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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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Abbey SPO - want to set it aside


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  • 2 months later...
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update ....

 

it got passed to an adjudicator who said:

 

1. Mortgage arrears charges are NOT WITHIN THEIR REMIT TO INVESTIGATE, so he'll look at the overall treatment the bank handed out to me.

2. He considers arrears charges to be fair because they're set at a market rate.

3. The charges were considered fair by the test case last year (same principle).

4. He can't look at the mortgage being sold through the shadow banking system.

5. The bank treated me fairly because it's my fault i went into arrears.

6. He won't look at the legal fees or the solicitor's actions.

7. The FSA fines and report on GMAC/Kensington etc had no impact on my complaint as those companies were fined for mistreating customers and not for charging an arrears fee, and my bank (major high street bank) has not had any fines imposed or been investigated.

 

I didn't agree with his findings and asked him to explain:

 

1. How he can call the charges fair without having investigated their actual cost (with a breakdown), especially if he says they're outside his remit.

2. Where it says they can't look at arrears charges (he pointed me to the FSA Handbook).

3. When did the test case look at mortgage account T's and C's or investigate their fees.

4. The solicitor was instructed by the bank as an agent and thus the bank is responsible for their actions.

5. Why does the bank sign its letters with "as administrator". And for whom?

 

And that if the charges are outside their remit then he cannot refer to them in his decision, not a single point, since its not something he can look at and i don't want his personal opinion on these charges. That would make his decision a bit harder to write up since it all consists of arrears charges!

 

I didn't get any answers from him. He's now left the fos and it will be allocated to another adjudicator.

 

Any advice for me and others taking arrears charges to the FOS and faced with this sort of response?

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Oh for goodness sake.

 

My gut feel is to say just take them to court, but I've flagged this up for the site team for ideas and opinions.

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Yep I spotted after I posted that this had provoked some discussion there. Must confess - I'm confused by FOS too.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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I'm confused by FOS too.

 

But what can i do about it?

 

Thankfully i didn't get a decision in writing though the adjudicator did call me many times to discuss his assessment. When i questioned everything he was saying he went back to look at it again and again, though he seemed to know what he was talking about by quoting various things. But thanks to this and other forums I'm not so naive on the matter as well!

 

His main statement was that the charges haven't been assessed and deemed unfair by a court so everything else doesn't apply, not the FSA, not UTCCRs, nothing.

 

Now i find out he's left so will have to wait for it to go to another adjudicator, who may or may not use the last one's assessment.

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Well if you get an assessment along the lines of what this guy has said, there are so many holes in it I would suggest an appeal, although there is still the option of court to claim charges.

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Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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there is still the option of court to claim charges.

 

I've been advised not to do that as the bank may be able to claim their legal fees, even if they concede and refund all charges, because it says so in the agreement. Unfair as it seems and possibly a clause to be assessed under UTCCR.

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Well if you get an assessment along the lines of what this guy has said, there are so many holes in it I would suggest an appeal.

 

I'll have to wait and see. I waited many months for it to be allocated to an adjudicator and then assessed so may have to wait a while again, though of course its not my fault their adjudicator left.

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I've been advised not to do that as the bank may be able to claim their legal fees, even if they concede and refund all charges, because it says so in the agreement. Unfair as it seems and possibly a clause to be assessed under UTCCR.

 

There is a risk with any court action, although if it's under £5k it will probably in the small claims track when each side bears their own costs. If they want to concede and keep legal fees then just carry on to court and let the judge decide.

 

If it's over £5k there is certainly the risk of costs should you lose, but the supreme court judgment on bank charges, as you know, had nothing at all to do with mortgage charges. If you win you can claim your own costs back.

 

It may be worth checking out the CPUT regulations to see if there's anything in them that would help your case.

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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It may be worth checking out the CPUT regulations to see if there's anything in them that would help your case.

 

Like many others, mine is just a normal case of a consumer wanting penalty charges refunded. Why is this successful for some and so hard for me?

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  • 2 months later...

had a decision again from a second adjudicator (first one left) but it's much the same as before, except that the bank 'seems' to have provided a breakdown which shows their costs as £35+ a go (i'd like to see it!) and the charges are therefore fair.

 

no comment on FSA 12.4.1R, the FSA fines on some mortgage lenders' unfair treatment of customers and that the UTCCR reg 5 and 6 cannot be used on a price basis and that i agreed to the T's and C's.

 

i don't understand why mortgage arrears charges are being seen like personal current account overdraft charges and not like credit card default charges with which they bear a resemblance (being charged for not making an agreed monthly payment).

 

i don't know what the FOS are doing but it doesn't seem right.

