Please help - FCC: Notice of Intention to prosecute

[scotty21]

Hello

 

I wonder if anyone can give me some guidance on a letter I received from First Capital Connect?

 

I was on my way into work on the usual packed train and I was standing in the guards area at the end of the train. There were about a dozen other commuters in the same area (as there are everyday I get the train). The train was stopped at Essex Road and we were asked off the train. In the time we were waiting for our details to be recorded another 10-20 people were taken off each train as it came through the station - one train every 4 minutes at that time. I know that you shouldn't stand in there and I know that it is very weak to say this, but people do it everyday on every train that is running, only because it is impossibly full due to the late running of the service.

 

the Notice of intention to Prosecute states it is for - Occupying a part of the train not intended for use by passengers.

 

I have been asked to fill in a form giving my side of the story. Is there anything I can do apart from being polite, apologising and offering to pay their administration costs? I really do not want a criminal record/prison sentence/etc.

 

Any guidance would be really helpful.

 

thank you

Edited January 22, 2013 by dx100uk
changed text in red...from org posted below -dx

[firstclassx]

Hello

 

I wonder if anyone can give me some guidance on a letter I received from First Capital Connect?

 

I was on my way into work on the usual packed train and I was standing in the unused drivers cab at the end of the train. There were about a dozen other commuters in the same area (as there are everyday I get the train). The train was stopped at Essex Road and we were asked off the train. In the time we were waiting for our details to be recorded another 10-20 people were taken off each train as it came through the station - one train every 4 minutes at that time. I know that you shouldn't stand in there and I know that it is very weak to say this, but people do it everyday on every train that is running, only because it is impossibly full due to the late running of the service.

 

the Notice of intention to Prosecute states it is for - Occupying a part of the train not intended for use by passengers.

 

I have been asked to fill in a form giving my side of the story. Is there anything I can do apart from being polite, apologising and offering to pay their administration costs? I really do not want a criminal record/prison sentence/etc.

 

Any guidance would be really helpful.

 

thank you

 

This is a serious problem, which appears to only affect the London commuter areas.

 

Byelaw 10(2) states:

 

No person shall be in or on any train except the parts of it intended for use by that person.

 

If found guilty, a fine, not exceeding £1000 is the maximum sentence. I would say around £300-£500 is likely to be a more realistic estimate of the fine, plus £100 costs. You are not going to prison.

 

You can write an apologetic letter to FCC, and offer a certain amount of money to cover their administrative costs, but this is actually one of the more serious Byelaw offences, and they may prefer to make a few examples.

 

I cannot see how any passenger can justify opening up a drivers cab, which is marked clearly as "no unauthorised access", and congregate in that area, which contains a lot of safety critical systems, which, if used, intentionally or otherwise, could cause serious issues, potentially lethal ones.

 

 

(Byelaw 13(1) is also a possible offence)

Edited January 22, 2013 by dx100uk
hi-lighting org text before user edited it..dx

[Old-CodJA]

I absolutely agree with firstclassx on this one.

 

The potential consequences of an accidental (or otherwise) use of the equipment in a trailing end driver's cab could be very serious indeed.

 

This is such a serious matter that at one time (and it may still be the case) that other fully trained rail staff, were also banned from travelling in the rear cabs of packed trains.

[riverman]

Sorry, where did the OP state he had been in the driver's cab (along with a dozen or so others)?

 

It sounds like they were occupying the corridor area between the cab (which would remain locked) and the passenger accommodation (this service is normally Class 313s). If this is the case then I would agree with the OP that "everybody does it" due to overcrowding and I think that FCC's reaction here is unprecedented.

 

Two points:

1) Are there "keep out" notices displayed here?

2) Did the doors unlock to let you on like all the otehr doors?

 

Stand at Finsbuty Park on a busy weekday morning and you'll see for yourselves.

[*RainbowTears*]

Sorry, where did the OP state he had been in the driver's cab (along with a dozen or so others)?

