Cap1 & CCA return

[noomill060]

An unenforceable agreement with no prescribed terms IS a civil matter.

 

If finance companies want to build a scaffold, make a noose, put their neck in it and ask you to pull the lever, that is their business.

 

Its not TS's role to say "Thats not a good idea"

[noomill060]

It just boils down to the fact that no one is going to fight your battles for you.

 

You just have to make sure you go into your battle armed to the teeth.

 

You have just entered The Armoury, main man.

 

Write back them and ask them to state what in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 leads them to believe that:

 

"If you intend to challenge the bank's right to any payment because no agreement exists between you, then this is a very risky move"

 

and

 

 

"you used the card so there must have been some form of agreement"

 

[noomill060]

"you used the card so there must have been some form of agreement"

 

So make them prove it. Then make them prove its enforceable.

[noomill060]

Exactly, goldlady.

 

It would be very easy to show how much was borrowed and how much was repaid.

 

Without an agreement to pay any interest, any attempt to enforce an outstanding amount could be be construed as harassment.

[noomill060]

Thats a thought-

 

A claim for damages under Protection from Harassment Act.

 

The Claimant believes he/she is being harrased by XYZ Bank PLC for an amount XYZ Bank PLC claims is owed in interest.

 

The Claimant denies any enforceable agreement exists whereby they ever agreed to pay interest and invites XYZ Bank to prove it or cease and desist harrasment and pay damages of £xxx.xx

[noomill060]

No- forget that. You can start a claim under CCA1974.

[noomill060]

well said, elizabeth

 

[noomill060]

This guy needs some urgent advice. I asked him to come to this thread.

 

Barclaycard are in breach of his CCA request, owe the guy a fortune in charges and have made the mistake of starting enforcement action against him.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/116897-ccj-barclaycard-advice-please.html#post1179140

[noomill060]

Receieved app form and later two copies of T&Cs, one dated dated july 1999. A week or so later, another copy app form arrived, this time with a copy of August 1999 T&Cs.

 

Credit limit on T&Cs is not that which was given.

 

 

Just recieved this email from TS:

 

I have written to Barclaycard requesting their comments on your complaint.

I have researched your complaint and believe that the information that you have been provided may have satisfied your Section 78 request as the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (as amended) permits the exclusion of signature boxes from the copy of the agreement.

 

Furthermore, as you have correctly pointed out, every copy must be a true copy.

However, this is subject to any exceptions. In the case of a credit card agreement, the Regulations provide that every copy of the agreement must contain a statement of the 'current terms' if the agreement contains a contractual power of variation.

This means that the copy provided to you by Barclaycard need not be an identical copy to the original agreement.

Changes to the interest rate and your credit limit are permitted as per clauses 3 and 12 of your agreement.

The information you have supplied me with appears to a be a copy of your agreement and includes all the prescribed terms required, subject to the variations.

If the prescribed terms or any other material matter are not included in the copy then Barclaycard would unlikely have complied with your Section 78 request, however, it appears that they have been included and there has been no breach of section 78.

The letter you include from DTI refers only to the circumstances of a Mr Bardsley and is not specific to your own complaint.

You do not appear to have been provided only the terms and conditions of your agreement, as it seems that all the required information has been provided to you.

From the information you have provided me with it appears possible that your request has been met, albeit beyond the prescribed period of twelve working days and one month.

I have written to Barclaycard to warn them about their future conduct in respect of any request made to them for a copy of a credit agreement.

If you believe that you have not signed an agreement with Barclaycard then you are perfectly entitled to raise this as a defence in any court proceedings. A court would be unlikely to enforce an improperly executed agreement.

Furthermore, if you want to be provided with an exact copy of your original agreement you can ask for this information but you will likely have to pay a fee for it.

 

As I explained earlier, Section 78 does not entitle a consumer to an exact/identical copy of their credit agreement i.e. one which includes signature boxes, the rate of interest and the credit limit at the time of signing as these may be varied throughout the lifetime of an agreement.

[noomill060]

They dont seem to appreciate that an application form and a leaflet marked T&Cs are two separate documents.

[noomill060]

Talking to TS is like talking to someone from another planet.

 

I know they are looking at the same CCA1974 as amended, but how can they ignore/ disregard what we can see, especially when it is brought to their attention for comment?

 

As can be seen in the above letter, Peter, I sent copies of your communications from the DTI, but as noted, they disregard this as only specific to your enquiry. Jayzuz!

 

(Hope you didnt mind me using the letters)

[noomill060]

Yeah, copy of app form and T&Cs from a few months before I applied for the card.

[noomill060]

No PTs on app form. I spoke to a barrister briefly today about it.

