Proving you checked in/out on oyster

[dan2011]

Hello

 

Is there anyway to prove if you have checked in/out of oyster aside from the print out and their records. If the machine went beep, (no gates) and you assumed that was okay is that bad, or is there a way to prove. The reason behind the query is that my oyster was checked, I was told it had not been checkedin on the journey. I was told I need to pay a fine, even though I explained that I had checkin everywhere else during the day, and even had topped up my card when I started the day. I was never told that I could pay and appeal later. This went on for some time...there is lots more too it, I am now awaiting a court notice or whatever and a fine for £1000 for something I have not done. Surely this is not correct. Any pointers or people who have been through this before ?

 

Danny

[Nystagmite]

You can check your last 8 week history on the TFL website.

[dan2011]

Yes but what if that does not show it, which I am presuming it does not, since when they checked it it said it did not show.

 

Just to give some more background, I checkedin at a over-rail (had been traveling around London on the tube all day) and my next stop was in a few stops, which had barriers on it. Long story short, inspector checked, it should I had not checked in. Asked to pay £20 I said I am not sure why since I checked in, name check happened, they could not verify, do got taken off, and waited for BTP, they came, they checked all correct. At the same time they told me I should have just paid the £20 now I will need to pay £1000, even though I still queried why? since it was my belief that I had checked in, and would have been rather foolish not to have since there are barriers at the next place.

 

Was told I was abusive, not that I raised my voice nor do I use offensive language. Then I was 'cautioned' by the FCC people, when asked if I understood I replied that I did not understand all of it, since I did not. They filled out a form, asked to sign in, I said I would but there was an error, could they correct it, they then corrected it on another form, but this time did not fill out my details, and again did not enter everything I had said, so again I said I would sign it if they add my name and address. At which point some box was checked, and I was told I would get a letter in 4 -5 weeks.

 

I have read lots of threads here about writing a groveling letter, pay some money and let it go. But after having checked in 5 times in a day, topped up my card having enough money on my card, and as far as I know checked in at the other place, surely this is not how one is treated. Some of us work, and my entire afternoon was written off, of course I have no recourse unless I take civil action, and the inspectors know that. I find it highly offensive that one can be thought of as a criminal when they have tried everything they can to do what is correct, and to ensure they followed all procedures.

 

Please note I checked in at stops in the morning where there are NO barriers NOR and guards, and did this 4 times. So if the inspector had not been there I would have reached my destination, tried to get out, and then walked over to the counter and explained that I checkedin, and which point I would have been told to call TFL and get a refund because it did not register my entry. This is the reason I did not pay the £20 simply because I knew I had checked in. During all this I even walked out the station whilst waiting for the BTP, if I had given incorrect address I could have just carried on walking, but I knew I had done nothing wrong, I came back with some food. I was told the oyster system never has any errors, and I am not better than the machine.

 

Would love to hear suggestions, even though I feel they maybe "Send letter and grovel" Anyone actually gone to court and won.

 

Danny

Edited January 7, 2012 by dan2011

[The Urbanite]

A Trim printout will show all validations, if the validation was unsuccessful then it will state why. If down to an issue within your control, such as having insufficient credit or not ensuring it connected properly then I don't see how it will help you.

[honeybee13]

Hello there and welcome to CAG. The guys will try to help you if they can.

 

My OH has an Oyster card too and tells me there's a visual display as well as the beep which is supposed to alert you to any problems. I don't know if the check in and 'problem' beeps are the same.

 

I can't recall offhand anyone here who's gone to court and won a case like this, but you can search the forum using the search tool for similar threads.

 

My best, HB

[SRPO]

If its not on the TFL computer then you didnt touch in, there is no grey area or loop hole.

[The Urbanite]

Hmmm, my journey history is surprisingly showing two incomplete journeys, although I touched in and out. These took place on New Years Eve. The journeys were London Bridge LU to Canning Town (barrier at both ends) and West Silvertown to London Bridge, again I definitely validated at both ends.

 

I received an automatic refund for the first journey, but not the second. Presumably TRIM shows the correct validations were made, although the online history just shows it as two incomplete journeys. I advise to OP to follow the advice I gave above.

