts, and were designated as Minimum Performance Targets - and were clearly accepted as being Minimum Performance Targets at the time and easily exceeded, generating £Millions in Bonus Payments.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

The DWP have produced a load of documents spelling out what exactly should happen to the WP returners. Thanks to J Roberts and Freedom of Information these can all be read from here:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/exit_reports_hit_squads_and_the#incoming-403920

I found the PWPS Guidance v3 13 05 29.pdf particularly useful and also the training given to DWP advisers Learning for WSD frontline staff v4 0 2013 05 31.ppt

Be one step ahead of them - do a bit of reading.

 

Basically it is up to the adviser to sort the sheep from the goats. The goats being those with no recent work experience etc. who are consigned to the Mandatory Intervention Regime (MIR). During the trailblazer this was known as "Ongoing Case Management". Basically it's the "hit squad" approach.

I quote:



The sheep get sent back for normal JCP processing.

Be warned though:



Whereas JCP Front Line Advisers may have been promoted into a role, where they may delude themselves with the belief that they can separate "Sheep" from "Goats", the likelihood is that they will not be Professional Careers Advisers and are unlikely to possess any higher level of competence than any other JCP Front Line Adviser.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

How recent is recent work experience? Some online say that they have left work and still expected to do slave labour

Rather than define "Work Experience" consider that all experience contributes to "Professional Experience" - hence, if as part of an interview, you have to give a Presentation, for which some research is required, then even if this is relevant to your job goals, such experience qualifies as "recent".

 

Dont fall into the trap of assuming that the only relevant experience is "Employment Derived Experience".

Edited July 1, 2013 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted

[RebeccaPidgeon]

FUMING!!!

The offer of the job on Friday has now been withdrawn. The Area Manager rang me 10 minutes ago, he said he was very sorry but he interviewed someone else who had House of Fraser experience! To say I'm gobsmacked is an understatement.

Sorry to learn of your experience.... however, if the rationale is to be believed, the personnel clerk and interview panel would know from the outset whether candidates possessed House of Fraser experience, and clearly would have only shortlisted candidates through all stages of the application process according to such criteria.

 

Of course, it is possible that there was a cock up in the organisation, with the vacancy having been advertised, and candidates interviewed, and only for it to be discovered later that the vacancy had never been authorised.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Rebecca I was interviewed by the National Manager of the concessions. He was all apologetic etc, stating I won't be on the job market -all lip service. I think he got carried away and had a rethink. He did say I was over qualified, but he already saw that on Friday. I only want a part time job so I can launch my own company and have a reliable source of income whilst it's in it's early days. Didn't tell him that. Desperate not to go back to the JCP for more punishment!

You continue to do all that you can.... least of all to keep JCP off your back.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Note the heading on page 2, "My job seeker journey", the scripty font on the following page, and the blatant misuse of the apostrophe - All smacks of A4e involvement in drawing it up.... For some reason, barge pole springs to mind.

 

Oh, and I would fail on at least three counts on the "job seeker journey". No updated "about me" profile, no UJ account, and certainly no "voicemail" - As for email, they can always send it to /dev/null

Perhaps... however, other Work Programme Providers (such as Ingeus) also refer to "Customer Journeys"

 

http://ingeusstaff.co.uk/diagram

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]45036[/ATTACH]

[RebeccaPidgeon]

well I was fortunate to find a job last September which unfortunately ended in late march this year due to being in a car accident, before that I was enrolled with pertemps. When the job ended late march I signed back on and was put back with pertemps in June for one month before being refereed to this post work program last week. They told me I had been with my provider for 2 years even though I was working for 7 months and not with my provider (pertemps) in that time they class it from the date you were refereed to the work programme. I don’t understand how I can even be refereed when I haven’t been with my provider for 2 years madness.

No logic.... You could argue that you were only required to attend the Work Programme insofar as the Job Seekers Agreement remains in effect, and when you were offered the job in September 2012, and you signed off, you were no longer with the programme.

 

Of course, the Job Centre may have had a contract with the Work Programme Provider, but that was their business, was part of the Service Level Agreement entered into, but nothing to do with the candidate.

Edited July 10, 2013 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted