HFC piles on the pressure

[monkeymad1]

Re. PPI--I refer you back to an earlier post of mine suggesting you have a look at post #14 onwards

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/211244-25-days-late-3-a.html

 

Why not remove personal details and post up the CCA that you received so that experienced caggers can advise on it.

Middenmess,

 

I have just looked at your thread as suggested and must confess that I have a headache!!!!

 

I gather that notwithstanding the fact that I made a previous claim for redundancy, I can still make a claim for misselling on the basis that the PPI agreement was unlawful in any event.

 

I am still awaiting a reply from HFC / Beneficial Bank to my SAR. It will be interesting to see what they have to say next. In the meantime, I will try and post a copy of the credit agreement within the next few days.

[middenmess]

I wish I was 25 years younger so that my brain was more receptive to all the information available on this site as I too get a headache trying to take it all in [and trying to retain it!]

 

Noomill's threads are informative on PPI as are several others but I don't think I've found one yet where PPI has been successfully claimed back -with interest- after a claim [payout] has been made.

 

Some threads have said make the claim for PPI + interest less whatever you've been paid out,others say claim for all and let the seller respond with their interpretation.

 

I also have the argument that during those periods when you are in receipt of monthly payments you are still being charged the monthly premium which I think is wrong.

 

For example a long term illness of one year will see the entire balance of your account paid off-assuming that you do not use the card during this time,so what benefit would there be in paying every month a PPI premium?

 

Your first monthly charge for PPI has paid for the cover of the amount outstanding that you are claiming against--if it hasn't then why are you being paid out?

 

I haven't made a claim yet as I'm waiting to see what other mistakes the cc companies make after sending me ineffective D/N's.

 

Making a claim costs only your time and a stamp.

 

They have to reply to you and the arguments that you receive against your claim will indicate the way in which to proceed.

[pompeyfaith]

I wish I was 25 years younger so that my brain was more receptive to all the information available on this site as I too get a headache trying to take it all in [and trying to retain it!]

 

I know how you feel very well, although with me it is the age that is the problem, But the stoke I had my short term memory is very poor thank god for bookmarks because if it was not for those I'd be totally lost.

 

PF

[monkeymad1]

Result (sort of!!!) - I have received a letter from HFC in reply to my request for repayment of PPI which was added to my loan. (I used, slightly amended, the fantastic letter that was posted by Pompeyfaith in her thread - thanx Pompey!). Basically HFC have agreed to make an ex gratia payment (without accepting liability!!!) in settlement of my complaint. Their offer includes statutory interest at 8%. However as I had made a claim for payment of insurance, they want to deduct the amount paid out under the claim from the settlement figure and issue me with a new credit agreement under their current terms! This will mean what they have given me in one hand, they will take with the other!!

 

I will try and post their letter asap so advice and comment.

[dx100uk]

they can certainly deduct the payments they made for your claim before.

but.

 

THEY CANNOT force you to sign another agreement, that is against FOS guide lines and they know it.

 

HFC will try every trick in the book , they will also take ARREARS to date from your payout so watch out for that.

 

also CHECK THEIR FIGURES

with a find tooth comb!!

 

they are slippery customers!! the 8% should be calculated from the date of their 'non gratia payment', as i take it you did not include a spreadsheet? so they cannot take it as 'your' complaint date.

 

dx

post that letter very interested.....

[monkeymad1]

dx100uk, thanks for the advice. I will try and post the letter that I received from HFC for comments.

[monkeymad1]

Hi everyone,

 

I am having problems uploading a copy of the PPI offer letter from HFC so I thought that I would quote their relevant replies for comment:

 

" I have now completed my investigation into the issues that you have raised. Whilst I do not accept the allegations you have set out, on this occasion, without any admission of liability and as a gesture of goodwill, I am prepared to offer you an ex gratia payment.

As a result of my decision, it is not my intention to respond specifically to the individual issues you have raised other than to explain how I intend to resolve the matter.

