East Midlands Trains - Penalty Fare Notice

[Donkeh]

On leaving the office today, I got on my usual train home and as we approach Nottingham, a member of East Midlands Trains staff asks to see tickets. I drop my hand into my bag where my season ticket always is, but it's not there - I searched my whole bag, pockets etc - I must have left it on my desk.

 

So I apologise to the lady explaining my situation, and ask her for a single between my origin and destination, a fare which is usually £3.50. To this she replies that there will also be a penalty fare of £20 applied. I'm a bit shocked and with the train guard stood next to her, who I see numerous times a week, I offer the credit card receipt carrying the season ticket number and also phone my colleague who is able to send me a photo of my season ticket since he confirms it is sat on my desk. Despite the train guard commenting that "he always has a season ticket", the lady was undeterred and continues to pull out her pad to write a fixed penalty notice.

 

I have no ID on me, so she takes my details and then hands me the pad and asks me to sign. While I'm taking in the information, she asks for the pad back, to read the information from the pad to someone on the phone to verify my name, address etc. She gives me the pad and then says since we have pulled into Nottingham station, she has to fetch her bag. When she returns, I'm still reading the information on the form, when she tells me to sign it since she needs to get off the train as it's now due to leave the station.

 

I explain that before I sign it, I need to finish reading it at which point she snatches the pad off me, scribbles that I have refused to sign and tears off the paperwork handing it to me. While doing this, I asked who she had spoken to on the phone giving my personal details and she said it was a third party company and that I didn't need to know. At this point, she left the train.

 

So I'm looking at the two pieces of paperwork, looking for a number to call to discuss the penalty charge, which while it may be "correct" according to the letter of the law, was dealt with very badly. I can't find any contact information, with the exception of an address to send payment to.

 

Within the small print of the ticket, it suggests that to appeal, I should write to the appeals address on the reverse. Now I was given two copies of this paperwork, neither of them has an appeals address on it. One of the sheets is blank, the other sheet contains a check sheet (probably to be used by the train staff) to describe a person - build, hair colour, hair type, ethnic appearance etc etc.

So have I been given the wrong paperwork, therefore making this notice invalid?

 

If I have to appeal, would I likely be successful by showing my (valid) season ticket?

 

To top it all off, the east midlands trains staff are going on strike tomorrow, offering a bus replacement service which doesn't stop at the regular train stops, including the village where I live - so i'm also going to have to go through the fun of trying to get a refund for part of my season ticket.

 

Thanks east midlands trains - you've really made a regular (everyday!) customer really happy.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice given - it is appreciated.

[neeze9]

You need to appeal to http://www.ircas.co.uk with the ET reference number - they will need a copy of your valid season ticket and photocard.

 

You are permitted to forget your season ticket twice within a 12 month period, on the 3rd occasion the penalty fare will have to be paid in full.

 

If you need to make a complaint about the revenue staff this will be a seperate matter to the penalty fare notice, contact East Midlands customer services.

[jaybee24uk]

Where did you travel from as it may not be a pently fare station.

[RPI]

Basically the PF was correctly issued as you failed to show a valid ticket on demand, if you hold a season then you can appeal and send a copy of your season with the appeal and your appeal will be upheld as this can be done twice in a year as someone else pointed out.

Looks like the RPI gave you 2 copies of the PF notice so they will probably regret that haha.

[Donkeh]

Thanks for the information - just to confirm the station I got on the train at was a penalty fair station, however, I didn't realise I didn't have my season ticket until asked for it on the train.

 

@RPI - I gather from reading some of your other posts that you are a revenua protection person - I don't dispute that by the letter of the law, the ticket was issued correctly - it just doesn't hurt sometimes to be polite, show some compassion and discretion, especially given the credit card receipt, photo of season ticket and train guard to confirm my normally carrying a season ticket - or are you really all robots? (I'm not having a go at you here btw) Your last comment is interesting, are you saying then that I have been given the incorrect paperwork?

 

Thanks.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Donkeh

[Old-CodJA]

Your last comment is interesting, are you saying then that I have been given the incorrect paperwork?

 

No, RPI is saying that the member of staff issuing the notice may have given you one of the copies that should go to the office as well as the one that should be handed to you.

[Donkeh]

No, RPI is saying that the member of staff issuing the notice may have given you one of the copies that should go to the office as well as the one that should be handed to you.

 

Let me re-phrase... since I dont have a copy with an appeals address on the reverse as the paperwork suggests there should be - have I not been given the correct piece of paperwork?

 

I have already filed an appeal on the basis of the argument above by the way - just curious as to this anomaly.

[Old-CodJA]

Let me re-phrase... since I dont have a copy with an appeals address on the reverse as the paperwork suggests there should be - have I not been given the correct piece of paperwork?

