Repossession of my bike due to previous owner debt

[OBWanBenoni]

You are correct it does include weekends.

[ST220]

The finance company is now debating that seven days does not include weekends and the date of executionnd so as bill was signed on Friday 10th August then lodged at high court on 20th August it falls on the sixth day.

This is what I believe:

"It is clearly accepted that 'clear days' as opposed to 'days' includes all days with the exclusion of the day of execution and the day of registration but you cannot imply into this definition that clear days means clear working days. The two expressions are completely separate and the wording of the Act makes no mention the exclusion of weekends or to the relevant days only being business or working days "

 

Hi Super,

 

How did you get on at court, did you get your injunction? Also "Clear days" in my opinion is a very sticky point. Some say it's exactly 7 days from execution of the BOS (The day it was signed) including weekends. So if for example the BOS was signed on a monday then 7th day would be the following monday. However theses days do not count public holidays, Xmas, easter etc... As obvioulsy the court wouldn't be open to register the bills. Wouldn't that then suggest that the 7 days dosen't count weekends, as the courts aren't open then either?

 

Don't forget this a very old Law and even some of the most experienced judges have had problems translating it. I think if the 7day matter was come a before a judge today, he would rule that the 7 days wouldn't count the weekend. But thats just my opinion.

[Hip_Hop]

SuperOli,

 

I am so sorry to hear how unsympathetically your plight has been treated by the judge in this matter. As I have mentioned previously,. Judges are strange creatures. They do not like to make rulings nor judgments where the other party are not present, if they can help it. There are always exceptions, but generally it is surprising how many are hesitant to make such definitive orders with just one party present.

 

On the Bill of Sale, was it or wasn't it registered within 7 days? Don't waste your time.

 

My position and opinion on this is pretty clear cut for logical and practical experience reasons. I will detail for others below.

 

I know plenty will advocate how a BOS is void for this point or that point but what is not in dispute is that the court has registered it despite it being outside 7 days.

 

I know this from personal experience.

 

I too had a Bill of Sale that was registered outside of 7 days. The clerk at the High Court loosely advised (they are not permitted to give any legal advice), that I present myself in front of Deputy Master who was in attendance that day, when I saw that the BOS was clearly stamped outside of 7 days. The deputy Master was not able to make an adhoc judgment, there and then, telling me to make a claim against the other party.

 

When i went back to the clerk, he suggested (again loosely,) that I come back on the following Thursday to see the Master who had extensive Bills of Sales knowledge, as the Deputy, wasn't as sound on that particular archaic legislation.

 

I therefore came back, made an adhoc appearance in front of a Master at the High Court asking for my Bill of Sale to be set aside/made void?.

He originally thought I was the Lender (I was suited up), asking for the bill of Sale to be accepted outside of the 7 day point.

 

When he found out I was the borrower, he gave me such short shrift. He wasn't interested at all at the outside 7 day point. He seemed to be implying that a Bill of Sale being just a few days out was neither here nor there and was metaphorically just waving me away...And I am more than able to stand up and express myself clearly.

 

He was simply not interested, whether it was 8,9 ...what ever, days outside. It was registered!

 

There was no discussion. That was that. That from a Master who had vast knowledge in Bill of Sales.

 

Check out OBWANbenonni's postings on his experience of attending the High Court and the amount of BOS's he came across in the ledger that were registered outside the 7 days.

 

Check out on the forum where a BOS has been made void by a judge for being outside of the 7 days and you will find..........NONE.

 

Members will allude to such things but no one will provide any shred of evidence. If they could, you and all would be able to use it as a precedent to get your bike/ our cars back back.

 

All Iam suggesting is the outside 7 days point doesn't appear to be the panacea that everyone claims it should be.

 

None of the above takes away that I feel for your plight and am empathetic to your situation. I hope that other 3rd party victims can step in and offer solid, practical advice that will move your position forward.

 

My thoughts are with you.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Hip_Hop

[superoli]

This a summary of where I am now

At 6:30 am on 16/11 bailiffs arrive at my house saying they have come to repossess the bike as finance is outstanding from the first owner. I called the police who basically gave me the wrong advice and said if I stop them taking it, I would be arrested for a breach of peace. This in fact is wrong and once it’s not on the road ( it was in my garden) they had no right to take it. To end a long story short the bike has been taken and I now have no bike that I paid £6,100 for.

