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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Can you elaborate on the £5.82 PPI overcharge referred to in your spreadsheet?!

NatWest: seeking unlawful charges + interest incurred as a result of those charges of £4,292.82 and contractual interest (compounded) of £4,559.41. Court claim issued 16.01.08; acknowledgement of service filled by Cobbetts on 30.01.08

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Can you elaborate on the £5.82 PPI overcharge referred to in your spreadsheet?!

 

Morning Fred, that is residual PPI from the previous Loan as it was consolidated as per example 8 of the FSA PPI Handbook. :-)

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Morning Fred, that is residual PPI from the previous Loan as it was consolidated as per example 8 of the FSA PPI Handbook. :-)

 

As I thought but thanks for the confirmation.

 

Having looked at Example 8 in the handbook, the only think I can't quite get my head around is why the 8 per cent simple interest on the 'residual monthly PPI payments' arising from Loan 1 should be calculated as if it equated to an additional PPI payment of £6.78 per month, with interest calculated accordingly, when the loan was refinanced.

 

Surely, when this occurred, the £319.16 PPI overpayment was taken by the bank in one fell swoop - rather than over the duration of the loan - and, that being the case, the 8 per cent simple interest should be calculated from the date of the refinancing rather than from the date of each of the monthly repayments… don't ya reckon?!

 

It may be that I'm missing something and, moreover, I appreciate it won't make all that great a difference in the scheme of things but, at the same time, I'm trying to get things straight in my head and, it seems to me, there's more logic in my approach than the one outlined by the FSA.

NatWest: seeking unlawful charges + interest incurred as a result of those charges of £4,292.82 and contractual interest (compounded) of £4,559.41. Court claim issued 16.01.08; acknowledgement of service filled by Cobbetts on 30.01.08

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I thought the same at first. I think the reason is as the Principal of loan 2 is based upon residual PPI from loan 1. If that was't there Loan 2 would be for less, BUT it does mean the residual PPI has contractual interest added THEN 8% statutory! :-D

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Hi there

 

Just to jump in if I may.

 

What happens at the point of refinancing is that the bank calculate the rebate due for ppi on loan 1 and, in the background, restructure the ppi part of the loan to only take account of the ppi used up to the date of refinance.

 

This means that there is a residual balance on that part of loan 1. In order to pay that balance off, they roll it into loan 2 and you pay it off over the life of the new loan.

 

But because this relates to ppi, you claim it back as normal, i.e. when the payments actually go out of the new loan.

 

Confusing innit?

 

ims

 

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Hi there

 

Just to jump in if I may.

 

What happens at the point of refinancing is that the bank calculate the rebate due for ppi on loan 1 and, in the background, restructure the ppi part of the loan to only take account of the ppi used up to the date of refinance.

 

This means that there is a residual balance on that part of loan 1. In order to pay that balance off, they roll it into loan 2 and you pay it off over the life of the new loan.

 

But because this relates to ppi, you claim it back as normal, i.e. when the payments actually go out of the new loan.

 

Confusing innit?

 

ims

 

Then you need to workout how much of loan 2 before PPI is made up of residual PPI from loan 1.

 

Once you know that then its just a case of applying that percentage to your monthly payments before PPI to find your monthly overcharge.

 

It's when you consolidate AGAIN it can seem to be confusing :-D

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Hi there

 

Just to jump in if I may.

 

What happens at the point of refinancing is that the bank calculate the rebate due for ppi on loan 1 and, in the background, restructure the ppi part of the loan to only take account of the ppi used up to the date of refinance.

 

This means that there is a residual balance on that part of loan 1. In order to pay that balance off, they roll it into loan 2 and you pay it off over the life of the new loan.

 

But because this relates to ppi, you claim it back as normal, i.e. when the payments actually go out of the new loan.

 

Confusing innit?

 

ims

 

Yes it is. Think I'm with you but would appreciate it if you could illustrate your explanation with some figures… ta muchly.

NatWest: seeking unlawful charges + interest incurred as a result of those charges of £4,292.82 and contractual interest (compounded) of £4,559.41. Court claim issued 16.01.08; acknowledgement of service filled by Cobbetts on 30.01.08

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Hi Fred if you have your agreements try putting the info into the spreadsheet I linked earlier, thta might help.

 

I will try and do a walkthrough of my figures later :-)

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Hi Fred if you have your agreements try putting the info into the spreadsheet I linked earlier, thta might help.

 

I will try and do a walkthrough of my figures later :-)

 

Thanks xboxer but I got your figures. Just wasn't 100 per cent sure exactly what ims21 was saying - and, in particular, how they 'restructure the PPI part of the loan to only take account of the PPI used' - which was why I was keen for him to illustrate what he'd said with some figures.

NatWest: seeking unlawful charges + interest incurred as a result of those charges of £4,292.82 and contractual interest (compounded) of £4,559.41. Court claim issued 16.01.08; acknowledgement of service filled by Cobbetts on 30.01.08

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morning all,

 

I've now had confirmation that claims for loans 1 & 3 are being reviewed. Standard letters saying they will try and resolve the problem in 5 days or advise a time frame if they can't, so more letters in 5 days then. :-)

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  • 1 month later...

