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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Asda-drydens Solicitors-notice Of Intended Civil Recovery


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Hi JonCris,

 

I'm pleased to see you back on this forum and hope you are well!

 

Yes, I will still continue to support victims of RLP - the members of this forum, including yourself, provided me with a huge wealth of support, and I will not forget their kindness.

 

I remember reading somewhere on here from a so called RLP employee, that this forum is not a threat to RLP............aparently they just view it as some kind of "self help group" for their victims!

 

Oh, how wrong they are! What kind of information are you looking to provide to the governing body you have arranged a meeting with?

 

I think my case would be a good one for numerous reasons, not forgetting RLP's blackmail letters, ie their first letter claiming £22.74....then due to an "administration error on their behalf", jumped to £90.99........could there have been another "administration error" in the pipeline???....what is their favourite amount again??........£135 or something or other??........

 

If anything, RLP has taught me a lesson and that is to stand up for myself and not give into bullies....so thanks RLP for that "self help" counselling......that would have probably cost a fortune had I sought professional help!!:D:D:D

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Billybumpkins - Please spare a thought (whether you are a parent or not) of the innocent and vulnerable children and adults on this forum that haven't committed a crime, haven't stolen, haven't incurred a loss to a company but have been subjected to all the goings on relating to untrained security staff, loss prevention staff that haven't a clue, RLP plus their numerous debt collection agencies and threats that come with it.

 

I'm with you Button!

 

Joncris - Count me in on your meeting

 

 

Hi Sugar Plum Fairy,

You hit the nail on the head. Now without incurring the wrath of those before, when I mentioned a loss prevention professional, I am talking about people who are highly trained and usually in plain clothes and have been doing the job for years. A professional will not make these mistakes. Any retailer that enters into an agreement with a CR company will have a set of guidelines to operate under, JonCris will know this as he seems versed on these matters. CR should only be issued to over 18's, under 65/70 depending on what was agreed, not pregnant women or those obviously mentally or physically impaired.

I have noticed on these forums a few people who have been served with notices that really should not have. The security companies have a poor track record on training regarding this issue, and without trying to sound racist, while they employ foreign nationals who use English as a second language, then this will only exacerbate the problem. The problem lies, not with RLP/ Drydens et al. The charges and the amount thereof have all been through the courts and found to be reasonable, and the actual process of civil recovery has been through the courts and there is case law saying that these charges can be claimed for.

 

The issue that you guys on this forum should really be addressing, is the amount and quality of training/ personnel that the security companies place into retail environments. I have a friend who became a security officer some 15 years ago, and then the training was 5 days in a classroom and a week on site with a qualified trainer, before they were let loose and they were constantly monitored. The security company paid a substantial amount of money for good staff in those days, upwards of £6.00 an hour. If you look at the current rates of pay within the security industry, you will see that they have not risen accordingly over the past 15 years. As in any industry, if you pay a low rate, you will get low quality. If you pay a higher rate, you attract better people and then you can pick and choose who you employ, rather than have the best of a bad bunch.

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There IS case law allowing companies to do this but only AFTER the person has been convicted of a criminal offence which is why these companies are keen that either the victim signs a letter agreeing that they have committed an offence. Failure to agree will mean the police will be summoned & asked to issue a FPN. ............... Faced with the possibility of arrest is it any wonder that most sign the document in the mistaken belief that will be the end of the matter when in fact it's just the beginning

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I could have understood if there was a language barrier and this was why the security guard wasn't understanding what I was trying to explain.....

 

.......but nope, my security guard's accent was about as local as they come I'm afraid!

Edited by Button1
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Hi Sugar Plum Fairy,

You hit the nail on the head. Now without incurring the wrath of those before, when I mentioned a loss prevention professional, I am talking about people who are highly trained and usually in plain clothes and have been doing the job for years. A professional will not make these mistakes. Any retailer that enters into an agreement with a CR company will have a set of guidelines to operate under, JonCris will know this as he seems versed on these matters. CR should only be issued to over 18's, under 65/70 depending on what was agreed, not pregnant women or those obviously mentally or physically impaired.

