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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Bong v HSBC *Contractual Interest & 13yr claim**WON!!!**


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Another one watching with interest Bong - go get 'em :)

 

Cheers

 

Michael

 

would that be at the contractual or the statutory rate sir?:D do excuse me - my minds full of the stuff :smile: !

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Hi Bong

 

Just about to do the same thing as you but against Natwest we really having a headache about the particulars so hope you dont mind me using yours as they are gr8.

 

Heres my thread if your interested http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/37730-claims-older-than-6-a.html

 

My account goes back to 1990 - I also chickened out of the contractual a). wanted to keep below £5k cause of abit of a gamble b). couldnt figure out how the hell to work it lol

 

Quick question what did you put on the front of the N1 under Brief Details and value?

 

All the best with your claim ;)

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would that be at the contractual or the statutory rate sir?:D

 

ROTFL - contractual, of course ;):D

 

(and it wasn't even intentional)

 

Cheers

 

Michael

Please note that the right to reproduce any part of any post I make on this forum is restricted under copyright law.

 

Please see the following copyright statement

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Hi Bong

 

Just about to do the same thing as you but against NatWest we really having a headache about the particulars so hope you dont mind me using yours as they are gr8.

 

Heres my thread if your interested http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/37730-claims-older-than-6-a.html

 

My account goes back to 1990 - I also chickened out of the contractual a). wanted to keep below £5k cause of abit of a gamble b). couldnt figure out how the hell to work it lol

 

Quick question what did you put on the front of the N1 under Brief Details and value?

 

All the best with your claim ;)

 

thanks matheos, you're welcome to use them. lets hope they work! Under brief details I put "Money Claim as outlined in the Particulars of Claim" and in the value section I left it blank because you don't need to write anything there if you know the amount you're claiming.

 

Edit: you still need to fill in the amount claimed box of course!

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they aint 'alf spoil sports aint they bill? thanks for the thought anyway, and don't do anything your mother wouldn't have approved of...

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cheers. for a minute there I misread what you had written as "try again for the particulars"...LOL!:p

 

good luck to you too!

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This is part of the argument that I am using over section 32:

 

 

48 The Defendant is a major financial institution within a group of companies that have interests throughout the world. They operate as fiduciary to many thousands of customers in the UK, and employ a large number of staff, including experienced corporate lawyers and accountants.

 

49 As a company regulated under the Financial Services Authority, they have agreed to abide by the Principles for Businesses, as outlined in Chapter 2, of the FSA Handbook:

1. Integrity - A firm must conduct its business with integrity.

2. Skill, care and diligence - A firm must conduct its business with due skill, care and diligence.

3. Management and control - A firm must take reasonable care to organise and control its affairs responsibly and effectively, with adequate risk management systems.

4. Financial Market Conduct - A firm must maintain adequate financial resources.

5. A firm must observe proper standards of market conduct.

6. Customers’ interests - A firm must pay due regard to the interests of its customers and treat them fairly.

7. Communications with clients - A firm must pay due regard to the information needs of its clients, and communicate information to them in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading.

8. Conflicts of interest - A firm must manage conflicts of interest fairly, both between itself and its customers and between a customer and another client.

9. Customers: relationships of trust - A firm must take reasonable care to ensure the suitability of its advice and discretionary decisions for any customer who is entitled to rely upon its judgment.

10. Clients' assets - A firm must arrange adequate protection for clients' assets when it is responsible for them.

11. Relations with regulators - A firm must deal with its regulators in an open and cooperative way, and must disclose to the FSA appropriately anything relating to the firm of which the FSA would reasonably expect notice.

 

50 This document is produced under the powers given to the FSA within the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, and provides a benchmark by which financial companies should operate within the United Kingdom. Paragraph 9, places a duty on companies to “take reasonable care to ensure the suitability of its advice and discretionary decisions for any customer who is entitled to rely upon its judgment”. I contend that banks fiduciary responsibility is encapsulated in law, and therefore if such a regulated company informs a customer that it is entitled to levy a charge against an account, it would be reasonable to expect the account holder to believe that the actions of the bank are lawful, and that the charge relates to it’s internal costs, as they continue to contend is the case.

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Something worth considering is that the banks will almost certainly claim they didn't know the charges were unlawful if it gets to court.

 

Concealment Can be both intentional and unintentional.

 

Assuming that a case was presented logically the first point would be to argue the charges were unlawful.

 

If that argument is well made then it follows that irrespective of whether the banks concealed the nature of their charges on purpose or not, then they have concealed the nature of their charges in fact from their customers.

 

I'm sure i read somewhere in one of the case judgements i read that concealment doesn't have to be deliberate.

 

BTW i do think they knew, but they are unlikely to admit it.

 

JMHO

Glenn

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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Thanks Glenn. I was advised by zootscoot that ignorance of the law is not a defence. So basically the bank is prevented from claiming that it didn't know the charges were unlawful.

 

As regards the concealment and whether it was deliberate or not, are you saying that subsequent case law now overrides the wording of s.32b?

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Thanks Glenn. I was advised by zootscoot that ignorance of the law is not a defence. So basically the bank is prevented from claiming that it didn't know the charges were unlawful.

 

Ive heard that before once or twice, however, do you think on the other hand the bank will say yes we knew it was unlawful to make these charges? It would be useful for them to admit it but i cant see it.

 

As regards the concealment and whether it was deliberate or not, are you saying that subsequent case law now overrides the wording of s.32b? Thats a fair point about the wording, Sec 32.1.b uses the word deliberate and from what i recall of what i read the act of concealment to be deliberate doesn't have to mean that the defendant knew and actively concealed the facts. Simply the fact that they knowingly or otherwise concealed the facts from you amounts to the same thing where they should have known.