Subbimg to this thread as I am at the stage of just starting my claim against them. still gathering up info and preparing my claim. We had I reckon about 5 or 6 claims and each one was refinanced into the next so the maths is going to get very complicated doh!

 

I also now remember they made a mistake with the last loan and didn't clear the whole amoun t of the previous loan and took 2 direct debits out of our account the following month. After a big arguement I think they refunded one direct debit then amalgamated the 2 into a third loan-each with PPI so horrible calculations.

 

Good luck with your claims

 

Ali x

Btw I am no expert just give notes based on what I have read on here and other forums/sites, plus my own experiences and investigations.

 

All ccj's now dropped off file, 2 yrs to go to clear file.

All old debts either settled or made unenforcable.

 

RBS MPP-Full offer at 8 wks from first complaint

RBS Overdraft loanguard-full offer at 8 wks from complaint

Citicard ppi-with FOS finally paid 8 months after offer through FOS!

Capital one x2- with FOS

Monument ppi-with FOS

aqua x2 ppi-partialled settled still pushing for the rest

Black horse ppi-offers made and accepted except for one early loan they say no info held-still pushing for payment

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Subbimg to this thread as I am at the stage of just starting my claim against them. still gathering up info and preparing my claim. We had I reckon about 5 or 6 claims and each one was refinanced into the next so the maths is going to get very complicated doh!

 

I also now remember they made a mistake with the last loan and didn't clear the whole amoun t of the previous loan and took 2 direct debits out of our account the following month. After a big arguement I think they refunded one direct debit then amalgamated the 2 into a third loan-each with PPI so horrible calculations.

 

Good luck with your claims

 

Ali x

 

Hi Ali, if you give me shout when you have all your info I'll be able to tweak my spreadsheet to hopefully help you out.

 

If you click on the link on post #25 that will take you to the spreadsheet and should give you some insight to working out consolidated loans.

 

Also read Example 8 (page 119) in the FSA pdf in the stickies http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?305682-FSA-Handbook

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Thanks for that, just trawling through paperwork now lol.

ali x

Btw I am no expert just give notes based on what I have read on here and other forums/sites, plus my own experiences and investigations.

 

All ccj's now dropped off file, 2 yrs to go to clear file.

All old debts either settled or made unenforcable.

 

RBS MPP-Full offer at 8 wks from first complaint

RBS Overdraft loanguard-full offer at 8 wks from complaint

Citicard ppi-with FOS finally paid 8 months after offer through FOS!

Capital one x2- with FOS

Monument ppi-with FOS

aqua x2 ppi-partialled settled still pushing for the rest

Black horse ppi-offers made and accepted except for one early loan they say no info held-still pushing for payment

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  • 1 month later...

Morning All,

Just an update on the saga so far….

Well still heard nothing yet and the 16 weeks are up on the 3rd October 2011.:mad2:

I gave them a phone (recorded) on the 12th September to chase it up, was told after being on hold for 5 minutes that no decision has been reached yet but should hear within the next 2 weeks. Told them that the 16 weeks would soon be up and asked them what date they had for the deadline. They tried to pass off the deadline by saying "if you presume each month has 4 weeks then the 16 weeks will be up on 13th October". I then had to remind them that it is exactly 16 weeks so the date should 3rd October 2011.

So not only do BH seem to have done anything yet but they don't seem to even record the deadline dates on their systems, although I shouldn't be surprised at this.:jaw:

I take it they should be contacting me within the 16 week period and not sending a letter out on the 7th day on the 15th week?

Not exactly filled with confidence that we're not reading any Blackhorse success stories, do they exist?

The only plus side is that while trying to get by charges back (now with the FOS) the Compliance & Risk Executive at BH has admitted in writing that they hold NO notes for my running of the accounts on their system.

Also with the SAR they sent copies of my bank statements and passport that were used for ID purposes when taking out the loans with no sign of any internal notes relating to needs analysis or questionnaires relating to PPI.

Will be interesting to see if/how they reject my claims.:roll:

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Morning All,

 

Well it's now the 3rd of October and 16 weeks (112 days) since BH signed for the delivery of my 3 claims (they were all in the same envelope) and still no decision!

 

So looks like I have not been told their decision WITHIN 16 weeks, so depending on the outcome their failure to adhere to FSA guidelines will be raised!

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Still watching this xboxer, I am still chasing sme stuff for my SAR. But hoping they get it right this time lol. Once I have the paperwork will start my claims.

Have established from partial SAR reply and my old bank statements that we are looking at 9 loans. First 3 all refinanced into each other then paid off. New loan refinanced into another 3 then settled early. then 2 more loans at the end. Should add up to a fair bit in the end when I finally get there lol.

 

Hope you hear soon, and its a positive reply with a nice offer, although with black horse i wouldn't hold my breath.

 

Ali x

Btw I am no expert just give notes based on what I have read on here and other forums/sites, plus my own experiences and investigations.