 

He chuckled.

[noomill060]

I should say, he chuckled and shook his head in disbelief when I told him no PTs.

[noomill060]

We were just having a natter and a smoke during his fag break.

 

It was just a quick word and he didnt make any suggestions and scrurried away before I could ask him!

 

Cant say I blame him. What he did say was that CCA1974 is well established and fairly straight forward to argue either way.

 

Either something is enforcable or it isnt.

[noomill060]

magda- ask them to quote the section of the Consumer Credit Act which states that a signature and a reference to another document is sufficient to permit a court to make an enforcement order.

[noomill060]

magda- if you can take a pic of it, or scan it- dont forget to remove your name and address from it before putting it up here.

 

Have you any had any charges on this card?

 

If so- you can use this to show the Default Notice to be void and stop them in their tracks.

[noomill060]

This chap could do with a bit of advice:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/105476-cca-response-2.html

[noomill060]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/122309-id-say-were-winning-2.html

 

From CAG member andrew1:

 

I'm sure CT mag won't mind me lifting this over and letting people know the effect we are having on these DCA's. Something the Consumer Action Group have been working at for ages:the Cabot Fan Club has been encouraging people to pound these DCA's with requests to abide by the law and they don't like what we are doing, but it is making its mark and whilst they call us 'rougue debtors' and say we are teaching people to 'Avoid Debt' this is living proof that our campaign is completely the opposite to what they think - all we want is for them to operate within the law and do things correctly - well - someone has noticed! Well done everyone we ARE winning...: enjoy

 

Credit Today online

 

- 29/11/2007

Stark warning on CCA preparations

 

The industry has to be ready to comply with Consumer Credit Act regulations coming in over the next year or it faces successful challenges from increasingly powerful debtors.

 

That was the message at the Credit Today collections conference in Birmingham yesterday. Joanne Davis, partner in credit and asset finance at BPE solicitors, said there will be more defences available to debtors as creditors are obliged to follow strict guidelines for sending default protection information sheets and default protection arrears notices.

 

"If you don't do it you can't enforce," she said. "Debtors will know of these duties and if a default protection arrears notice is not sent they have an excuse for non payment."

 

Davis added that creditors need to think carefully about who takes on these responsibilities when they place or sell debts.

 

"It is very cumbersome. There are lots of notices to be sent and some lenders are looking at cutting down on default sums because of the complicated regulations."

 

Meanwhile, George Wilkinson of Wilkinson Associates said there is a 'regulation crunch' affecting the industry. "The OFT has substantially increased powers and they can hurt you," he warned.

 

"You're going to spend a lot more time and money on training and procedures and will be collecting less," he added. "

[noomill060]

Spotted this-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-charges-media/127424-bbc-midlands-credit-card.html#post1335383

 

The link doesnt work, but this what it refers to:

 

BBC News Player - Credit card debts wiped

 

This is the website:

 

Credit Card Killer - Wipe your debts away!

 

They want 20% of your debt upfront as a "sevice charge"

 

Where do we find out about the Court of Appeal judgement that (they claim) now makes 75% of all CCAs unenforceable?

 

Yes, of course we have known that for ages, but it appears that there is now case law supporting our long held views.

 

In their website sales pitch, specific mention is made of:

 

1) applications made on forms picked up in shops/petrol stations

 

2) applications made on form received as mail shots.

 

Anyone thinking of paying them the £55 for a "report" would be well advised to hang fire. Whatever debts they have wiped as a result of their victory in the Court of Appeal, the judgement will soon be available to all- for free.

 

 

We just need to locate the judgement they refer to.

 

 

BAILII - BAILII Databases

[noomill060]

According to their website, its something to do with upper case letters being used where lower case is necessary!

 

Eh?

[noomill060]

They want 20% of your debt upfront as a "service charge":eek:

 

£16K in my case

 

 

Yeah, lets get looking for that judgement!

 

Im on the case right now, but it doesnt seem to have been put online yet.

 

Im assuming this is an England and Wales case.

 

BAILII - BAILII Databases

[noomill060]

The same thought had occured to me, but there being so few examples of enforceable CCAs, I wouldnt know what one looks like!

 

(Neither does it seem, do the banks...)

[noomill060]

As soon as I raised the validity of the agreement, Barclaycard also backed off.

 

Never to be heard of since.

[noomill060]

Good stuff Ian, though I doubt they would provide the case number.

 

Hardly in their commercial interest, is it, but isnt it rather, well, unconventional, setting yourself up without actually having any legal qualifications and then wanting payment upfront?

 

 

 

I wonder how much from this thread went into the case they presented...