manchester car finance/CLS finance ltd.fixed sum loan secured with BOS

[postggj]

A bill of sale is secured on a hp or conditional sale agreement, not a fixed sum loan

 

post up the agreement and bos as soon as you can

 

try your local library or internet caffe

[daveegan06]

I will post up BOS as soon as i can, i have been reading through docs and on loan agreement it does say

security

Its a condition of this agreement that upon obtaining legal title to the goods (details set out above) that you enter into a bill of sale in the form provided to you.By way of security for all sums payable under this agreement.

[postggj]

Ime hitting the books on this

 

i think the finance company have done an allmighty big gaff on a fixed sum loan agreement but

 

i need to confirm

[daveegan06]

Really do appreciate your help, i have a strong feeling they will be back over the weekend !!

[raydetinu]

As far as I can tell section 105 of act says, if the security instrument document ( BOS ) is not completed correctly and signed and registered and and a valid copy given to the securitor(debtor ) within 7 days, then it is uenforcesble?

Now 106 appears to say if security instrument is not effective then the act is deemed not to be never in effect.

Also all monies paid under the said agreement are to be repaid.

 

Now I am no lawyer so maybe someone ekse can have a look, but I am quite prepared to accept the the guidelines as in the links.

However we all know anything can be tested in court and the outcomes are always not certain and laws open to interpretation.

 

So on the face of it if BOS not properly executed, signed, registered, copy given to the debtor then they can whistle for it, CCA not valid either ( save for possiblee legal action )

the downside is, if BOS details all correct they can just come and take goods back.

[daveegan06]

Can a BOS be witnessed by the manager of the garage ?,as it is him who has signed for it.

Do the same rules apply the BOS is on a personal loan ?......Thanks

[Hip_Hop]

Right, Daveegan move your car onto private property or better still out of sight completely. The Bill of Sale gave the Lender the possession of your vehicle when you signed the Bill of Sale. On completion of the loan the possession rights revert back to you. If and it is a big if, the Bill of Sale was not registered within 7 days with the High Court, then yes,the Bill of Sale may not be registered. But don't waste your time going down this route.

 

I know from my own experience that the "is it or isn't the Bill of sale valid" is a red herring. You can personally go down to the High Court and for £10 can establish if your BOS has been registered. If it has, whether or not within 7 days is immaterial. How do I know this? I had my car possessed and got judgement for my car to be returned and got compensation from Logbook loans in the process! Read my previous threads if you want to find out more.

 

In the meantime hide your car put it on your private drive way. If they attempt to move it they are committing an offence as they need a court order to remove their possession off of private property! On a public road etc they don't as they can't be penalised by possessing what they already possess by way of a valid BOS.

 

As to whether a manager or other interested party can witness a BOS? Again don't waste your time going down this route. No judge will overturn a BOS that has been registered with the high court. See my previous threads with personal anecdotal back up on this point.

Best of luck

 

Hip_Hop

Edited July 2, 2011 by Hip_Hop

[daveegan06]

Thanks Hip Hop ....the car is parked on a private driveway, the lender did send out someone to reposess the car on friday, he then sent email stating he would get a court order, but may also follow to work, local shops and school and then take the car. we are going to see a solicitor on monday. The car sales and finance people are the same company. It was only on friday we learnt it was a personal loan and not HP. Do you know how long it would take to get a court order ? are we talking hours, days or weeks??.

Also because it has a BOS will that make it a faster process?....need to buy some time to try and get legal advice sorted. We were also not served with a default notice !

[Hip_Hop]

They need a court order for definite if it is on private land. The possession agent only gets paid the real bucks if they secure the vehicle. The Bos if registered would enable them to get a court order if they can present to the judge that you have defaulted on your loan agreement and thereby given them the triggering elements to possess their property, (as previously described in my response above).

 

How long it takes for them to get a court order is beyond my knowledge remit but I suggest you move your car as far away as possible. It obviously doesn't help that you appear to be using a normal name as your login and consequently if they are trolling this site as most do, your ID has been compromised??

