Debts over 40k, Cant go bankrupt. What do we do?

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Pengy,

Re the overdraft...first do some sums..

how much remains to pay? / monthly payments?

You have no property, so no chance of them getting it back that way, which stengthens your position.

You need to make a case that it would be in their best interest to accept a reduced F&F on the basis of this and the fact that

it will take x years to repay in your current circumstances. (With the subsequent loss of value of the balance in line with RPI increases) (Assuming no post judgement interest).

You have a one off opportunity to try and settle this debt with the help of a relative, and have given them the first refusal among your creditors in view of the CCJ,but if they are not willing to agree to this within xxxx time then regretfully you will have to withdraw any offer and negotiate instead with the next creditor in line. As mentioned above it needs to be negotiated in writing from the outset, and the final agreement drafted properly including a stipulation that they will not pursue you for the balance and will inform the court that the debt is satisfied within xx days of receiving the payment.

 

Hopefully Sequenci will do the refinements. He's very refined

 

Elsa x

[pengy666]

Hello everyone,

 

I have received a second letter with my postal order returned.

 

This one states the account is no longer dealt with them and its closed.

 

Yet last month they sent us a letter with statement of account~!

 

What do I do about that? Do I ask where my money is going?

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Pengy

They have a duty to pass on the request to whoever IS responsible.

At the very least they should inform you who to send it to.

Which company was it?

 

Elsa x

[Tingy]

Hi Pengy,

 

I'd send it back to them with a letter quoting the following:

 

Section 175 of the Act is clear that if you are acting on behalf of the creditor you are obliged to pass such a request to the creditor.

 

As at the time of the request you were acting on behalf of the creditor (confirmed by the fact that you very recently sent me a statement of account) I would respectfully ask that you fulfil your obligations under Section 175 of the CCA, or failing that return the payment again including the information of the new creditor.

 

If you really want to be cheeky, you could add, "If as you appear to suggest you have written off this alleged debt, then I would be grateful if you could send me written confirmation of this."

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hey Tingy

 

Might be cool to throw in:

I refer you to the OFT's guidance on Section 77-79 Requests:

 

2.5 In any event, the OFT considers that it is an unfair business practice to

seek to take advantage of any confusion, ignorance or difficulty on the

part of the debtor as to whom he or she should send an information

request where there has been a sale of the debt. The debtor has asked

for information and if the recipient considers that another person is the

creditor or owner, the recipient should either inform the debtor or hirer of

who it considers is the correct recipient or pass the request on to that

person for it to be dealt with by them.

[pengy666]

Very good!

 

I like it. I will be forwarding some new letters.

 

My wife has got her cre dit report today.

There are two debts that say "gone away" and one says "settled" for the same thing that is now CCJ? Is that right to be on there?

Edited January 6, 2011 by pengy666

[Tingy]

I thought I'd done well quoting the first bit. Do you know the whole act off by heart? lol

 

Have to confess I've never seen that bit quoted before - should be used a lot more! Copying and pasting into my collectin of useful bits of Acts to use.

 

Thanks,

 

Tingy

[pengy666]

This is my letter

 

Mr and Mrs XXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXX

 

XXXXXXX

XXXXXX

XXXXXX

XXXXXX

 

Date 06/01/11

 

Account number/Reference number XXXXXXXXX/XXXXXXXXXX

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

I recently sent a CCA to you recorded delivery, including a postal order to cover the maximum chargeable fee. This was recently returned to me with a letter which didn’t give me the required information I was seeking.

 

 

Section 175 of the Act is clear that if you are acting on behalf of the creditor you are obliged to pass such a request to the creditor. As at the time of the request you were acting on behalf of the creditor (confirmed by the fact that you very recently sent me a statement of account) I would respectfully ask that you fulfil your obligations under Section 175 of the CCA, or failing that return the payment(s) again including the information of the new creditor. If as you appear to suggest, you have written off this alleged debt, then I would be grateful if you could send me written confirmation of this.