I have noticed on these forums a few people who have been served with notices that really should not have. The security companies have a poor track record on training regarding this issue, and without trying to sound racist, while they employ foreign nationals who use English as a second language, then this will only exacerbate the problem. The problem lies, not with RLP/ Drydens et al. The charges and the amount thereof have all been through the courts and found to be reasonable, and the actual process of civil recovery has been through the courts and there is case law saying that these charges can be claimed for.

 

The issue that you guys on this forum should really be addressing, is the amount and quality of training/ personnel that the security companies place into retail environments. I have a friend who became a security officer some 15 years ago, and then the training was 5 days in a classroom and a week on site with a qualified trainer, before they were let loose and they were constantly monitored. The security company paid a substantial amount of money for good staff in those days, upwards of £6.00 an hour. If you look at the current rates of pay within the security industry, you will see that they have not risen accordingly over the past 15 years. As in any industry, if you pay a low rate, you will get low quality. If you pay a higher rate, you attract better people and then you can pick and choose who you employ, rather than have the best of a bad bunch.

 

 

You say CR should only be given to over 18s? So why is RLP upholding the CR given to under 18s,there are several notable examples on this forum?

I am glad you have now noticed that several people have been given notices that should not have been,keep reading and you will see why RLP need to be stopped.

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You say CR should only be given to over 18s? So why is RLP upholding the CR given to under 18s,there are several notable examples on this forum?

I am glad you have now noticed that several people have been given notices that should not have been,keep reading and you will see why RLP need to be stopped.

 

 

I took on a 16 year old cashier. I pay a decent rate to under 18's as I don't believe age should be a barrier to a correct rate of pay. He then stole £5220 pounds from me. He got caught and admitted to the lot. He went to court and got a community punishment. I was not awarded anything.

Can you suggest another way I can get my money back? I have asked him for it, no reply!"!!!!!!!!!

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There IS case law allowing companies to do this but only AFTER the person has been convicted of a criminal offence which is why these companies are keen that either the victim signs a letter agreeing that they have committed an offence. Failure to agree will mean the police will be summoned & asked to issue a FPN. ............... Faced with the possibility of arrest is it any wonder that most sign the document in the mistaken belief that will be the end of the matter when in fact it's just the beginning

 

 

This does not happen in my environment.

 

As I said above, there would be no arrest if nothing untoward had happened. Less than 10 % of thieves go to court. They pay £80 and are free before the security officer/ store detective have written their statement.

 

What is there on a notice of intended civil recovery that says signing the notice means the incident is done with?

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You say CR should only be given to over 18s? So why is RLP upholding the CR given to under 18s,there are several notable examples on this forum?

I am glad you have now noticed that several people have been given notices that should not have been,keep reading and you will see why RLP need to be stopped.

 

 

It is not RLP or the likes that need to be stopped, it is the security officer/retailer that need to think before issuing.

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Guest Old_andrew2018
I took on a 16 year old cashier. I pay a decent rate to under 18's as I don't believe age should be a barrier to a correct rate of pay. He then stole £5220 pounds from me. He got caught and admitted to the lot. He went to court and got a community punishment. I was not awarded anything.

Can you suggest another way I can get my money back? I have asked him for it, no reply!"!!!!!!!!!

 

May be consulting a solicitor, you might have already gone down that line, not sure what more you can do.

How on earth did he manage to steal what to me seems a large sum.

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I took on a 16 year old cashier. I pay a decent rate to under 18's as I don't believe age should be a barrier to a correct rate of pay. He then stole £5220 pounds from me. He got caught and admitted to the lot. He went to court and got a community punishment. I was not awarded anything.

Can you suggest another way I can get my money back? I have asked him for it, no reply!"!!!!!!!!!