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should i now take this to the court or wait for an Ombudsman decision (which will probably not change much).

 

i can work out the charges from my statements but not the cumulative interest on each charge as there have been different interest rates over the years. The bank won't send me this info, not even through the FOS, and i am told to make a DSAR request with the bank. So i wouldn't know what amount to claim.

 

can anyone help me with a likely POC?

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Help us to keep on helping

Please consider making a donation, however small, if you have benefited from advice on the forums

 

 

This site is run solely on donations

 

My advice is based on my opinion and experience only. It is not to be taken as legal advice - if you are unsure you should seek professional help.

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Have you read this by Bankfodder?

 

Yes, i read that, but the FOS say none of it applies to my complaint.

 

2 FOS adjudicators have said:

 

the charges are fair because:

 

1. the bank has provided a breakdown

2. i agreed to the T's and C's

3. the bank applied them because of my conduct of the account (i missed payments)

4. reg 5 and 6 of the UTCCR do not apply as i can't challenge the charges on price

5. i cannot use s.140 of CCA (unfair relationship)

6. the FSA fines on other lenders are not relevant as they haven't fined my lender

7. the test case on personal account overdraft charges said all such charges are fair

8. they're set at a market rate

9. initially they said they do not investigate arrears mortgage charges

 

and much more, but the above are the main points.

 

so how are others getting their arrears charges back through the FOS?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't think there's any new advice or info I can think of.

 

Just a few questions though -

 

Who is the lender?

 

Is this a first or second mortgage?

 

When was it taken out?

 

Do you know if it's regulated?

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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it's Abbey/Santander ....

Is this why you think it's been securitised?

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Is this why you think it's been securitised?

 

No, not because of the bank name, but because I know. They sign all their letters with "as administrator". And I know they use the Holmes brand to securitise .....

 

But apart from that, I believe i'm still entitled to receive a refund of arrears fees UNLESS the bank's true costs are £35+ (and i don't believe they are).

 

And the litigation referral and monitoring fees which the bank and solicitor have BOTH been applying.

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Must admit I haven't got my head around the whole securitisation issue. I'll see if I can find someone with more knowledge of this to take a look.

 

Regarding the charges, just because FOS have turned you down doesn't mean that this isn't something that you can't claim via the court.

 

What's happening at the moment regarding possession proceedings?

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Must admit I haven't got my head around the whole securitisation issue. I'll see if I can find someone with more knowledge of this to take a look.

 

Regarding the charges, just because FOS have turned you down doesn't mean that this isn't something that you can't claim via the court.

 

What's happening at the moment regarding possession proceedings?

 

The securitisation issue's been well discussed and the general consensus is that it's legal in the UK and the bank do nothing wrong. It's been challenged in the 'Pender' case.

 

On charges, the FOS won't send me any info, not a list of charges or other fees, not the breakdown etc. They want me to do a DSAR request if i want any info.

 

I've asked the adjudicator to review his findings, especially on reg 5 and 6 of UTCCR. This is because i say that charges are not a subject matter of the contract or in return for any service by the bank but a penalty charge following a breach of contract (to pay the monthly mortgage payment) and that reg 6(2) does not exclude any assessment under reg 5 unless the contract is in PIL under reg 7(1) and/or the term was individually negotiated. Under reg 5(4) the bank would need to prove this. So he needs to assess the whole contract under PIL. This is how the test case of 2009 proceeded and why the banks changed their terms and conditions in 2008 for the PIL assessment.

 

But in the end the FOS might say the bank has provided a breakdown so the charges are fair.

 

Much of what else i asked to be looked at, such as the bank/solicitor making me pay arrears charges (whether fair or not) as part of the arrears balance and the litigation/monitoring fees, have not been looked at.

 

There's no proceedings at the moment as they're on hold while the complaint is at the FOS. When/if the bank issue these again, i would dispute the balance as being wrong because of arrears charges and litigation/monitoring fees and that the bank is to provide a breakdown, or to ask for the contract to be assessed under PIL and s.140A of CCA.

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Well I guess that's one benefit of the FOS taking their own sweet time.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Well I guess that's one benefit of the FOS taking their own sweet time.

 

As i see it, the bank owe me more in charges and fees than i owe them in arrears.

 

And they haven't charges any arrears charges or other fees while the case is at the FOS so if there's a true cost of £35+ per month (as they're saying), are they losing money by not charging me? Or are they being 'nice'?

 

They insist they're right and the FOS agrees with them so why haven't they continued charging until told otherwise?

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There were arguments that until the legality of bank charges was decided they shouldn't be added. It didn't carry much weight but maybe they're waiting for the final outcome of FOS. I have no idea what they have to do extra each month you're apparently in arrears though.

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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