In addition they are parts on the bike that are mine that they would not let me take off (worth about £1,300) I have the original standard parts

13/03/2007 1st owner buys from Motorcycle World Northampton

10/08/2007 1st owner takes out finance

12/10/2007 Bike is sold back to Motorcycle world who do an HPI check with Experian that comes up clear (I have a copy)

03/11/2007 2nd owner buys from Motorcycle World

03/08/2008 I buy from 2nd owner

01/2010 finance company registers interest in vehicle two years and two months later (no law against this)

16/11/2010 bailiffs seize my bike

I am now stuffed as finance company has legal title to bike and I can’t claim on Experian because the 24 months cover for this happening has expired

So basically I have lost a bike valued at about £5,500 and my only options are to sue the 2nd owner (who is innocent) who will then sue motorcycle world (also innocent) who will then sue the first owner who is a deadbeat.

contest on registration of BOS (which as stated before is probably a waste of time)

ps I was using my girlfriends scooter as bike has been taken and got knocked off last night by a car and its a write off ...................can you believe it. So no Bike and no scooter.

[Hip_Hop]

ps I was using my girlfriends scooter as bike has been taken and got knocked off last night by a car and its a write off ...................can you believe it. So no Bike and no scooter.

 

OMG, what bad luck you are having! I'd recommend a Robin Reliant if this matter wasn't so serious.

 

I jest, you know that, as you couldn't make this up.

 

Hopefully Guys like OBwanBenonni whose experience of being a 3rd party victim , and fairly well advanced in their own messy journey, as well as others who have been there and worn the T Shirts, will be along to offer more practical advice and support, when they are in a position to do so. Soon, I hope.

 

In the interim, keep your chin up......and at least your helmet permanently on!

Edited November 24, 2010 by Hip_Hop

[OBWanBenoni]

You are having a pretty bad time

 

In your scenario I am the 2nd owner, the 3rd owner decided to pay the loan company and now she is suing me and I am supposed to sue the 1st owner who took out the loan.

 

However mine isn't quite the same as the first owner put the loan on the vehicle a year after I sold it to the 3rd owner. The loan company did no checks at all to see if he actually owned the vehicle when they gave him the money, he had a 2nd copy of the V5. The 3rd owner also paid the loan off knowing that it was put on the vehicle after she bought it - but she still paid.

 

The 1st owner has a string of CCJs against him and is complete ****. I also did a vehicle check and mine came back clean - but that was 5 years ago so can't claim on that either.

 

I don't know what to say really, I would check with the supreme court that this is the only loan that he has put on the bike as you could be in the same position as me.

 

The only people who win in this situation are the lawyers - how many court cases to get to the true culprit?

[superoli]

Update 14/12/2010

The finance company has gone to ground and have not answered one letter email or phone call for a week and half. So sent a letter saying that I would be going to court to issue proceeding for damages, legal costs etc. All of sudden they reply saying they they will reply by this Wednesday, hmmmmmmmm lets see what happens.

[Hip_Hop]

Any further feedback from the loan company?

[superoli]

funnily enough...........not a dam thing!

My solictior sent another email and letter yesterday asking for a response.......looks like court here I come

[Surfer01]

Good luck!

[jas1304]

'subbing' - please ignore this post

[drakhan]

On 7/0/08 I bought my Honda Fireblade (first registered 13/03/07 ) from a private seller (second owner).... he had bought the bike on 03/11/2007 from Honda Avondale

At 6:30 am 16/11 bailiffs arrive at my house saying they have come to repossess the bike as finance is outstanding from the first owner. I called the police who basically gave me the wrong advice and said if I stop them taking it, I would be arrested for a breach of peace. This in fact is wrong and once it’s not on the road ( it was in my garden) they had no right to take it. To end a long story short the bike has been taken and I now have no bike that I paid £6,100 for.

 

The bailiffs advised me that to recover the money I would need to take civil action against the person who sold me the bike even though he was not the person who has the finance outstanding and he would in turn need to take action against the first owner.

 

In addition they are parts on the bike that are mine that they would not let me take off (worth about £1,300) I have original standard parts

Now I am trying to sort what the hell to do !!!

I got the bill of sale from the finance company FONT]

1st owner 13/03/2007 buys from Avondale Honda

Bike is returned to Avondale (date to be confirmed) who say they are positive they did a HPI check and will get certificate to me.

2nd owner 03/11/2007 buys from Avondale Honda

3rd owner 03/08/2008 I buy from 2nd owner

The finance company is now trying to sell me my own bike back for £4,000...

Honda are getting the HPI certficate and will send it to me as they believe the 1st owner got the loan fraudently.

In addition from looking at the bill of sale it looks like the loan should have been registered by the 17th August but to me it looks like it got regiatered on 21st August.....am I correct ?

 

 

Firstly, the bailiffs couldnt take the bike without permission as its theft.

Secondly you should have asked the police for their badge numbers and made an official complaint and also suggested they be better trained.

Thirdly, sue the finance company for aiding and abetting theft along with the bailiffs.

Fourthly, sue the person who sold you the bike and Fifthly, next time do an HPI check on the bike before you buy it.

[Hip_Hop]

Firstly, the bailiffs couldnt take the bike without permission as its theft.

Secondly you should have asked the police for their badge numbers and made an official complaint and also suggested they be better trained.

