Help please with Virgin/ MBNA CCA online application - legal?

[TinkerPink]

Hi all,

 

I'm very new to this site but read some great threads on how to request my CCA from Virgin/MBNA. I used the letter templates to some success: I sent the 1st request which they didn't respond to in 12 working days. So I sent the 2nd letter saying the account was in dispute until they sent me the CCA. The letters crossed in the post and they have since sent me:

1. a copy of my executed agreement (this I need help with!)
   
2. up to date T&Cs (irrelevant as luckily I still have the original T&Cs)
   
3. copy of most recent statement (irrelevant)
   

Re. the copy of my CCA: it appears I applied online back in July 2006 (I can't remember if I did!) and they have sent a printed typed version of the T&Cs followed by tick boxes that apparently legally represent my signature (I'm aware the CC Order 2004 allowed signatures to be replaced by a tick box for online applications).

 

However, I'm unsure whether I actually saw these T&Cs online (as it was so long ago) and then ticked the box saying I agreed to them. This printed version could have been put together by them to show that the prescribed terms and my signature (tick box) were all in the same document (which is a requirement under s61(1) CCA 1974 of being 'properly executed')?! Has anyone else had similar sent to them??

 

Also this typed CCA appears to show all the correct prescribed terms needed such as correct heading, my name/address, APR, rates, right to cancel etc. Although I'm not sure about the credit limit as it says:

 

1 Key Financial Information

1a We will choose your credit limit and tell you what it is. We may vary it at any time and write to let you know

 

Does this constitute the correct execution of a 'credit limit' seeing as there is no specific amount stated?

 

It does look suspicious to me because a) its printed and could have been compiled by them and b) my original T&Cs (that I must have been sent after applying) 1) DOESN'T show my address, 2) has no credit limit (just the same sentence as above), and 3) has no signature (mine) in the same document. So I'm not sure whether they are trying to pull the wool over my eyes or if the CCA was indeed properly executed online and followed by non properly executed T&Cs.

 

If I were to refer to my original T&Cs document then I think I could deem the CCA unenforceable for the 3 reasons listed above. If so, I'm not sure what letter to write to them next telling them so (can anyone direct me to a template?)

 

But if anyone is knowledgeable about these MBNA responses to CCA requests for online appllications (and whether they are actually properly executed) your advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

I am shortly due a payment but whilst I'm trying to determine my stance I'm reluctant to pay them (in addition not being able to afford to pay them!). I'm sure they'll be catching up with me soon though...

 

Look forward to hearing from anyone who can help!

 

Thanks so much

[slick132]

Hi TP - looking in as promised.

 

I'm not experienced with MBNA credit agreements but the Term they show about your credit agreement ( section 1a ) is acceptable for dealing with the setting and varying of your account credit limit.

 

A huge debate about what is acceptable as a response to a CCA request is being discussed here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/240186-dissecting-manchester-test-case-new-post.html but it's a huge thread. The first few pages may make useful reading, and also the posts over the last few days.

 

It dosen't cover on-line applications, but these are dealt with in Link No5 in my signature.

 

If you don't make the required payments to your a/c, you will get chased quickly and possibly have adverse data put on your credit records. So don't stop paying until you have researched fully and decided on how to proceed.

 

[Akamas]

Hi TinkerPink, did they send you the same documents as they sent me? Please check my thread here to compare:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/251104-virgin-mbna-mastercard-credit.html

 

I am interested to see if anyone else has contested this agreement.

[TinkerPink]

Hi Slick,

 

Thanks for your quick reply!

 

OK so it seems the credit limit is OK, but I'll check out the thread you've listed to find out more...

 

Hi Abamas,

 

Thanks for your reply!

 

Yes, the CCA you've posted on your thread is exactly what they've sent me!

 

As mentioned, I'm unsure whether I actually saw these T&Cs online (as it was so long ago!). This printed version could have been put together by them to show that the prescribed terms and my signature (tick box) were all in the same document?! How could I possibly find out what I actually saw when I applied??

 

Also, my original T&Cs that I have in my possession is different to the typed CCA they've recently sent in the post, which is what they've said I signed upto online, which makes me suspicious! As mentioned, my original T&Cs DOESN'T show my address and has no signature in the same document.

 

I'm not sure what to do next as I'm struggling to pay and I'm sure the defaults are looming

 

Any further advice/ similar situations greatly appreciated!

[Akamas]

Bonjourno TinkerPink!

 

I am in the same boat with regards to not being sure what was presented to me when I signed up. Unfortunately I am beginning to feel that there is not much I can do due to the changes in the law allowing tick boxes as signatures, and re-constituted copies of an agreement being acceptable as a 'true copy' of an agreement. In my oppinion the law has been so shifted recently in favour of lenders that I find it very worrying! Another reason to emigrate if you ask me...

 

Remember that even if you cannot challenge this agreement you can still make an offer for a full and final settlement. The closer you get to defaulting, the more desperate the creditor will be to recover at least some of the debt. If you apply knowledge of the fractional banking system here (that lenders only actually have approx 10% of reserves to cover all credit issued) it is no surprise when ex-employees of banks like MBNA post information on forums stating that creditors generally sell defaulted debts to DCAs at around 10p-12p per pound! The debt was conjoured up out of thin air, and in reality the creditor never had the funds to lend in the first place!

 

This all means that if you play the long game and make them believe that they will not recover anything, and then out of the blue make them an offer of about 20%-25% of the total debt as a FULL AND FINAL SETTLEMENT they will most likely accept it, as it is roughly double what they would get from selling the debt. There are many pitfalls to this approach to watch out for though, especially in the wording of the offers they make. They will often make offers of 'partial settlement' and then chase the remaining debt at a later stage or even sell it to a debt collection agency. Always remember that you are dealing with the lowest and sneakiest forms of businesses in existence, they will always try to mislead you if they have the option available and it will benefit them to do so. MBNA for example will try to make you believe they have sold the debt to a collector as a final scare tactic, but this bogus DCA is actually part of MBNA and their employees work in the same office as the MBNA collections department! There are some interesting posts on here about all this, so try to read through as many as possible to get some idea of how to tackle this. You are always in a stronger position to negotiate when you own no properties (either completely or partially) and have little or no goods of value in your name, as the lender will not have the option of chasing a charging order etc.

 

I wish I could help more, but I am relatively new to this and up to my ears in debt from different lenders. Two of the three have bad agreements, but this MBNA one is proving a little more tricky. All my time and energy is being spent on my financial problems and it is screwing up the rest of my life. I will still try to post more on this forum, if/when I learn anything new that is relevant to this agreement. Good luck and please report any developments.