 

All ccj's now dropped off file, 2 yrs to go to clear file.

All old debts either settled or made unenforcable.

 

RBS MPP-Full offer at 8 wks from first complaint

RBS Overdraft loanguard-full offer at 8 wks from complaint

Citicard ppi-with FOS finally paid 8 months after offer through FOS!

Capital one x2- with FOS

Monument ppi-with FOS

aqua x2 ppi-partialled settled still pushing for the rest

Black horse ppi-offers made and accepted except for one early loan they say no info held-still pushing for payment

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Hi Ali, if your SAR turns up like mine i.e. NO archived internal notes on PPI and matching customers requirements to the product (even the FLA state this!) but archived my ID and bank statements, then I don't know how they could reject a claim with no evidence! But I have always been a glass half full person.

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Just spoke to the FOS and explained the still no response from BH.

 

Yes I should of received BH's response within the 16 week period.

 

So long as I have proof that it has been 16 weeks since BH received my claims then the FOS can take over if I want them to. I did state who it was and the claims are pre-2005 and they didn't seem bothered about that.

 

Told them I will wait a couple of days in case of postal delay and see what BH come back with before I decide my next step.

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Morning All,

Still hadn't heard anything this morning, 16 weeks and 2 days since they signed for my claims, so decided to phone (recorded) BH.

The PPI dedicated number goes through to the Edinburgh call centre now and they don't have access to old accounts. They are given 2 extensions numbers on a daily basis that they can use to contact the PPI claims department (not a public facing department).

So gave my 3 agreement numbers and was put on hold for a couple of minutes.

Apparently all 3 of my claims were reviewed last week and passed to the auditing department for them to review the calculations. This takes 2 -3 days then letters detailing my REFUNDS are sent out my second class post. I should have the letters by the end of this week or the beginning of next week.

The call centre person couldn't give me any details of the refunds, as in amounts or full or partial offer, as they are I quote "actively discouraged from doing this"

I have read other people stating BH offering back the difference of the rebate when consolidating their loans and dismissing the rest of the claim.

So I now wait with baited breath to see what they offer. Either way it's a positive step in the right direction.

BTW all 3 claims are pre 2005.

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Morning All,

 

Ok I got home last night and my letter was waiting for me.

 

The envelope was dated the 3rd October 2011, so posted on the last day of the 16 week extension and I have received it after and not within the 16 week period. So they have gone against the FSA before I even read it!

 

Having read through it and then again BH has once again managed to surprise me with their incompetence!

 

They are satisfied that after checking my eligibility and suitability of the policy, provided me with the appropriate information and ensured that they acted fairly towards me and taking into account any other relevant circumstances or information that may be available, that the only issue is with me receiving a non pro rata rebate when paying the loan off early!

 

They also told me I couldn't go to the FOS and had to go to the FLA but included a FOS handbook!

 

I was half expecting this but then it gets even better!

 

My last loan that was fully paid off in 2006 because they got a CCJ then subsequent charging order, they have listed it as a live loan with arrears! So have also deducted the arrears from the pathetic offer. Additionally even though the ppi on that loan ran for less than half the policy I have no rebate for that loan.

 

I have been offered about £900 where it should be about £7500, about 13% of my claim!

 

Now as I have said before they included a copy of my ID and bank statements (with hand written annotations on it) with my SAR but no information about how they judged ppi to be suitable makes me wonder what evidence they could be using as none seems to exist? This is something I shall be asking them!

 

As far as I'm concerned now that have admitted liability for one part and their continued inability to follow processes and read the information available, it shows that all my complaints are valid!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Another day, another letter, more incompetence!!

Decided to email the CEO due to the mistakes BH made in my offer and got a reply from a supposed BH exec.

Time for another game of count the mistakes.

2 identical letters in the same envelope, date of the email wrong by 6 days and different figures for the first loan.

This is before I get to the content of the letter and their "findings".

Insisting they did not break the FSA guidelines (despite me including a scan of the postmarked envelope with the email), after doing another thorough investigation still saying no mis-selling, the mistake with my final loan was the "wrong calculator being used" and have offered about an extra £500.

So I decided to phone (RECORDED) the BH exec and see what was going on. Despite me including and stating the attachment was my main complaint and the email was a brief overview / cover letter they apparently read it then only answered the email.

I had to push and push to get an answer about what they investigated as there is no longer any records from the point of sale, turns out the "thorough" investigation is………checking my age at the time and my employment!!! With this they feel I was eligible so couldn't have been mis-sold. Also I signed the agreement. That is all they have done for the investigation.

Completely laughable and contemptuous. Went around in circles for a couple of minutes whilst they kept saying "but you signed the agreement", if it was as simple as that there would be no mis-selling scandal.

On the basis of this "investigation" and "evidence" I obviously want to progress this further.

The problem I have is FOS will probably have to go after the underwriters as it's pre 2005 but will take ages to get a result.

Not to sure how strong of a case I would have if I go court route?

Thoughts anyone?

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