I propose to offer you the amount of £x,xxx.xx in full and final settlement of your complaint. This figure will effectively return the payment protection premiums you have paid (including interest). Details of the offer are shown on the Acceptance of Offer Form enclosed.

You should note that this offer includes an element of 8% statutory interest amounting to £xxx.xx.

We note from reviewing our records that following a successful insurance claim, a total payment of £x,xxx.xx was credited to your account, this amount has therefore been deducted from the payment amount.

In resolution to your complaintwe are willing to refund the cost of the policy to the bank account of your choosing.

The FOS guidelines state that, following any PPI refund, we need to ensure that our customers are placed in the same financial position had the PPI policy never been sold. However, as we are willing to offer this amount as a cash refund direct to the bank account of your choosing; please be advised that your new contractural monthly repayments will reflect the removal of PPI.

Regrettably it is not possible to cancel the Personal Loan Protection Plan. However, it is possible to restructure your existing Personal Loan onto a new loan without protection at the same interest rate and remaining term.

Please find enclosed new Legal Documents which require your signature in order to set up a new account without PPI.

In order to set up your new Personal Loan and process your PPI refund we will require receipt of the signed acceptance form, signed legal agreement and fully completed direct debit. we cannot open your new Personal Loan account if any of these are omitted.

The FSA had imposed a financial penalty on HFC Bank Ltd for failing to make and retain sufficient records for the sale of some PPI policies. We are satisfied that this had no relevance to the sale of your PPI policy.

Unless I hear from you within the next 8 weeks, I will assume the matter is resolved to your satisfaction and my files will be closed."

I am confused. HFC have stated in their letter that they cannot cancel my Personal Loan protection plan, but they are offering a complete refund! They are also asking me to sign a new agreement!

 

Furthermore, although it is correct that I did make a claim against the PPI policy for 12 months when I was made redundant, should HFC have deducted these premiums from the settlement figure when the are in effect acknowledging that the the PPI was missold?

 

In addition to PPI, HFC also included decreasing term assurance to the loan without my consent and yet no mention is made with regard to refunding these premiums. even if they are able to dudect from the PPI refund the premiums included in the claim when I was unemployed, surely they would have to refund the DTA element of the premium in any event?

 

HFC are insisting that I accept their offer by 9th March and so any suggestions on the way forward would be appreciated.

[dx100uk]

cant check the figure as you've blanked them!

 

as for signing a new agreement, garbage, they dont need to do that all they need to do is to remove the PPI from the monthly sum.

 

even if the PPI was mis-sold, you still had pennies from it during your claim, and thus, if they did fefund that, your outstanding balance now would increase, so i think they are correct in doing that too.

 

i dont knowwhat decreasingterm assurance is?

 

explain more?

 

dx

[monkeymad1]

Hi dx100uk,

 

Thanks for your prompt reply.

 

I can confirm that the figures that I blanked out are as follows:

 

"I propose to offer you the amount of £3,736.97 in full and final settlement of your complaint against HFC Bank. This figure will effectively return the payment protection premiums you have paid (including interest).

&0u should note that this offer includes an element of 8% statutory interest amounting to £729.81.

We note from reviewing our records that following a successful insurance claim, a total payment of £3,664.72 was credited to your account, this amount has therefore been deducted from the payment amount"

In effect, HFC are offering me a sum of £746.69 provided that I sign a new fixed sum loan agreement over 34 months and a new direct debit for the monthly repayment amount in the sum of £232.99 (APR 19.8%).

 

When I took out the loan, HFC added the single premium PPI to the loan without my consent (I was only quoted one total figure). When I submitted my claim for repayment of the PPI, I checked the original loan agreement and discovered that in addition to the PPI HFC had also added life assurance for myself and my wife (the loan was in my sole name!). This was a single premium in the sum of £1,470.38 with interest (19.9% APR) added to the loan. The life assurance was on a decreasing basis reducing in line with the amount owed (hence decreasing term assurance) and again, this was added without me being told and certainly without my agreement.