[dan2011]

This does not make sense. @SRPO are you saying that if a ticket inspector scans my card with that little handheld device and they say I did not touch in that I did NOT touch in. In addition if it beeps once and a green light shows can I assume it has been added correctly, if not how can I check it has in every journey, since I get no printout and their are no physical barriers which swing open

 

Also if there is no grey area then why do people get charge incorrectly and tfl had to refund millions in 2010. If some people (not my case) are getting charged excess fares there must be some error in the system.

 

Danny

[The Urbanite]

The system is riddled with errors unfortunately. I had the misfortune of being "done" by a NXEA RPI for not touching in with my Oyster Card. In actual fact, I did touch in successfully, only 18 minutes earlier. A Trim printout was able to prove that I did and I used it as evidence against the decision to uphold the sanction. It turned out that the cause of the confusion was owing to the fact that several short trips linked by OSIs are treated as one long trip and thence the price and time limits are applied for that one long trip. So Forest Hill - Manor Park Wanstead Park - Woodgrange Park Forest Gate - Liverpool Street was treated as a Forest Hill - Liverpool Street journey. Of course, the hour or so allowed for that is not enough for the route I took and thus I was charged two maximum fares (~£9) when it should have cost closer to £5.50. Of course, a normal passenger should not be expected to know that beforehand and TfL were sympathetic and helpful, although IRCAS and NXEA had different opinions on that matter.

 

So I'm potentially sympathetic - dan2011, could you please post a coherent account of exactly what happened? If it was more than 8 weeks ago, you need not bother as I won't be able to help.

[dan2011]

[post deleted became a rant ]

 

Danny

Edited January 8, 2012 by dan2011

[andydd]

Danny.

 

Your posts are a bit too much ranting and 'they should of done this or that', all we need is the absolute facts...as it stands its quite hard to decipher whats going on, apart from you seem to be saying that the Oyster system has made a mistake somehow, I use it every day and find that hard to believe, it is of course possible for Oyster not to actually make mistakes but to make assumptions that you got on and off and certain points (such as Urbanite's sceanrio, although I note, his scenario doesnt leave you at risk of being charged a penalty fare or prosucuted just being overcharged).

 

Andy

[dan2011]

Sure it sounds like a rant, but in short:

 

I got hauled off at Streatham for supposedly not touching in at Elephant and Castle. Which I did. My question is actually quite simple, if a system is fallible then how can that very system be used to prove ones innocence or even if they are guilty.

 

The second question is whether or not the handheld devices that the inspectors carry are in sync with what has/is being recorded by TFL from their machines, and if not then how can they be used by the inspectors. and if they are then the two must always show the same results (irrespective of how complicated the journey is) , unless I am missing something here.

 

The third question being when I beep in with my oyster is that logged into some central system, if so is that central system updated immediately or with a delay.

 

Danny

Edited January 8, 2012 by dan2011

[andydd]

If your Oyster says you didnt touch in then I find it very hard to believe that you did but somehow the sytem that millions use suddenly went wrong somehow. Remember its not just touching in, but the machine must show a green light, a red or orange light means yopur oyster has not been accepted, all machines have the red/orange/green lights whether they are stand alone/or operate gates.

 

The handheld devices read the info on your card, the card itself holds information about your last few journeys and will be synced when you touch in an out, this means that your card always contains upto date info. (I dont know the exact complexities of how it works but i believe there are websites out there that can explain it all).

 

I believe everytime you swipe your oyster it does upddate a central database. Again the exact complexities can be viewed online.

 

You seem to be implying that you somehow were travelling with a card that you swiped but wasnt registered on the sytem, this just doesnt happen. (Remember the swipe in/out info isnt just on the central database system but also on your card itself, hence it can be read by handheld readers).

 

It appears that there are two scenarios here:-

 

1. You swiped your Oyster, the machine beeped and flashed green and your oyster was valid but somehow the system went wrong and showed that you didnt swipe in..This scenario seems very unlikeley and Im sure TfL would say impossible.

 

2. You didnt swipe your oyster or you did swipe it but it didnt register or there wasnt enough money on it resulting in a red or orange flash (and a different beep sound).

 

3. I guess there is a 3rd scenario where you swiped in but somehow swiped out on your journey, this is possible in some slightly confusing rail/tube interchanges.

