natwesttookmymoney - v- NatWest **WON**

[natwesttookmymoney]

I took the first step today on the road to getting my money back. I opened a parachute account, with Lloyds TSB, as it happens (I know, I know, but they're all the same and the girl on reception was really pretty). Besides, Portman Building Society don't have an account that will pay standing orders and DDs, nor do they have a chequebook facility - not at all.

Also took the second step: the DPA SAR letter to NatWest.

 

Here we go!!

[natwesttookmymoney]

Ruminations:

 

This was a liberating day - surprisingly so, in some respects.

 

Got up early, having decided to set the ball rolling. Drove my long-suffering wife (it's our 23rd anniversary on Sunday - your felicitations will be most welcome) to work and went to have a cup of coffee while waiting for the banks to open. A multi-shot black coffee with cream. Woke me up a bit.

 

Banks opened: I went to the Portman Building society first and asked if they had a basic bank acount. No, is the short answer. They can't do standing orders and DDs, so no use to me, then. Looked for Co-Op: none in (market city in SW England). So I went to Lloyds TSB. I've banked with them before - 30 years ago, when I was a student. The moment I stopped being a student, they demanded the entire overdraft back. Immediately. So I switched - to NatWest, as it happens, but that was a long time ago and I've been with Midland, Barclays and NatWest again, since then.

 

Didn't have the right ID so I had to go home and get it. Went back. Explained that my credit rating was likely to be bl**dy awful - CCjs, debts registered - from bad times in the late 1990s, what with negative equity and everything. Lost £ooos on my house. Bad times, bad times. I've been grateful to NatWest for the account, the overdraft, the loan (which was for the charges racked up on my acount, in essence) - everything. She said it would probably be OK: discharged bankrupts are able to have the Cash account. I wouldn't get a cheque book for at least three months but they would do SOs and DDs.

 

So we went through the opening procedure. As it turned out, the ID-ing was fine: they got me from the Electoral Roll and whatever else they use. Then: she said 'Now we do the credit scoring'.

 

Gulp!

 

(she took a deep breath, too!)

 

She pressed the button and....all fine. Nothing registered. I looked at the screen, so did she. I couldn't believe it, and neither could she, quite, because of the harrowing tale I'd told (briefly) about the problems, the CCJs (last one - 2 years ago - was Inland Revenue not agreeing the arrangement I'd put forward. The Court accepted my arrangement but gave judgement, in any case). I couldn't believe it - but then: all the financial issues, the CCJs and so on (except for Inland Revenue) were more than 6 years ago. Apparently, I was the first person for ages she didn't have to call head office about.

 

This is interesting. It was liberating - you can hardly believe the weight I felt fall from my shoulders. I've tried, over the past year or so, to negotiate loans from NatWest, either at my own instigation or by them suggesting and - no go. Don't rack up on the credit scoring.

 

I had thought - no, I'd firmly believed - for so long that I wasn't worth anything, that I was lucky to have a bank that would allow me a cheque/debit card, that i was, indeed, deeply fortunate to be allowed an overdraft and, a few years ago, a loan.

 

The experience of opening the parachute account helped me to realise something. It's a commercial relationship, nothing more (or less). But it was much more than that. Much, much more than that. It's about the relationship I've had with NatWest.

 

Psychiatrists, or maybe psychologists - counsellors and therapists, anyway - have a term for what's been going on between me and NatWest. It's called a co-dependent abusive realationship. The submissive partner - me, in this case - has feelings of worthlessness, and comes to depend on the abusive partner - the bank. The feeling of worthlessness is such that you become grateful for anything, no matter how humiliating it is. They have all the power, you have none, but they are prepared to notice you and pay some attention. They treat you with contempt - which, from their point of view, is no more than you deserve: you're a useless, submissive worm. But you are grateful: after all, no-one else will give you anything, you know that. You know it and believe it, deep in your heart.

 

Wrong.