 

 

I refer you to the OFT's guidance on Section 77-79 Requests:

 

“2.5 In any event, the OFT considers that it is an unfair business practice to

seek to take advantage of any confusion, ignorance or difficulty on the

part of the debtor as to whom he or she should send an information

request where there has been a sale of the debt. The debtor has asked

for information and if the recipient considers that another person is the

creditor or owner, the recipient should either inform the debtor or hirer of

who it considers is the correct recipient or passes the request on to that

person for it to be dealt with by them.”

 

Please can you write to me with the required information I requested or inform me of what action you have taken based on my CCA request as per the guidelines as given with the original CCA request.

Yours faithfully

 

Mr XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[Undercover-Elsa]

Excellent, you're getting really good at this Pengy

My only amendment would be the last para, to state:

My original request received by you on xxxx still stands and should be

fulfilled by xxx (12 days from receipt) after which the account will be in dispute.

I therefore suggest that you either pass on this formal request or inform me to whom the request should be directed, in accordance with the OFT Guidelines.

 

 

Tingy, here's the full enchelada, in case you need it:

OFT-section77-79Requests.pdf

[Tingy]

You won't need us soon! Get at least Proof of postage (this is free and all that is required by law - receipt is assumed), but if you really want peace of mind send Recorded Delivery.

[Tingy]

Thanks Elsa - duly saved on memory stick. Some good bedtime reading!

[Undercover-Elsa]

Yep, Tingy, one of the things I love about this site is the way people who originally come on battered and worried gain in confidence and start having a laugh and enjoying taking control. Magic.

Well done you too Tingy

[pengy666]

Darned royal mail.

 

Trying to track the recorded delivery they have clearly received but it isn't available online so I can't get a date for my letter!

[Tingy]

You should be able to - I've done it loads of times. Give me one minute and I'll look up the link.

[Tingy]

you should be able to do it here:

 

http://track.royalmail.com/portal/rm/track?catId=22700601&keyname=track_home

[pengy666]

Think its just the weather/holidays disrupting it.

 

Will go by date of their letter.

[pengy666]

OK

 

Latest correspondence,

 

Capquest have written back. They have put the account on hold for 28 days whilst they obtain the information I requested, They want me to provide proof of payments or correspndence to help with my enquiry? What? Don't understand that. Do I now send a letter of confirmation that I have received the letter or should I tell them the date I expect to receive the CCA? I guess waiting may be best option? They have been given their deadline to respond with request.

 

APEX have written back, they are unable to obtain a copy of the CCA and they will be removing our account from their collection activity, It does say that although my account is un-enforcable it still remains and they may produce a re-constitued copy of my agreement. Do I send a dispute of account letter? Or a letter stating they need to provide information of original creditor or forward my request to them? Or both?

 

I am also wondering wether or not to contact the original creditors of these debts, Want to start getting true debt amounts as I still am unsure of what I owe, the amounts the companies state via D CA's and the amounts on my report differ. Some of the debts aren't on my report

Edited January 8, 2011 by pengy666

[Tingy]

OK

 

Latest correspondence,

 

Capquest have written back. They have put the account on hold for 28 days whilst they obtain the information I requested, They want me to provide proof of payments or correspndence to help with my enquiry? What? Don't understand that. Do I now send a letter of confirmation that I have received the letter or should I tell them the date I expect to receive the CCA? I guess waiting may be best option? They have been given their deadline to respond with request. See what the others say, but I'd say don't send them anything. They know the score with a CCA request. Once the times up they have to stop enforcing the debt. They're trying to get you to acknowledge I suspect in case it's the start of you waiting to make it Statute Barred. How can you help with your enquiry - they either have a CCA agreement or they don't.

 

APEX have written back, they are unable to obtain a copy of the CCA and they will be removing our account from their collection activity, It does say that although my account is un-enforcable it still remains and they may produce a re-constitued copy of my agreement. Do I send a dispute of account letter? Or a letter stating they need to provide information of original creditor or forward my request to them? Or both? Send the Account in Dispute letter (do you know which it is, or do you want it posted up?) This is good news. They can legally re-constitute a copy I believe, but I keep reading different things about what counts as a true copy and what doesn't. Elsa or Seq will let us know!