 

Andy

[dan2011]

Hello

 

Referring to the 3 scenarios

 

1. TFL may say this is impossible, that I swiped but there system is incorrect, but lets be honest if there system did not make a mistake they would not have to refund people. Hence it is possible, and if so the inspectors should never have the right to ask anyone to pay a penalty. Whether or not I am wrong I am curious to know if a system is fallible then how can they use that system to prosecute people

 

2. There was enough money because I topped up the card 2.5 hrs earlier using my debit card

 

3. I could not have swiped out on my journey since I was sitting on the train, and unless there are machines which I can walk past on the stairs which swipe me out then that is impossible

 

You maybe wondering why I am querying this so much, the simple answer is that on this forum time and again everyone says that the TFL machines are infallible. I went to the tube station the next day to get a print out of my journey, where it clearly shows I checked in when I said I checked in correctly, and it shows me how much I was charged.

 

Now based on this snippet of info, can we say the systems are infallible, or the handheld systems that the inspectors use are not in sync...or is there another explanation

 

 

[Just done some reading, the oyster readers send information in batches to the central processing system, hence the latest information is held only on the card. The handheld scanners just read what is on the card, since connecting to the network may lead to network errors, and since the central database is only updated in batches, it makes no sense to read them]

 

Of course this means I am confused even more, my printout shows I was right, the beep shows I was correct, I said I was correct, the handheld scanner said I was not. How can this happen ?

Danny

Edited January 8, 2012 by dan2011

[The Urbanite]

Danny.

 

Your posts are a bit too much ranting and 'they should of done this or that', all we need is the absolute facts...as it stands its quite hard to decipher whats going on, apart from you seem to be saying that the Oyster system has made a mistake somehow, I use it every day and find that hard to believe, it is of course possible for Oyster not to actually make mistakes but to make assumptions that you got on and off and certain points (such as Urbanite's sceanrio, although I note, his scenario doesnt leave you at risk of being charged a penalty fare or prosucuted just being overcharged).

 

Andy

 

I did actually get Penalty Fared for that because I had insufficient credit to cover the unexpected overcharge. The NXEA RPI didn't care what I had to say about it and the RPI's Manager at NXEA, after I had written it, felt that he was correct to issue the Penalty Fare and it was fair that I as the passenger was penalised.I also worked in Revenue Protection issuing Penalty Fares. I was issued with a handheld Oyster reader and I can confirm that they can malfunction and not show where a customer has touched in. The system is complex and riddled with errors but oddly is consistent, so somebody who is intelligent enough to understand the system will be able to decipher whether or not the customer did touch in.

[The Urbanite]

Sure it sounds like a rant, but in short:

 

I got hauled off at Streatham for supposedly not touching in at Elephant and Castle. Which I did. My question is actually quite simple, if a system is fallible then how can that very system be used to prove ones innocence or even if they are guilty.

 

The second question is whether or not the handheld devices that the inspectors carry are in sync with what has/is being recorded by TFL from their machines, and if not then how can they be used by the inspectors. and if they are then the two must always show the same results (irrespective of how complicated the journey is) , unless I am missing something here.

 

The third question being when I beep in with my oyster is that logged into some central system, if so is that central system updated immediately or with a delay.

 

Danny

 

Did you start your journey at Elephant & Castle NR, or did you make an ealier Underground trip that day that ended at Elephant & Castle?

 

Through my thoroughly extensive research of the Oyster system, I can confirm that each journey history shows different versions of what happened. The ways of obtaining the history are as follows;

 

1. Oyster journey statement (LUL FasTis)

2. Oyster journey statement (NR FasTis)

3. Journey history shown on LU Passenger Operated Machines.

4. Online PAYG journey history.

5. Handheld Movie device.

6. PDF Statement sent by Oyster Helpline team.

7. Bus Wayfarer usage statement.

8. Newsagent xPert usage statement.

9. TRIM Journey Status Report.

 

1-8 are dumbed down "user friendly" versions designed to make it easy for the user to understand what has been done. At best, they're all crap at accurately showing the details of a more complex journey, as bits are lost in translation when the simplfication alogrithims kick in. The only one which accurately shows everything is the TRIM JSR.

 

Handheld readers are too complex for some RPIs to understand. I personally used one during my time in the ticket office and revenue protection. The stations shown are compressed into 6 or 7 characters, similar to the National Rail TIPLOC location directory. Sometimes it's difficult to tell what station the passenger has come from. Often this is only accompanied by a number like 4.30 which signifies that a maximum entry fee has been deducted. Again, some RPIs who are clueless take this as evidence that a traveller has been "penalty fared" when in fact, the maximum fee by default is deducted when touching in, only refunded when the card is touched out properly.