 

Other people, outsiders, wonder why you stay in such an abusive situtation. They wouldn't, they tell themselves. But you might. You might be gradually ground down, as I was. You might feel, or even believe, that you deserve the abuse. So you accept it, and you effectively beg for any attention you can get, no matter if it reinforces the appalling, negative image you've built up of yourself. You accept the refusals, the dismissals, as just, and no more than you deserve. You embrace each positive rection as a huge favour. But it's all an abuse. As the introduction to the site says, the banks play on our innate feelings of morality, of equity and of justice and fair play. We have been brought up to believe that the banks are pillars of society, that they are above mere trade and commerce, that they are something Other. But they aren't: they're in business, like your mechanic, the market trader, the sandwich shop, Tesco's, anything. They are no more than traders and they actually produce: nothing. Not a damn thing. They add nothing of value, they merely facilitate transactions, nothing more.

 

So, opening the parachute account was a big step. Actually deciding to do it was, in fact, the Big Step. I have decided to be abused no more. Not only have I decided that, I've taken a real, positive and concrete step to do something about it, to do more than just talk about it or fantasise. I have decided to move away from the situation where I've been abused.

 

Yes, I've been lucky in the credit scoring and not everyone will get the same. But the Big Step was the decision to do it. My next tranche of income is going in to the new account. The standing orders and DDs will be transferred shortly before the next lump of income. The NatWest account will be in dispute and probably over the overdraft limit but I no longer worry about it. I'm not worried about the charges they'll levy because I now know they're illegal. I'm looking forward to finding out what my life will be like when I'm no longer putting up with someone looting my account to the tune of £300 or £400 a month.

 

NatWest isn't my children, it isn't my car (which needs to be repaired); it isn't the updated computer I would like to have in order to do my work, it isn't my wife's birthday present and it isn't my mother, who lives over 200 miles away and I haven't been able to get to see for over a year because I couldn't afford it. It isn't the heating oil company, who'd threatened to close my credit account - leaving me without heat this winter - because the DDs had been bounced - and while there was money available. It isn't the local authority, whose DD was bounced yet again this month, because of the charges. NatWest doesn't deserve any respect from me: it hasn't shown me any. It deserves neither consideration or fear from me.

 

I have my parachute account. I don't care that I won't have a chequebook for a few months. It will be a while before the case comes to court but, in my mind and in my heart, I'm now free.

 

Fear of flying? No, I love it.

 

If/when the euphoria fades, I'll let you know!

 

Natwesttookmymoney - but you can call me Natty!!

[Guest NATTIE]

Another pretender to my Natty crown!! Seriously, though that was a long speech as good as any I've seen. Which point are you at in the process?

Is does sound like you may well have quite a few claims going on.

Good Luck and if you are in the Chat Room when I'm there it will be an absolute nightmare for the rest of the guys.

[Guest ian cognito]

What a thread, excellent speech, found my self nodding along to all of it, fortunatley I have already done what you plan, no longer pay charges on our two main accounts into which the salaries go and the bills go out and what a difference it has made! all my disposable income was taken by the banks (and by disposable I mean money for food) and I actually enjoy waiting for that 'charges to be applied to your account' link each month!!! (how sad)

 

Having said all that - THERE'S ONLY ONE NATTY!!!!!

[MadgeXXX]

Dear All

 

For those of you who want to know your credit score but at too afraid to ask - follow this link!

Credit Expert from Experian

 

Just don't forget to cancel your subscription!

 

Madge

[natwesttookmymoney]

Another pretender to my Natty crown!! Seriously, though that was a long speech as good as any I've seen. Which point are you at in the process?

 

Apologies: it hadn't occured to me that you would already be Natty (or maybe I didn't read enough signatures)

So...hmmm...let me think: natty..natty...natty dread...deadlocks...locks....lox.... salmon...west coast of Scotland....got it!

 

You can call me Westy! How's that?

 

And, where am I?

 

just got started - sent the SAR by special delivery laast Friday. Looking forward to teh reply. I already have statements for most of this year in Excel form, and some from others - which saves a lot of inputting. With the help of the gracious and worshipful Vampiress' spreadsheets, it should be a relatively short matter to input all the evidence and build up the claim, which will incorporate intest at the authorised overdraft rate. Not because of a desire for revenge but because I've been runnin g on overdraft for years and tehrefore the interest has, definitely, been charged. It's an additional penalty ona penalty, if you will.