 

I am also wondering wether or not to contact the original creditors of these debts, Want to start getting true debt amounts as I still am unsure of what I owe, the amounts the companies state via D CA's and the amounts on my report differ. Some of the debts aren't on my report If you choose to do this, and I can understand why you would want to, the best thing to do is send an SAR (template in library or can post up if you shout!) - this costs £10 a throw but gives you everything they hold about you and can be very informative.

 

Hope this helps and hey - what a difference in attitude to a couple of weeks ago eh? Absolutely brilliant! Well done you!

[pengy666]

Thanks Tingy,

 

After reading all the help I knew all these companies would go back to their holes. I have seen the library. I will be printing the account in dispute letter for Apex. If they don't own the debt they aren't going to get a new agreement re-constitued. I will be going straight to the organ grinder with that one. PLUS its only £700 debt. Only issue I see is the letter is for if the timescale is not met (12+2 days) Do I edit this out and ammend it as they closed the account?

 

 

One of the other responses was from na twest via Robinson Way, this is for a big loan. They want account details. They have kept my Postal order. So de I resend CCA request with new information?

Edited January 8, 2011 by pengy666

[pengy666]

I found this

 

Queen’s Bench Division

Published January 25, 2010

Carey v HSBC Bank plc

and Associated Cases

Before Judge Waksman, QC

 

HIS LORDSHIP said that the purpose of his judgment was to give general guidance, in the context of the cases before him, in the hope that that would narrow or eliminate the issues arising in the hundreds of other similar claims issued in county courts around the country, many of which had been stayed pending the outcome in the proceedings before his Lordship. His Lordship reached a number of conclusions on the preliminary issues:

 

First, a section 78 copy had to contain the name and address of the debtor as it was at the time of the execution of the agreement but the creditor could provide those details from whatever source it had of those details and not necessarily from the executed agreement itself.

 

Second, the creditor need not, in complying with section 78, provide a document which would comply, if signed, with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations (SI 1983 No 1553) as to form, as at the date the agreement was made.

 

Third, if an agreement had been varied by the creditor under a unilateral power of variation, the creditor must still provide a copy of the original agreement, as well as the varied terms.

 

Fourth, a breach by a creditor of section 78 did not of itself give rise to an unfair relationship within the meaning of section 140A of the 1974 Act, as inserted by section 19 of the Consumer Credit Act 2006.

 

Fifth, the court had jurisdiction to declare whether in a particular case, there had been a breach of section 78. It would depend on the circumstances of that case as to whether it would be appropriate to grant such a declaration.

 

Section 60 permitted regulations requiring prescribed terms to ensure that a debtor or hirer was made aware of the rights and duties conferred or imposed on him by the agreement, the amount and rate of the total charge for credit in the case of consumer credit agreements, the protection and remedies available, and any other matter which it was desirable for him to be aware of in connection with the agreement.

The following principles were correct in the context of section 61 in assessing whether those prescribed terms were “contained” in an executed agreement:

 

First, it was not sufficient for the piece of paper signed by the debtor merely to cross refer to the prescribed terms without a copy of those terms being supplied to the debtor at the point of signature.

 

Second, a document need not be a single piece of paper.

 

Third, whether several pieces of paper constituted one document was a question of substance not form. In particular, a physical connection between several pieces of paper was not necessary in order for them to constitute one document.

 

Fourth, a physical connection, or one or more physical connections, between several pieces of paper did not necessarily constitute them as one document. Accordingly, where the debtor's signature and the prescribed terms appeared on separate pieces of paper, the questions of whether those pieces of paper together constituted one document was a question of substance and not form.

His Lordship held on the assumed facts of the first claim that the prescribed terms were so contained.

Edited January 8, 2011 by pengy666

[Tingy]

The Carey case made a lt of CCA's which had previously been unenforceable, enforceable. However, not all of them are still.