 

I did make a claim under the PPI for my loan repayments for a period of 12 months whilst I was unemployed. The payment made by HFC's insurers' included payment of the monthly PPI and life assurance premium as well as the loan element.

 

My questions are these:

 

1. HFC have quoted a figure for the refund of PPI but seem to have ignored my request for a refund of the life assurance premiums as there is no mention of this policy in their letter.

 

2. Should the life assurance premium refund that I have requested include all of the total premiums that I have paid to date (including interest) including the period when I was unemployed?

 

I would welcome any advice that can be provided to help me decide the best way forward. I don't want to accept an offer from HFC only to find that I have been "ripped off" again by them.

[dx100uk]

checked the original loan agreement and discovered that in addition to the PPI HFC had also added life assurance for myself and my wife (the loan was in my sole name!). This was a single premium in the sum of £1,470.38 with interest (19.9% APR) added to the loan. The life assurance was on a decreasing basis reducing in line with the amount owed (hence decreasing term assurance)

 

can you scan up the agreement please

 

remove pers inf but left figures

 

dx

[monkeymad1]

dx100uk,

 

as requested, I attach a copy of the original agreement for you to have a look at.

 

Hopefully, I have managed to scan and email this correctly. It is the first time I have tried to do this!!!!!

HFC copy agreement.pdf

[dx100uk]

10-10

well done !

 

now, 1st look throws up something else too.

 

you had loans refinanced into this one you are reclaiming PPI etc on.

 

those loans would of had PPI TOO!

so i bet you were charged PPI on those too, and i bet you were not 'refunded' the remaining PPI sums when they were refinanced either.

 

something to think about.

so even if their figure above is correct, it does not include the old loans i bet!

so effectively you were charged PPI on PPI & interest on interst!

 

crafty but sadly typical of HFC.

 

dx

[middenmess]

Borrow £11,000 over 7 years.

 

Repay £25,796.

 

with these rates of return on 'their' money,it's no surprise that they can afford to pay fines like....

 

FSA fines HFC Bank £1.085 million for PPI failings

 

 

 

FSA/PN/004/2008

16 January 2008

The Financial Services Authority (FSA) has fined HFC Bank Ltd (HFC) £1,085,000 for failing to take reasonable care to ensure that the advice it gave customers to buy Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) was suitable, and for failing to have adequate systems and controls for the sale of PPI.

From January 2005 to May 2007, HFC's procedures did not require advisers in its branch network to gather sufficient information about customers' circumstances and take sufficient information into account when considering whether PPI was suitable. HFC also did not require advisers to explain fully why they recommended a particular policy or identify to customers any demands and needs which the policy would not meet. These and other failings meant that HFC put its customers at an unacceptable risk of being sold PPI when it was not suitable for them.

FSA Director of Enforcement Margaret Cole said:

"We are determined to see much better practice in the PPI market. We announced in September that we would be imposing higher fines for serious failings in the retail market including against firms who fall short in relation to PPI. The fine against HFC – the biggest PPI fine to date and first since our September announcement – is evidence of our determination in this area. HFC's failings put its customers at risk of buying unsuitable protection insurance and the financial impact on them of unsuitable advice was likely to be significant."

In addition, the FSA found that as a result of HFC’s inadequate systems and controls:

 

• it did not have effective systems to train and monitor its staff and failed to ensure that its procedures for monitoring sales staff effectively identified and investigated potentially unsuitable sales;
  
• management information provided to HFC's senior management was not sufficient to enable them to identify problems with the sale of PPI; and
  
• its records were not sufficient to demonstrate its sales were suitable.
  

[monkeymad1]

Hi all,

 

I have this morning received in the post a default notice from HFC with regard to my loan together with a statement showing that they have added £110.00 in "administration" fees since August 2009!!!

 

Is this another HFC tactic to put pressure on me to agree to a new loan agreement ? On the one hand they have offered to repay my PPI provided that I sign a new loan agreement, on the other they are threatening legal action against me for non payment of their administration fees!

 

I would welcome any advice. Following dx100uk comments, should I now send these idiots a SAR to try and find out how they have calculated the original loan amount and charges?