 

The problem you have is that you need the car for your children etc and their agents will wait for you to leave your property and then just wheel clamp it so that you can't move it back onto private property.

 

What are you seeing a solicitor for? If the Bill of Sale has been registered and you are in breach I am not sure what a solicitor will be able to accomplish that you can't do for yourself. The Bill of Sale is an archaic legal instrument that most solicitors will not be familiar with.

 

Look at my previous postings, you will get more knowledge before seeking a solicitor at this stage. Just don't let the car off of private property and do not release it without a court order

Edited July 2, 2011 by Hip_Hop

[daveegan06]

going to solicitors to get a time order, as within 6-8 weeks i would be able to clear the amount owed?

[daveegan06]

Ime hitting the books on this

 

i think the finance company have done an allmighty big gaff on a fixed sum loan agreement but

 

i need to confirm

 

 

any joy with those books??

[postggj]

Are we talking of a

 

fixed sum loan agreement secured by bill of sale

have you checked to see if the bill of sale has been registered in the high court yet within 7 days

[daveegan06]

yes it is a fixed sum loan secured with BOS. We are led to belive that they must produce this with seal when they come to reposess?, the agent who called on friday didnt have this.We are sending £40 to see if this has been done. Also on another site same company is under discussion about the Fixed sum agreement not being legal and trading standards have advised them to make no more payments ???....very confused !!

[postggj]

i am awaiting confirmation on this also

 

with a fixed sum loan agreement, the goods belong to you outright

 

so how can a bos be aplied

 

if it was an hp or, condition sale than thats different

 

ime still trying to get confirmation

 

can you post a link to that site please

[daveegan06]

i am awaiting confirmation on this also

 

with a fixed sum loan agreement, the goods belong to you outright

 

so how can a bos be aplied

 

if it was an hp or, condition sale than thats different

 

ime still trying to get confirmation

 

can you post a link to that site please

 

http://www.reviewcentre.com/review782729.html

 

this is the link and has comments underneath.

[raydetinu]

The BOS is the key here! what does it say and has it been coompleted correctly, signed and registered.

the 7 day rule is also relevant?

If agreement refers to the BOS, and BOS not correct then, then BOS and Agreement not valid and uneforceable.

From the act, you can claim monies paid back? I think!

but they still make application to court, which should not succeed. ( depends on judge as usual? )

[daveegan06]

We are taking all the paper work with us to the solicitors tomorrow, we have noticed a few mistakes on it such as dates and figures, hoping he will be able to tell us if its been filled in correctly.

[raydetinu]

so has it been registered?

and dont you mean incorrectly!

[daveegan06]

Hi

dont know yet if it has been registered, and sorry, yes i meant incorrectly. We did ask lender about BOS but he didnt want to give us any info. Really hoping solicitors can find out some more for us. Like i've mentioned in an earlier post, a client of the same company has been advised by trading standards not make anymore payments as there agreement is not legal, hoping ours will be the same !!

[raydetinu]

can you post up agreement so we see reference to loan or BOS?

[Hip_Hop]

On the Bill of Sale, was it or wasn't it registered within 7 days? I repeat my previous assertion.Don't waste your time nor your money!

 

My position and opinion on this is pretty clear cut for logical and practical experience reasons. I will detail for others below.

 

BTW. I know plenty will advocate how a BOS is void for this point or that point but what is not in dispute is that if the the court has registered it, despite it being outside 7 days, it will stick!

 

I know this from personal experience.

 

I had a Bill of Sale that was registered outside of 7 days. When I visited the High Court last Autumn, The clerk at the High Court loosely intimated, (they are not permitted to give any legal advice), that I present myself in front of a Deputy Master, at the High Court, who was in attendance that day. The Clerk saw that the the BOS was clearly stamped outside of 7 days, (9days in fact!). The deputy Master was not able to make an adhoc judgment, there and then, when I saw him, and directed me to make a claim against the other party.