Thirdly, sue the finance company for aiding and abetting theft along with the bailiffs.

Fourthly, sue the person who sold you the bike and Fifthly, next time do an HPI check on the bike before you buy it.

 

With respect Drakhan, why have you elected to resurrect SuperOli's thread which the original poster hasn't updated since 2010?

 

The incident was a civil matter so no taking of "Badge numbers" would have resulted in any change of outcome as far as the police are concerned, (or unconcerned as is their way with civil matters).Therefore no retraining is required

 

The bike had been purchased over 2 years previously before it was possessed by the finance/loan company who had a valid Bill of Sale so it is not theft pe se.

 

They were not bailiffs but agents who were acting on instructions from the owners of the bike (the loan company with the valid Bill of Sale). Any HPI check when he purchased the bike would have been over 2 years old in any case when the bike was possessed, so not sure if it would have made any real difference to whom has a valid legal claim to being the possessor of the bike when a valid Bill of Sale is held by one of the partie IMHO

 

This was an unfortunate set of circumstances that resulted in Superoli, an innocent third partie losing their bike, it is in poor taste that you have decided to trivialize it by your resurrecting it with supercilious suggestions so long after the original posting and the loss of a very expensive personal item by the original poster.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Hip_Hop

[drakhan]

With respect Drakhan, why have you elected to resurrected SuperOli's thread which the original poster hasn't updated since 2010?

 

The incident was a civil matter so no taking of "Badge numbers" would have resulted in any change of outcome as far as the police are concerned, (or unconcerned as is their way with civil matters).Therefore no retraining is required

 

The bike had been purchased over 2 years previously before it was possessed by the finance/loan company who had a valid Bill of Sale so it is not theft pe se.

 

They were not bailiffs but agents who were acting on instructions from the owners of the bike (the loan company with the valid Bill of Sale). Any HPI check when he purchased the bike would have been over 2 years old in any case when the bike was possessed, so not sure if it would have made any real difference to whom has a valid legal claim to being the possessor of the bike when a valid Bill of Sale is held by one of the partie IMHO

 

This was an unfortunate set of circumstances that resulted in Superoli, an innocent third partie losing their bike, it is in poor taste that you have decided to trivialize it by your resurrecting it with supercilious suggestions so long after the original posting and the loss of a very expensive personal item by the original poster.

 

 

I didn't look at the dates.

As for the police i would have taken their badge numbers. If its a civil matter why then did they threaten to arrest him for breach of the peace. They were ignorant of the facts so should have told the ones who came to take the bike to go away or they should not have interfered at all. THEY made it a criminal matter with threats of arrest. THEY aided and abetted the collectors who must have known that they had no right to take the bike.

The loan company had no right to take the bike.. The loan company could only legally pursue the original owner.

They just hoped that the new owner would fall for it and they did.

 

Also, i may have posted it late because not looking at dates but there are others who may read the posts OK.

[Hip_Hop]

I didn't look at the dates.

OK

 

 

As for the police i would have taken their badge numbers. If its a civil matter why then did they threaten to arrest him for breach of the peace.

Because it is a civil matter and if you are causing a a breach of the peace than they are entitled to warn that a breach could result in the offending partie being arrested for such a breach after sufficient warning being made.

 

They were ignorant of the facts so should have told the ones who came to take the bike to go away or they should not have interfered at all.

If a valid Bill of Sale is presented than the police are not acting in ignorance and the civil matter is not made a criminal matter with threats of arrest.

 

THEY aided and abetted the collectors who must have known that they had no right to take the bike.

The loan company had no right to take the bike.. The loan company could only legally pursue the original owner.

They just hoped that the new owner would fall for it and they did

Unfortunately Drakhan if only situations like this were as easy to deal with as you suggest in your response but alas in the world of Bills of Sales and possessions of property using such archaic legal instruments they are not.

The only solution that was available to Superoli was to pursue the collection agents and loan company through the courts as any alternative to handing the keys over would have resulted in him being arrested for breach of the peace whether you agree or disagree. I can talk from experience that although you obviously mean well, it is emotionally driven and has no real legal basis.IMHO

 

Please note that I talk from experience as one who has had their vehicle possessed using a Bill of Sale, and pursued a claim through the courts and won compensation and the return of my Jaguar, so with respect, I do feel I can talk with a great deal of authority on this matter.

 

Also, i may have posted it late because not looking at dates but there are others who may read the posts OK.

If only to serve to others that there are no simple solutions to those that use archaic legal instruments like Bills of Sales, where innocent 3rd parties can be unfairly relieved of their personal property by ruthless corporate loan companies? Than yes it serves a use, but no more than that IMHO

I only hope that Superoli was able to get his bike back, but assume alas, that the lack of any update to this, his thread may suggest otherwise?

Edited April 10, 2012 by Hip_Hop