 

It sounds like they were occupying the corridor area between the cab (which would remain locked) and the passenger accommodation (this service is normally Class 313s). If this is the case then I would agree with the OP that "everybody does it" due to overcrowding and I think that FCC's reaction here is unprecedented.

 

Two points:

1) Are there "keep out" notices displayed here?

2) Did the doors unlock to let you on like all the otehr doors?

 

Stand at Finsbuty Park on a busy weekday morning and you'll see for yourselves.

 

 

Check out 2nd post to see what the OP Scotty21 originally wrote, as he has since edited his post from being caught in the unused Drivers cab to Guards area!

[dx100uk]

noted

 

dx

[riverman]

Check out 2nd post to see what the OP Scotty21 originally wrote, as he has since edited his post from being caught in the unused Drivers cab to Guards area!

 

Aha. Still not sure that's what he actually meant though.

[scotty21]

After reading the first response to my post I edited the language I used. Cab was the wrong word to use in the first instance - where we were standing had no controls, no drivers seat, etc. A better description is indeed the corridor to the cab. The only equipment in there is a ladder and a poster saying how to perform mouth to mouth in 1986.

 

There are keep out signs on the doors (I checked this morning) but you cannot see them if the door is open. I don't think the external doors opened - I entered from the internal door which was fully open.

 

thanks

 

PS I have never come across a website like this before, it is quite heartening to see people helping people for no reason other than its a nice thing to do

[dx100uk]

yep

you'll find us very friendly

 

for one reason or another everyone here cares.

 

we dont put up with .....

 

dx

[Old-CodJA]

After reading the first response to my post I edited the language I used. Cab was the wrong word to use in the first instance - where we were standing had no controls, no drivers seat, etc. A better description is indeed the corridor to the cab. The only equipment in there is a ladder and a poster saying how to perform mouth to mouth in 1986.

 

There are keep out signs on the doors (I checked this morning) but you cannot see them if the door is open. I don't think the external doors opened - I entered from the internal door which was fully open.

 

thanks

 

PS I have never come across a website like this before, it is quite heartening to see people helping people for no reason other than its a nice thing to do

 

 

OK, that clarifies, no worry about access to controls then. However the TOC do have grounds to proceed if they wish, as it is a restricted area on the train and is signed as such.

 

When you say the door was 'fully open', I assume you mean that it was physically open before you and others entered that 'corridoor, or was it simply left unlocked?

Edited January 22, 2013 by Old-CodJA

[scotty21]

OK, that clarifies, no worry about access to controls then. However the TOC do have grounds to proceed if they wish, as it is a restricted area on the train and is signed as such.

 

When you say the door was 'fully open', I assume you mean that it was physically open before you and others entered that 'corridoor, or was it simply left unlocked?

 

Physically open. It is a sliding door that was completely slid open.

[Old-CodJA]

Physically open. It is a sliding door that was completely slid open.

 

Thanks, in that case I would not be offering to pay anything yet

 

I would write a polite apology to FCC, but point out that with the door fully open when you boarded that there is no way that you could have seen the sign, which you have now seen is posted on such doors, as this was fully obscured in the sliding door recess. You can say that had this not been the case you would not have entered that corridoor area.

 

If it were me, I might also suggest that "a sign saying 'No unauthorised person beyond this point' affixed to the headline of the doorway would make clear that the space beyond the door is not an acceptable standing area".

 

I might also state that "I accept that there is a Byelaw covering standing in that space of which I was not previously aware and whilst I understand that ignorance is not an acceptable excuse, I intend to make clear the position to any Court hearing such a charge and will provide photographic evidence regarding the door signs for the information of the Magistrates".

 

In my time as an inspector years ago we would have used a No1 key to ensure such a door was locked, but I can see that there might be a changed rule for on-train staff these days. If the habit is to leave it open, it could be argued that by doing so with the sign obscured, the TOC are encouraging travellers to use this space in order to avoid the crush of overcrowding.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Old-CodJA