 

When i went back to the clerk, he suggested (again loosely,) that I come back on the following Thursday to see the Master who had extensive Bills of Sales knowledge, as the Deputy, wasn't as sound on that particular archaic legislation.

 

I therefore came back, made an adhoc appearance in front of a Master at the High Court asking for my Bill of Sale to be set aside/made void as it was outside of 7 clear days?

He originally thought I was the Lender (I was suited up), asking for the bill of Sale to be accepted outside of the 7 day point.

 

When he found out I was the borrower, he gave me such short shrift. He wasn't interested at all at the outside 7 day point. He seemed to be implying that a Bill of Sale being just a few days out was neither here nor there and was metaphorically just waving me away...And I am more than able to stand up and express myself clearly.

 

He was simply not interested, whether it was 8,9 ...what ever, days outside. It was registered!

 

There was no discussion. That was that. That from a Master who had vast knowledge in Bill of Sales.

 

Check out OBWANbenonni's postings on his experience of attending the High Court and the amount of BOS's he came across in the ledger at the High Court that were registered outside the 7 days, in many cases many weeks later!

 

Check out on the forum where a BOS has been made void by a judge for being outside of the 7 days and you will find..........NONE.

 

Members will allude to such things but no one will provide any shred of evidence. If they could, you and all would be able to use it as a precedent to get bikes/ cars back that have been possessed.

 

The outside 7 days point doesn't appear to be the panacea that everyone claims it might be. Sure check if it is at least registered but you don't need a solicitor for that.

 

None of the above takes away that I feel for your plight and am empathetic to your situation but solid, practical advice that will move your position forward is more helpful than seeing you go down a blind alley looking for a quick fix..

 

Remember I had my car possessed, got it back within 8 weeks without an injunction and got Logbook loans (another lender of last resort) to compensate me for more than the original loan and interest, to boot. So I do wear the Tee shirt as another Cagger observed.

 

Check out the BOS first at the High Court to see if it is at least registered. Not registered, no triggering element for them to possess....SIMPLES!

 

Obviously, the above is just my opinion with the usual caveats.

[raydetinu]

yep judges are a law unto themselvs!! so to speak.

had all this with TDS compensation, judges just not interested in penlising dodgy land lords.

But agree 7 or 9 makes no odds, wonder what they would say about six months, probably make no diff as long as it was registered eventualy.

so hip hop how did you win your car back then?

[Hip_Hop]

Judges are hesitant to upset the applecart or to turnover a BOS that has been previously registered regardless how many non judges feel, that not to do so is unjust! As to how I won my car back?

I posted news of the judgement and out of court settlement on the CAG links below if it is of interest?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?278885-Judgment-and-Order-Made-Against-NINE-Regions-T-A-Log-Book-Loans!&p=3230014#post3230014

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?284310-Out-of-court-Settlement-with-Nine-Regions-Ltd-T-A-Log-Book-Loans-%28WON!%29&p=3235303#post3235303

 

Hope Dave gets a result on the BOS not being registered, that would be good news.

[raydetinu]

Cool, Hip Hop you are an inspiration to us all.

There are a lot of threads in vehicle repossessions forum that have not gone as well as yours and in fact still ongoung, amazing you got such a quick result.

Fabulous.

[thepalace1]

I also had a BOS car from Manchester Car Finance, it was not registered with HC at all, I took them to small claims court and WON, I also got to keep the vehicle as the bos vas ruled invalid, becasue Manchester Car Finance had the witness sign the BOS before I signed it, and the witness was a member of staff in there office, as far as I remembered this was another duff point as I think if i recall the witness must be impartial to the agreement, but that was not the point in the case, the point was that the witness signed before i did, and not in fromt of me.

 

Also they said they would give me £1000 for my car, which was on the agreement as £1, I won the additional £999 back as well.