 

With regard to the Nat West / Robbers Way letter, how old is this debt and when did you last pay into it (sorry if I've already asked that!) - RW usually specialise in debts which are pretty much unenforceable or coming up to being Statute Barred, hence my asking. You do not have to supply them with anything - they should have it. The only reason they might not is if that debt was from a totally different address to where you are now. Assuming that's not the case, don't tell them anything. If they can't find the CCA that is their problem, not yours!

[pengy666]

The problem is I forgot to blinking sign the letter. It was from a previous address, I have always paid everyone from day one. I have never missed a payment. Even my CCJ was paid to eurodebt but they failed to pay them, Thats how it become CCJ'd.

 

Do I just resend a CCA request back to natwest with the original date Just signed?

[Tingy]

I'd resend to Nat West reminding them they already have the £1 fee and ask for all information they hold about you, especially with regards to Address 1,2,3,4,5 how ever many there are.

 

From your name and address they should be able to supply the information.

 

If however you're sure you informed them of your change of address, then I'd not write anything to them. It is not your job to help them claim money from you!

[pengy666]

Ok, I see.

 

Well I got this prepared.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of 04/01/2010, the contents of which have been noted.

 

I have enclosed a copy of the original letter sent to Robinson Way LTD, who has forwarded my request to you as I believe they have no authority to action this debt. I have signed the copy as requested. All information needed is in the account number and reference number as supplied by Robinson way. May I also remind you enclosed with that letter was a postal order for £1:00 which is the maximum fee allowed to be charged for the information I requested, this however was not returned back to me. I believe you have this postal order. If however you do not then it is likely to be held by Robinson way.

 

All relevant information you hold by me is current as I have recently looked at my credit report and you have my previous addresses linked to my current address. I would like to request that you provide me a copy of all information you do hold about me. If you would like to inform me of the action you need from me to assist in you forwarding this information, it is my legal right to request this under the freedom of information act 1998 subject access principles. Subject to certain prescribed conditions, and the limitations set out in the exemptions in Sections 27 to 39, individuals have rights of access to their own personal data, but not to personal data relating to other people

 

I look forward to your response which I request to be made in writing only.

Yours faithfully

Think it covers all angles they are coming back at me with. You are right, it isn't hard to look for the information they need. My letter provided ll account numbers and reference numbers I was given. I think they are just stalling. Edited January 8, 2011 by pengy666

[Tingy]

You may be confusing things with demanding all your personal data held. You can get this by sending the following letter with a payment of £10.00 (this should of course include your CCA agreement - it should be EVERYTHING they hold about you). They have 40 days from the date of receipt in which to respond (40 calendar days NOT working days).

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Data Protection Act 1998 Subject Access Request

Please would you kindly provide full and complete copies of any and all data you hold which relates to me and my entire history with your company. I have enclosed the statutory maximum of £10.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, take note that the enclosed cheque/Postal Order is payment for the fee relating to my Subject Access Request only and not a payment of any other kind or to be used for any other purpose. If you do not require a fee in order to process my Subject Access Request then kindly return or destroy my cheque / PO.

 

For your convenience I have detailed below a list of what I require, although this is not an exhaustive list by any means and is just an example of some of the information I require with regard to any accounts I may have had or may still have with your company.

 

1. Computer screen notes relating to the conduct of my account

2. Computer screen notes relating to transactions that have gone through my account

3. Internal messages or notes relating to the conduct of my account

4. Internal messages or notes relating to transactions that have gone through my account

5. Recordings of any telephone conversations, whether internal or external, relating to my account

6. Copies of any e-mail's, or other electronic communications, whether internal or external, relating my account

7. Copies of letters relating to my account

8. All information relating to litigation or pre-litigation that has taken place on my account

9. A detailed statement of account showing a breakdown of all costs charged, showing in each case the reason for the cost and the actual cost against that item

10. Copies of all reviews conducted relating to my account

11. Copies of all other paperwork relating to my account.

12. Copies of any and all documentation issued to me or left at my property regarding my account

I trust that the above is clear and should you be in any doubt as to your obligations as a Data Controller, then I would advise that you consult your corporate counsel.

 

As detailed above, I have enclosed the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one to which all previous correspondence has been issued.

Yours faithfully

 

 

(Your Name)