 

 

The CPS should have asked for a compensation order, but they seldom do, nevertheless failing that as he was found guilty be a court of law you have every right to take civil action to recover what was stolen plus any additional costs incurred in that recovery

 

No one is saying loss recovery is wrong only that it should only be used where there has been a court conviction

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May be consulting a solicitor, you might have already gone down that line, not sure what more you can do.

How on earth did he manage to steal what to me seems a large sum.

 

 

Has been done, the solicitor has asked me for an outline of the losses, both financial and in time lost investigating and dealing with this person, also wanted to know how much it costs to hire and train a replacement. Sound familiar??

 

Oh, by the way, he also wants £600 for the work.

 

How did he do it, by refunding on to his bank card.

Furthermore, it meant me not being paid for 2 months, so I am looking interest and also for him to pay the solicitor fees

Edited by Billybumpkins
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The CPS should have asked for a compensation order, but they seldom do, nevertheless failing that as he was found guilty be a court of law you have every right to take civil action to recover what was stolen plus any additional costs incurred in that recovery

 

No one is saying loss recovery is wrong only that it should only be used where there has been a court conviction

 

And if they qualify for a FPN and don't go to court??

 

Isnt that just as guilty as going to court??

 

Does that make to police judge, jury and executioner?:confused:

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Do it yourself 1st write to the miscreant & tell him you want ex amount (include an invoice) & that if he fails to pay or come to an arrangement to pay you WILL take civil action through the courts which can only increase his indebtedness to you

 

If he's got any sense whatsoever he'll make arrangements to pay rather than face court again & the subsequent publicity that might follow

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And if they qualify for a FPN and don't go to court??

 

Isnt that just as guilty as going to court??

 

Does that make to police judge, jury and executioner?:confused:

 

The accused has to agree to the issuing of the FPN & they are warned that if they refuse they will be arrested & taken to the station where it's not uncommon for them to held for many hours. Now which would you do if confronted with the horror of being arrested put into handcuffs & marched in public to the waiting police van ............ not many people have the bottle to stand up for themselves in such circumstances & refuse to be bullied ............. many even when innocent capitulate

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And if they qualify for a FPN and don't go to court??

 

Isnt that just as guilty as going to court??

 

Does that make to police judge, jury and executioner?:confused:

 

Yes it does & it's why FPN are now being questioned by many in the legal profession

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Do it yourself 1st write to the miscreant & tell him you want ex amount (include an invoice) & that if he fails to pay or come to an arrangement to pay you WILL take civil action through the courts which can only increase his indebtedness to you

 

If he's got any sense whatsoever he'll make arrangements to pay rather than face court again & the subsequent publicity that might follow

 

Is that not what the big multiples do, except it is through RLP/ Drydens etc??

 

I really don't see the difference.

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The accused has to agree to the issuing of the FPN & they are warned that if they refuse they will be arrested & taken to the station where it's not uncommon for them to held for many hours. Now which would you do if confronted with the horror of being arrested put into handcuffs & marched in public to the waiting police van ............ not many people have the bottle to stand up for themselves in such circumstances & refuse to be bullied ............. many even when innocent capitulate

 

The horror?? As many professional thieves look upon it as a bad day at the office. I don't see how being taken away for commiting a crime is bullying

 

The spur of the moment thief, well, that is a life choice for them and not something anyone but them should be worrying about.

 

The innocent??

Well, they will not be in this scenario, not in my shop anyway.

In the big multiples, the innocent are handsomely rewarded for any wrong done against them, should the inncoent party take the right steps to complain accordingly, and who in their right mind wouldn't??

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Guest Old_andrew2018
Is that not what the big multiples do, except it is through RLP/ Drydens etc??

 

I really don't see the difference.

 

I see the differnence the individual to whom you refer was found quilty by a court, so yes he should pay something but only if you or any company who you instruct issue a county court summons, and of course you will need to win.

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