 

I have already filed an appeal on the basis of the argument above by the way - just curious as to this anomaly.

 

I'm confused here. Penalty Fare Notices are a one-piece form.

 

If you do not have the appeals address, how have you already filed an appeal?

 

If you have sent it to some other office it is possible that it will not be seen by the PF Appeals administrator.

[Donkeh]

I'm confused here. Penalty Fare Notices are a one-piece form.

 

If you do not have the appeals address, how have you already filed an appeal?

 

If you have sent it to some other office it is possible that it will not be seen by the PF Appeals administrator.

 

The penalty fare notice is a single form, however I have the top copy and a carbon copy from underneath. Presumably, the officer in question also has a carbon copy, but is perhaps the copy that should have been given to me?

 

I have appealed using the information given above (IRCAS website). The website asks for a code from the form which I was able to provide, and then showed all of my details as filled in on the notice.

[Old-CodJA]

The penalty fare notice is a single form, however I have the top copy and a carbon copy from underneath. Presumably, the officer in question also has a carbon copy, but is perhaps the copy that should have been given to me?

 

I have appealed using the information given above (IRCAS website). The website asks for a code from the form which I was able to provide, and then showed all of my details as filled in on the notice.

 

There are minor variations, but Penalty Fare pads are more or less a national standard for those areas in which they are applicable.

 

The top copy is made out with the details of the journey and irregularity, signed by both the issuer and the person being reported and torn off and handed to the traveller. All of the essential details are printed on that copy and repeated exactly on the copies beneath. The address for appeal is printed next to the instruction regarding how to appeal and the date that the appeal or payment must be received by, which is filled in by the issuer at the time of issue.

 

These are self carbonating paper (NCR) and the second copy is normally sent to the administration office and a further copy remains in the issuer's pad. In the early days there were four copies and it is possible that some TOCs retain that format. Most have three.

[RPI]

With FGW PF's there are 4 copies, top to customer, 2nd to Reading rev protection, 3rd goes to RPSS and 4th stays in book. as for the comments regarding attitude etc I didn't dispute this nor did i comment on it, a photo of a ticket is not acceptable, whats to say that another person hasnt just sent you a picyure of their season ticket? as for the reciept, whats to say that you didn't buy a season ticket then put it in for a refund? all hypothetical but people do pull these tricks off which is why we very rarely believe a word anyone says. Also, we only have one side of the story regarding what was said/done on the day so i only chose to comment on the facts of the matter which are that you failed to produce a valid ticket when asked, the PF was correctly issued and you will more than likely succeed in your appeal due to the safeguards built into the system to allow for genuine mistakes.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes RPI, I had in mind that FGW still use the original format for their pads.

 

From the OPs description of what occurred there doesn't appear to be an issuing loophole, which it seem s is what the OP is looking for, but as you say, we only get one side of the exchange on here

 

For the OP, if you have a valid season and haven't done this before, send a clear photocopy of the season and photocard with an appeal and it should be allowed.

[RPI]

this thread has gone quite, any updates?

[Donkeh]

Hi

 

Just to confirm, I was given two copies of the PFN, however, neither copy carries the address to write to for appeals on the back, as is indicated on the front.

 

For reference, will try to scan the two copies to show you.

 

@Old-CodJA - the loophole you mention is purely curiosity as to whether if I did challenge it, it would stand. My work relies on a clean record so for the sake of £20, there is no way I would even consider this route, without a rock solid guarantee of the outcome.

 

For reference, I did submit my appeal via the IRCAS website, on 1st May - however I'm yet to hear from them. The cynic in me wonders if in 4 months time, some debt collector will turn up on my door, demanding payment since without my knowledge (and without having received a reply to my appeal) I'll have been taken to court and found guilty. (This statement is my reflection on reading a number of other threads, of which I don't have the full story).

 

Was planning on giving IRCAS 21 days to respond to my appeal before trying to contact them again, since none of the information suggested in what time period they would respond to me. - Anybody know?

 

Thanks.

[Donkeh]

Me again - as promised - I have attached an image of the PFN with the personal information masked out.

 

In case the text is not clear in the image, the 2nd paragraph under the "IMPORTANT NOTICE" heading reads... "If you wish to dispute your liability to pay a Penalty Far, a statement giving an explanation of your failure to produce a valid ticket or other authority for your journey, together with any information as to your journey referred to in that explanation, must be made in writing and sent to the Appeals address on the reverse so as to arrive no later than 21 days from the date shown at the top of this notice."

 

You can see from the images of the back of the pages, that no address is shown.

 

[Donkeh]

Got a letter through yesterday stating the appeal was upheld

[RPI]

Result! glad it worked out.

[Old-CodJA]

Well done