 

Ill try to find the case i read this in, i may have misread or misunderstood but ill see if i can find it in my 'library' and get back to the forum one way or another.

 

Ive read so much over the past few months that i now have a lot of trouble remembering exactly what i read and where, hopefully ill find the bit and be able to confirm one way or another about the concealment issue.

 

Glenn

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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Ive heard that before once or twice, however, do you think on the other hand the bank will say yes we knew it was unlawful to make these charges? It would be useful for them to admit it but i cant see it

 

Its not really our problem to worry about this is it? If they can't claim they didn't know it was unlawful we are better off.

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Re the stuff on concealment heres a link

 

House of Lords - Cave (Respondent) v. Robinson Jarvis & Rolf (A Firm) (Appellants)

 

10. In Brocklesby v Armitage & Guest (Note) [2002] 1 WLR 598 the plaintiff claimed that the defendants, who were a firm of solicitors, had negligently failed to procure his release from his mortgage obligations. The defendants were not accused of any impropriety or deliberate wrongdoing or of having deliberately concealed anything from the plaintiff. They denied that the plaintiff was their client or that they owed him any duty of care, and denied that they had been negligent in any event. They also pleaded that the action was statute-barred. In his reply the plaintiff sought to rely on section 32(2) of the Act, but he did not and could not allege that the defendants were aware of the fact that they had been negligent.

11. Despite the absence of any allegation of deliberate wrongdoing, a two-man Court of Appeal held that the plaintiff had sufficiently pleaded a "deliberate commission of a breach of duty" within the meaning of section 32(2) of the 1980 Act. In the course of an extempore judgment Morritt LJ held that ignorance of the law is no defence, and that it is sufficient to bring the case within the subsection that the defendant should have known that he was acting (or presumably failing to act); it was not necessary that he should also have known that his act (or failure to act) gave rise to a breach of duty. It was sufficient that (at p 605G)

 

    "the commission of the act was deliberate in the sense of being intentional and that that act or omission, as the case may be, did involve a breach of duty whether or not the actor appreciated that legal consequence."

12. On this footing a person who sets out conscientiously to perform his duty but does so in a way which is subsequently found to have been negligent, thus constituting a breach of his duty of care, is liable to be sued without limit of time even where he denies that his conduct was negligent.

 

If you go look at the link theres loads more, not all of which i have read this time, but it might prove useful for those using the limitations act.

 

HTH

 

glenn

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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Its not really our problem to worry about this is it? If they can't claim they didn't know it was unlawful we are better off.

 

'cant' is a funny word, it might be the court wont let state they never knew, on the other hand it might let them use the words but ignore them.

 

Either way i think in some form or other they will dispute the unlawfulness of the charges and if one wants to use the limitations act then one must understand what the defence might argue.

 

If they were to use they didn't know and you hadn't considered whether this mattered or not then it might be the end of the claim for your charges over 6 years old.

 

JMHO

 

Glenn

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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Re the stuff on concealment heres a link

 

House of Lords - Cave (Respondent) v. Robinson Jarvis & Rolf (A Firm) (Appellants)

 

10. In Brocklesby v Armitage & Guest (Note) [2002] 1 WLR 598 the plaintiff claimed that the defendants, who were a firm of solicitors, had negligently failed to procure his release from his mortgage obligations. The defendants were not accused of any impropriety or deliberate wrongdoing or of having deliberately concealed anything from the plaintiff. They denied that the plaintiff was their client or that they owed him any duty of care, and denied that they had been negligent in any event. They also pleaded that the action was statute-barred. In his reply the plaintiff sought to rely on section 32(2) of the Act, but he did not and could not allege that the defendants were aware of the fact that they had been negligent.

11. Despite the absence of any allegation of deliberate wrongdoing, a two-man Court of Appeal held that the plaintiff had sufficiently pleaded a "deliberate commission of a breach of duty" within the meaning of section 32(2) of the 1980 Act. In the course of an extempore judgment Morritt LJ held that ignorance of the law is no defence, and that it is sufficient to bring the case within the subsection that the defendant should have known that he was acting (or presumably failing to act); it was not necessary that he should also have known that his act (or failure to act) gave rise to a breach of duty. It was sufficient that (at p 605G)

  • "the commission of the act was deliberate in the sense of being intentional and that that act or omission, as the case may be, did involve a breach of duty whether or not the actor appreciated that legal consequence."

12. On this footing a person who sets out conscientiously to perform his duty but does so in a way which is subsequently found to have been negligent, thus constituting a breach of his duty of care, is liable to be sued without limit of time even where he denies that his conduct was negligent.

 

If you go look at the link theres loads more, not all of which i have read this time, but it might prove useful for those using the limitations act.

 

HTH

 

glenn

 

All useful stuff Glenn. My understanding then is that in order to establish your right to claim under s321b you don't need to show that the bank intended to conceal the facts, only that it did so and had a duty to know that it shouldn't have concealed.

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If they were to use they didn't know and you hadn't considered whether this mattered or not then it might be the end of the claim for your charges over 6 years old.

 

but it's the courts/judges job to know what they're allowed to use in their defence - not ours - surely.

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but it's the courts/judges job to know what they're allowed to use in their defence - not ours - surely

 

No its your job to argue your case and respond to their defence. The judge will listen to your arguments based on the law you present to him/her. The judge is not going to research your case for you.

 

A useful case Glenn, however, the part you quoted relating to Brocklesby v Armitage was overruled by the House of Lords in Cave v Robinson. They decided it was wrongly decided and therefore deliberate concealment is still needed.

 

All the best

 

Zoot

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Thanks zoot

 

Oh well back to the drawing board then!!!

 

And thanks for making the point about the judges role, whilst we are acting fror ourselves mostly, I think it is dnageours to rely on the court to make out cases for us.

 

GLenn

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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