 

Wonder if I can reclaim interest on the interest, on the basis that I was deprived of use of teh money, which could have been on deposit?

[natwesttookmymoney]

Right, and now the fun starts.

 

i have the statements from Joyce Tudor, whose letter included the standard old rubbish about terms and conditions and blah blah. the statements arrived in the proverbial brown envelope - and a few more arrived a couple of days later. Luckily, I've got some on-line statements, which cut the tedium down a bit. There have been settlements in the past, which form a nice natural break - just as well, or I'd have to go down the full County Court route. While I have every confidence that I'd win just the same, it would give Cobbett's the opportunity to delay and delay. I thought of dropping some elements out of the multi-year total to drop it below £5K but then I thought - heck, why should I let them off £100s? They've been rooking me stupid and causing stress, irritation, bad temper, probably something towards my irritable bowel syndrome, too. Not to mention the occasional difficulties with suppliers and traders. Of course, they've occasionally returned cheques covered by cards 'by mistake' - sorry, refunded charge, and so on. But it still screws up one's reputation and makes it a bit diffult to deal, from time to time.

But anyway: I'm just about to send my request for payment. £2,593.86, including interest at 15.59% (with grateful thanks to Vampiress). That was the rate they were charging until a week or so ago. You can get the current and immediately previous rates for authorised overdrafts from teh NatWest.com website, under 'current accounts' - 'rates and charges summary'. The URL is NatWest - Current Accounts - Rates and Charges. Pop the shown EAR into the interest rate cell on Vampiress' magnificent spreadsheets and the number pops up. You can try different ones, the court's standard rates, everything - great fun!

 

The thing left that cheeses me off is the knowledge that it's probably going to take till after Christmas to get it back! Ah, well. We'll have a nice Spring Break instead.

 

Anyway - wish me luck and ongoing courage.

Westie

[natwesttookmymoney]

Oh - something I forgot to mention. A few of the satement pages from Joyce T were duplicated. Very strangely, only ones with charges, not many of them and in no particular order. Is this a mere coincidence or am I getting really paranoid??

[add-enuff]

No you're not paranoid. I had lots of duplicates too, looked pretty random at first but when I checked they were pages with charges. Phoned to ask why and was told that statements relevant to a period before a specific date (can't remember) are generated via a separate system.....so duplicates could be inadvertantly sent out to customers(????)

 

I've noticed a few calculating errors on balances carried forward on comnsequtive statement pages too, had to go over everything with a calculator...but only approx £8 wrong over the 6yrs, weird though...

 

Have you seen that movie Dr Strangelove? Never doubt the power of paranoia my friend....there's usually a good reason for it.

 

Good Luck

[natwesttookmymoney]

Update time.

If you've seen any other threads I've opened and asked for help, you'll know I debated long and hard about how to do it - whether to split the claim or not. I've decided not, with one possible exceptiion, which may arise later. It looks like the Fast Track, which requires disclosure at an early stage, is probably the way to go.

 

Anyway: update.

 

Sent request for payment (with spreadsheets) of £6779 plus interest to my local branch 31 October, by Special Delivery. Its arrival was confirmed by online checking at Royal Mail.

Got a call later in the day from the branch, responding to my request for a phone call(!). I expressed surprise and went top open kmy copy on the computer. She said 'You asked for a 'sincere dialogue'. I agreed I had, but that didn't mean phone calls. She sounded nonplussed and said the letter had been sent to the appropriate department and I could expect to hear within 14 days, i.e., by 13 November. I thnked her and we said goodbye.

 

Checked the spreadsheets and found that some of it hadn't been added up properly! The addition column didn't extend to the end of the column. Ah, well, never mind, it's not the Particulars of Claim and I can amend it when the anticipated bog off letter arrives from Mr Higley.

 

Will update as more happens - and continue to contribute to other threads.

 

The letter I sent read as follows:

 

[deleted]

Letter templates are available in the templates library for registered users only - please do not post them here.