 

Although in the majority of cases, Oyster issues are down to passenger error, I feel members should excise caution in shooting down posters who think something might have been amiss. I'm happy to support anyone who may have been the victim of a technical error and/or an RPI who unjustly penalised them, because I've been there, done that and got the recission by IRCAS to uphold the sanction to boot.

Edited January 9, 2012 by The Urbanite

[SRPO]

If the movie device doesnt show a touch in when reading the card, then the person didnt touch in.

There are lots of very complex scenarios that show the oyster system to be plagued with faults, but reading the card with a 'correctly working' reader is infallible.

[andydd]

I agree with SRPO, in that the complexities of the oyster system don't matter, the point raised here it quite simple, the Op says he did swipe IN and therefore the oyster was valid to travel BUT a handheld device then went on to show he didnt swipe in...this is quite a major difference and most of the above points about compressed names and dumbed down printouts are irrelevant.

 

It would appear the OP only defence is to prove that the handheld oyster device are somehow faulty..a very hard point to prove indeed.

 

I do recall though a while back that a group of people did prove that with the right equipment Oysters can be hacked and the data manipulated, not that is really any relevance.

 

Is the actual Oyster card ok and still working ?, I had a card that went nuts and couldnt be read by anything, handheld or otherwise.

 

Andy

[dan2011]

So just to add a little more to the story

 

1. Today I obtained my statement from TFL and walked through it on the phone, they confirmed that I HAD touched in at Elephant and castle exactly at the time I said I had. The national rail station, and that I had been charged incorrectly.

 

2. So this is where it gets interesting, they said that although I had touched in, I had touched in at the WRONG point, and hence was overcharged.

 

They refunded the amount of overcharging.

 

Of course again I will be told it is my fault, but surely the handheld devices could have detected that I had checked in but at the wrong one, and in fact by doing this ended up (and have been doing so for over 3 yrs...glad I found out) paying more than I should have.

 

So I did touch in, and the handheld readers could not detect this, whether at the right or wrong one is irrelevant, since they hauled me off due to my intent. I now have a printout showing I touched in, and also a history by TFL showing that I touched in. My intent was not to defraud, and it seems on this list everyone is guilty and the machines are infallible, clearly not. They are not able to show that you touched in, at least not all the time.

 

Now I am awaiting FCC to write to me and haul me to court

 

Danny

 

[Note: The hauled me off because their systems could not verify my address....which again is a problem with their systems not mine]

Edited January 9, 2012 by dan2011

[andydd]

What do they mean by the wrong point ? Surely you can swipe in at any Oyster point now, I know there used to be a difference at NR station that accepted Oyster BUT only Oyster season tickets and not standard Oyster PAYG, I thought the only restrictions now within central london are on the fast airport run trains ?

 

Also you said they hauled you off becuase they couldnt verify your address ?. But surely they hauled you off becuase they claimed you didnt have a valid ticket ?..The address checkuing is a secondary procedure and uses a combination of databases but its still quite possible and in fact quite common not to appear on any of them.

 

Have you been sent a notice to prosecute you ?

 

Andy

[The Urbanite]

If the movie device doesnt show a touch in when reading the card, then the person didnt touch in.

There are lots of very complex scenarios that show the oyster system to be plagued with faults, but reading the card with a 'correctly working' reader is infallible.

 

From my own personal experiences of using one for revenue protection purposes, I beg to differ, but that is my own personal stance.

[SRPO]

From my own personal experiences of using one for revenue protection purposes, I beg to differ, but that is my own personal stance.

 

Are you saying that a correctly working reader will give erroneous readings?

[andydd]

Are you saying that a correctly working reader will give erroneous readings?

 

As there must of been many people prosecuted or penalty charged soley due to the 'evidence' of a reader this could be quite a big deal !

 

Andy

[honeybee13]

As there must of been many people prosecuted or penalty charged soley due to the 'evidence' of a reader this could be quite a big deal !

 

Andy

 

I agree. This is all a bit confusing for those of us trying to understand the ticket system from the outside.

 

My best, HB

[andydd]

I also wonder if a handheld device does indeed show red or unswiped if they give it a few more tries ?...I say this because my Oyster has become rather unreliable..I had to swipe a few times and eventually take it out of my wallet before I could exit the tube today...now to a handheld device surely this would look like I hadnt swiped in when indeed I had.

 

Andy