[dx100uk]

they couldn't care a monkey's mate.

they are a disgusting company that ripped people off in their branches during the 80's 90's and even still today.

 

there is nothing they can do to you regarding 'their' admin charges!

they are unlawful anyhow! so it will never go to court.

 

reclaim them too!

 

dx

[monkeymad1]

Hi everyone,

 

I attach a copy of the letter that I have sent to HFC in reply to their letter offering me a refund of the PPI on my loan. I would welcome any comments:

 

I have just read on the forum the article about how misselling of PPI can render CCA loans unenforceable. This makes very interesting reading, but I wonder if anyone has any more information about the judgment at South Shields County court referred to? Have there been any subsequent developments?

HFC letter (6).doc

[dx100uk]

you really need to read through that letter carfully, there are several grammatical & spelling errors. it SAR too .

 

oh and you need to pull them up on the default notice

you a/c is in dispute, they should NOT be issuing anything even to the CRA during a dispute.

 

again sadly typical of the utterly disgusting way HFC treat their customers. demand ALL is removed and any charges refunded whist the A/C is in dispute else call to FOS goes in.

 

dx

[monkeymad1]

Thanks dx100uk,

 

I typed the letter to HFC when I was feeling angry and forgot to use spellcheck!!!!

 

I will check spelliing and grammar and send to HFC and remind them of their obligations whilst the account is in dispute and demand that all default penalties and charges are refunded.

 

I have discovered with HFC that they are very forceful in demanding payments from me, but when you question them and request information they suddenly go very quiet!

 

I will post details of any reply that I receive.

[dx100uk]

and the default notice!

 

dx

[monkeymad1]

Agreed. - Will do!

[monkeymad1]

Hi all,

 

following my recent letter to HFC requesting information concerning the PPI calculations on their refund letter, I have now received the attached reply.

 

I will be grateful for any advice on how to proceed further.

 

HFC have stated that they closed my loan account on or after 29th January 2010, whilst their original offer was still valid. furthermore, they have not sent to me a notice of termination or a deed of assignment.

 

How can they close the account before their original offer had expired?

 

It would appear from the tone of their letter that they are not prepared or willing to answer the questions that I have raised in my letter to them. Indeed, they have advised me to contact the Finance & Leasing Association (whoever they are) for information concerning the HFC agreements that were consolidated to this loan!

 

At least I now know that their were 5 previous credit agreements (with account numbers) taken out with HFC even though they are refusing to provide any information concerning settlement figures etc.

 

I seen to be getting nowhere with my request for information. Should I now apply for the SAR? Alternatively, can anyone suggest a suitable reply to HFC? (without eing rude!!!).

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

received HFC letter 10-03-2010.pdf

[dx100uk]

nothing unusual there , they have basically monkied me around for tw oyears with the same b@ll letter never actually answering my exact questions regarding refinancing and what happens to that ppi.

 

id sar them.

 

and p'haps its now time for involve to fos, if you have not already done so.

 

hfc are pants at customer service.

 

they fleeced me for over for 20+ yrs .

 

still fighting them.

 

dx

[monkeymad1]

Thanx dx100uk for your prompt reply.

 

I will send the SAR to them using the CAG letter template. It will be interesting to see what I get back!

 

I haven't written to the FOS yet but will send them a letter within the next few days.

 

So, it is not unusual for HFC to give their customers the run around?

 

From your experience, it looks like I am in this for the long haul!

[dx100uk]

i'd go up on the fos website and start the process there

just follow the PPI complaint link.

 

as for a long haul.....yep, i've been arguing for 18mts on a refund they can't even calculate properly, they show how they have come to the figure, but you follow it & their total is +£250 short.

will they ack they have the total wrong...no!

 

never mind.

 

good luck.

 

dx

[monkeymad1]

Will do dx100uk.

 

I have checked HFC's figures and based upon the information that they have supplied their maths is wrong. They have also used a lower APR figure to the one on the original agreement!