[natwesttookmymoney]

I've just been reading a thread started by Natweststaffmember (a thoroughly Good Egg) on the subject of the Statutory Access Request. It's to be found under the heading 'Data Protection Act is not just Statements" here: www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/19460-data-protection-act-request.html

 

So I'm sending the following letter to Ms Joyce in Auld Reekie

 

Joyce E Tudor

NatWest Bank plc

Retail Regulatory Risk

2nd Floor

Business House B

PO Box 1000

Edinburgh

EH12 1 HQ

 

Dear Mrs Tudor

 

Natwesttookmymoney, Account no XXXXXXX; sort code XXXXXX

 

Thank you for forwarding copies of my statements since the opening of my account, of which I confirm receipt. They came in two packages. Your early response is much appreciated.

 

However, I note that you sent me copy statements only. I had requested, in both my letters – dated 13 and 18 October – “If there has been any event in my account history over this period that has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require

disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you” (quoted from mine of 13 October); and “Please identify any transactions that have required manual intervention by NatWest staff, and either notes or evidence of them.” (18 October). You have not done so.

 

A Statutory Access Request covers all data that the bank holds on me in a form of filing system. That means telephone conversations, notes on my account – both manual and computer, microfiche and visual records and, of course copy statements. You have already supplied the copy statements, for which I thank you once again. Would you now please be kind enough to provide me with the outstanding data? If you are unable to do so, would you please tell me why? I look forward to receiving either the information or a full and satisfactory explanation, which complies with the Act, before the end of the statutory 40 days notice period, which began when I sent you the money – 18 October. A request for more time will not be acceptable.

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

Westy

I'll let you know!

[natwesttookmymoney]

I had been hunting high and low for a letter I'd got from Joyce Tudor at the beginning of November. Finally found it - and you may understand why I couldn't locate it for several days! Here it is, followed by my reply. Excuse

the punctuation in her letter - I didn't do it, she did.

 

Anyway:

 

Natwest Bank plc

Retail Regulatory Risk

2nd Floor Business House B

PO Box 1000

Edinburgh

EH12 1HQ

 

Direct tel: 0131 626 1165

 

Date: 20 October

 

Private and Confidential

Natwesttookmymoney

South Wiltshire

 

 

Dear Mr Natwesttookmymoney,

 

DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998

 

Thank you for your letter dated 2 November I would like to advise you that you letter stipulated that you require a complete list of transactions and charges relating to your banking history from account opening. Also where there has been manual intervention.

 

We sent your statements and also a paragraph on manual intervention, which I have again listed below. From your subsequent letter it appears that you are now looking for a full subject Access, which we will now put into motion. I also note that you are looking for telephone conversations if you can supply me with dates, times and either the department or whom you spoke to this will help me locate this information.

 

Manual Intervention

With reference to your request concerning any ‘manual intervention’ to the administrative charges debited, these charges have been processed in accordance with the terms and conditions of our current agreement with you as a result of the activity on your account. In the event that you breach the terms and conditions, we will take the appropriate action, contacting customers when appropriate, or handling customer enquiries regarding their account status. When a customer has raised a concern in relation to this process, the decision will be communicated to the customer and where appropriate noted on the account.

 

If you have any queries relating to this matter please do not hesitate to contact me at the telephone number shown above.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Joyce E Tudor

Retail Regulatory Risk

 

 

Here's my response to her:

 

 

Dear Ms Tudor

 

Thank you for your letter dated 20 October, which was in reply to my letter of 2 November. You say in it ‘I also note that you are looking for telephone conversations if you can supply me with dates, times and either the department or whom you spoke to this will help me locate this information.’ (sic – the punctuation is yours).

 

The information should be held on your CRM (customer relationship management) IT system. You may call it something else but CRM is the generic name. I don’t know if the NatWest CRM was supplied by Oracle, Siebel, iBaan or someone else – the original may quite possibly have been supplied by iBaan, though it has probably been updated in the years since that company ceased to exist as a separate entity. If it will help you to identify what you’re looking for I will be quite happy to provide you with a screenshot of a generic CRM system. They all look similar. Whatever, it should be fairly easy for you or one of your IT colleagues to locate something that deals with hundreds or thousands of telephone enquiries a day, to input my name and bring up the records. Your call centres all over the country – and those overseas, when you had them – have never had a problem.

 

With regard to names, I spoke to Rob Pike, who was director of telephony operations for NatWest in 2002, when I was writing an article on CRM generally and call centres in particular. He called me back after our interview and corrected something he’d said. The corrected quote was “Our staff turnover is in line with the industry average.” The UK industry average then was 50 per cent staff turnover every three months; I understand it’s about the same now. Therefore, a request to me to provide names from a conversation I had with a member of your staff over a year ago is likely to be quite meaningless. Especially as your people tend to provide first names only.

 

With the greatest possible respect, I regard your request to me to provide you with ‘dates, times and either the department or whom you spoke to’ as a delaying tactic. That isn’t my responsibility. Your responsibility, under the Data Protection Act, is to provide me with the information I have requested. I’m particularly interested in the periods August – November 2005 and August – October 2006.

 

My original request was dated 18 October 2006. The 40 days began then.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Natwesttookmymoney

 

 

 

Anyone who wishes to use this in any way, can. PM me for the magazine and date in which the interview with Rob Pike was published, if you think you'll need it.

 

 

Westy

[MadgeXXX]

What a very good response!

[natwesttookmymoney]

Thank you, ma'am.

 

An humble thing, but mine own!

 

Westy

[Guest NATTIE]

phone calls would be noted on a system, ie when your account was accessed. NatWest, I can confirm, have never had overseas call centres though.

[natwesttookmymoney]

phone calls would be noted on a system, ie when your account was accessed. NatWest, I can confirm, have never had overseas call centres though.

 

Hi

Did they not? I thought they did until they started saying they'd stopepd closing branches and all call centres were in UK - i.e., when acquired by RBS. But I stand corrected - and, luckily, I haven't sent the letter yet so I can correct it, too!

However, I'm right in thinking that the phone calls would be noted on the CRM and should be reained, under the terms of the Data Protection Act - and given to me when I ask for the info?

 

Thanks for all your help

Westy

[Guest NATTIE]

There would be some note of your account being accessed through telephony centres. In terms of recording a call, I believe that the calls would only be kept for a 3 month period.

[natwesttookmymoney]

There would be some note of your account being accessed through telephony centres. In terms of recording a call, I believe that the calls would only be kept for a 3 month period.

 

OK, but if there has been action of any kind, that should be clearly marked, I assume - and retained in accordance with the act, yes?

Westy

[Guest NATTIE]

That's my understanding, yes

[natwesttookmymoney]

OK, thanks.

I keep my recordings (which I've been making since I was sc**wed over a foreign cheque in August) for longer - and the transcripts, too!

Westy

[natwesttookmymoney]

Got a reply to my preliminary request today, from Alex Macauley, Customer Services Manager at Salisbury branch. it seems to herald a new tactic and if anyone else has encountered it, I'd like to know how you dealt with it.

 

Dear Mr Westy

 

Thank you for your letter of 30 October...

 

We believe our charges are fair, reasonable and transparent...blah blah...responded to the Office of Fair Trading...blah blah...standard stuff.

 

And then:

 

In view of the charges on your account I have been asked to request that you return any Service cards and cheque books to branch with immediate effect.

 

Alex Macauley, Customer Services Manager

Now, this is new, as far as I can tell. It's a no-notice withdrawal of banking facilities, in effect.

so - HELP!!! Has anyone else come across this? How did you deal with it?

 

For my part, I've sent this e-mail Michael Duncan, who's Support Manager to the Group Chief Executive (who is Sir Fred Duncan). It reads:

 

Dear Mr Duncan

 

On 31 October I wrote to the Salisbury NatWest branch, requesting refund of charges. I received a letter today, dated 10 November, posted yesterday, 13 November. At the end of the anticipated response (charges fair, reasonable and transparent, etc) was the following paragraph:

 

"In view of the charges on your account I have been asked to request that you return any service cards and cheque books to branch with immediate effect."

 

It was signed Alex Macauley, customer service manager.

 

This response is, in my opinion, intimidatory and I believe it is not in compliance with the British Banking Association Code of Practice. Further, it doesn't seem to comply with the BBA's Standards Board Bulletin no 2, dated 27 July 2006, as it effectively withdraws banking facilities without notice, while a matter is in dispute.

 

I phoned the branch to speak to Ms Macauley and was told she was not available. I was given a phone number which turned out to be an internal line. I called the branch again and asked for Ms Macauley and was told (by a young lady named Carly) that she was on maternity leave. I was further told that no-one in the branch could discuss the matter because the decision was taken elsewhere. I have asked for a letter detailing the decision process, or at least telling me where the decision was taken and giving me a contact point. I have been refused.

 

I have contemporaneous notes of the conversation and flat refusal by Carly (who was, I believe, acting under instructions from the Branch Manager) to provide the information in writing as I requested. I have also recorded the conversation, to ensure my notes are accurate.

 

May I ask you to use your good offices to redress the situation. When I commenced the process of seeking to reclaim bank charges I was prepared for the Bank to ask me to take my business elsewhere but expected reasonable notice, in compliance with the Code of Practice. I am e-mailing you because of the urgency of the situation: I have standing orders and direct debits due for payment later this month.

 

For your information, my name is XXXXXXX, my account number is XXXXXX and the sort code of Salisbury branch is 54-41-19. My home address is incorporated in my signature below. On the day the letter was dated - 10 November - my account was nearly £2000 within its overdraft limit.

 

I look forward to the honour of your early reply.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

Any observations, comments?

 

I shall also, pro tem, start a new thread with this, just to see if anyone else has encountered it.

[natwesttookmymoney]

I'm bringing the two threads - this one and the 'New Tactic...?' one, together here.

[natwesttookmymoney]

From Natweststaffmember (a very fine person!):

 

sent you a PM. Yes the bank can withdraw the cheque book and switch card. It is now probably being dealt with by CRU litigation now, so the expected letter will arrive shortly, i'm sure.

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi

 

I've sent you a PM, too, but for the sake of clarity for anyone else out there, I have been paying in regularly - between £2K and +£4K a month - for over 6 years. Most recent inpayment was last Friday - over £2K - and I'm within my o/d limit by nearly £2K.

Isn't this, in effect, a de facto immediate and no-notice withdrawal of banking facilities. Isn't it in breach of T&C Section 1A (if we wish you to close the account, a written request will be made, specifying the period of time within which you are required to comply with this request), as well as the Bulletin 21 and Section 7.5 of the Association's Code of Practice?

NB -the para was attached to the standard bog-off response to the preliminary request, it was not freestanding, so it doesn't seem to be at CRU litigation, yet.

 

Ideas?

Westy

__________________

Westy

 

If you like my post, click the scales!!

 

S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) sent 18 October

Statements received ... em...shortly afterwards.

Request for repayment of £8750.54 (including interest) sent 31 Oct.

2 Nov - phone call from bank - 'you asked for a phone call'. Person said I'd get a reply from the appropriate department on Nov 13. I can't wait!

13 Nov Still trying to get all the Data Protection Act info...

14 Nov - reply to PRL. Includes request to return cheque book and card - in effect, withdrawal of banking facilities.

14 Nov - 14-day letter sent.

15 Nov - 2nd letter re card/chequebook wdrl sent

 

Any suggestions contained herein are just that - suggestions. I don't give advice as I'm a bigmouth, not a lawyer.

[natwesttookmymoney]

Anyway, I'm intending to include this paragraph in my LBA. Any comments/suggestions?

 

"I am very disappointed at your response to my request, in my letter dated 30 October, for repayment of bank charges. I am particularly saddened by the final paragraph of your letter, which states ‘In view of the charges on your account I have been asked to request that you return any service cards and cheque books to branch with immediate effect.’ This is surprising as the account is still being used and is currently (and was on the date of the letter) within the overdraft limit. I believe that your request is in breach of the British Banking Association’s Code of Practice section 7.5 and counter to the Association’s Standards Board’s bulletin no. 21, dated 21 July 2006, in that it is, de facto, a withdrawal of banking facilities without notice (contrary to your Person Banking Terms and Conditions Section 1a) and has been inserted into your response ad terrorem."