Help no response for copy of credit agrement

[Number6]

Here it is:

 

174 Restrictions on disclosure of information

 

(1) No information obtained under or by virtue of this Act about any individual shall be disclosed without his consent.

 

(2) No information obtained under or by virtue of this Act about any business shall bedisclosed except, so long as the business continues to be carried on, with the consent ofthe person for the time being carrying it on.

 

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to any disclosure of information made—

 

(a) for the purpose of facilitating the performance of any functions, under thisAct, the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 or Part II or III or section 125 (annualand other reports of Director) of the Fair Trading Act 1973 [or the EstateAgents Act 1979][or the Competition Act 1980][or the TelecommunicationsAct 1984][or the Gas Act 1986][or the Airports Act 1986][or the ConsumerProtection Act 1987][or Part II of the Consumer Protection (NorthernIreland) Order 1987][or the Control of Misleading AdvertisementsRegulations 1988][or the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990][or theRailways Act 1993][or the Coal Industry Act 1994][or the Water Act 1989][the Water Act 1991 or any of the other consolidation Acts (within themeaning of section 206 of that Act of 1991)][or the Electricity Act 1989][orthe Electricity (Northern Ireland) Order 1992][or the Gas (Northern Ireland)Order 1996][or Part IV of the Airports (Northern Ireland) Order 1994] of theSecretary of State, any other Minister,[the Director General of Telecommunications,][the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority][the Civil Aviation Authority][the Director General of Water Services,][. . .][or the Director General of Electricity Supply for Northern Ireland][or the Director General of Gas for Northern Ireland][the Rail Regulator][the Authorised Conveyancing Practitioners board, the Coal Authority] any enforcement authority or any Northern Ireland department, or

 

(b) in connection with the investigation of any criminal offence or for the

purposes of any criminal proceedings, or

 

© for the purposes of any civil proceedings brought under or by virtue of

this Act or under Part III of the Fair Trading Act 1973 [or under the Control

of Misleading Advertisements Regulations 1988].

 

[(3A) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to any disclosure of information by the Director to the [Financial Services Authority] for the purpose of enabling or assisting the [Authority] to discharge its functions under the Banking Act 1987 or the Director to discharge hisfunctions under this Act.]

 

(4) Nothing in subsections (1) and (2) shall be construed—

 

(a) as limiting the particulars which may be entered in the register; or

 

(b) as applying to any information which has been made public as part of the register.

 

(5) Any person who discloses information in contravention of this section commits an offence.

[jamesbond]

your a top guy number 6!! that has saved me 2 hrs hunting around my totally unorganised computer..big big thanks! 007

[Number6]

No worries, I have all sorts of junk floating around here!

 

Take care.

 

Pete

[jamesbond]

pete, if they have lost the signed agreement can they still disclose to the cras under article 6 of the dpa?

[Number6]

pete, if they have lost the signed agreement can they still disclose to the cras under article 6 of the Data Protection Act?

 

If there is no agreement then by definition they do not have your permission to process or pass on your data.

 

However, they could conceivably argue Paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 of the Data Protection Act if they think they have lent you money:

 

4. The processing is necessary in order to protect the vital interests of the data subject.

 

And yes they could also argue Paragraph 6.

 

6. - (1) The processing is necessary for the purposes of legitimate interests pursued by the data controller or by the third party or parties to whom the data are disclosed, except where the processing is unwarranted in any particular case by reason of prejudice to the rights and freedoms or legitimate interests of the data subject.

 

They would need to apply to a court to enforce the agreement though in either case IMO before they apply either. The CRA's though are only Data Processors, not Data Controllers so recourse would be via the lender rather than the CRA.

 

Pete

[jamesbond]

thanks pete, you are such a great knowlege on these matters. have dispatched a letter tonight so will see what happens and keep you posted..

thanks loads again.. 007

[Number6]

OK jamesbond.

 

I'll be interested to see what happens.

 

Pete

[Laiste]

Hello all,

 

This is a very interesting thread! I have a bit of advice for those of you who haven't been provided with a copy of your credit agreement. The debt is entirely unenforceable and you can claim all the monies back you have paid to the company, in the last 6yrs. It is not a properly executed contract under the CCA 1974, if there is no evidence of the agreement. If a company is not pursuing you through the county court for the debt, it will in all likelihood require you to file a claim, but the chances are if they can't produce the agreement, they are not going to go to the time and expense of going to trial as they know they wouldn't win the case.

 

With regards to the CRA's I would consider going after them for compensation, not only for breaches of the DPA 1998, but for libel.

 

I hope this helps!

 

Laiste.

[jamesbond]

my questions are...why do some companies write a debt off if there is no agreement? what is the point of the cca stating the agreement is unenforcable if the debt is still enforcable?what is the position of the debtor when there is no agreement in situ? is there any difficulty in making the debt repayable if the documents can not be produced? i have yet to read of any one on here being made to pay the debt by a court if the agreement is missing? i would be pleased if we could clarify these points .as i am at present at logger heads with the nasty west over this issue..zoot scoot seems very strong on this issue you must pay even if no agreement is present?

[Laiste]

Hi Jamesbond,

 

Under the CCA 1974, no agreement means a company cannot enforce the debt. It would be advantageous for a bank/cc to write off the debt in a bid to placate you, if they believe that will stop you claiming monies you have paid in the past 6yrs and having to repair your credit file. If they know they have been rumbled, they will endeavour to get away with bare minimum in terms of their obligations to you.

 

If a bank/cc tells you that even in the absence of an agreement the contract is still enforceable, they are lying. It is what the law states that is relevant, not the opinion of some moron employed by these institutions to take your last penny, irrespective of the legality of doing so.

 

If you are not subject to legal action over the debt by the company, then you will in all likelihood have to take them to court, to enforce your rights. They may very well settle before trial, but you need to be prepared to go all the way!

 

If zoot scoot has put forward the view that you have to pay if there is no agreement, then I disagree. As far as I'm concerned, no evidence of an agreement means the company cannot prove the form and content of the contract, which is a requirement of the CCA 1974.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

Laiste.

[jamesbond]

thanks for that info laiste...if any one understands the proceedure ive no doubt you do....i hope your health is getting better after all the stress you have been through and hope you get what you deserve in putting these companies in place.

this matter does need clarifying completely as there is much conflicting advice on this matter. like i said previousley i have not yet read of anyone being made by the courts to repay a debt in the abscence of an agreement and would be interested to know if any actually have.

i am in the position of stand off with my mums loan in that we have been waiting 4 months to supply the agreement both on service of a subject access request and a cca request. both have failed to produce and it has also been investigated by the bank with the response that due to the passage of time we are unable to locate it.

we have this week suspended payments to the loan on the grounds of no credit agreement and the response to the misselling of ppi was go away we are not interested.. i will open my thread back up on this and would be obliged if you could assist. 007

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/50380-no-credit-agreement-ppi.html#post406942

[Laiste]

Hi 007,

 

Many thanks for your kind words, things have been quite stressful in recent months! I will be happy to contribute to your thread if you let me know where to find it.

 

I think a great deal of confusion abounds about the CCA 1974, because it is a huge piece of complex legislation! As I've said elsewhere, you not only have the Act, but lots of SI's passed under it that deals with specific parts of the Act, so you cannot read it in isolation. That said, regarding evidence of the agreement a Court will not enforce an agreement without it. The Act was passed to protect consumers, which is an important consideration. When you think about the power that banks and credit card companies have as opposed to consumers, we all have to sign their standard form contracts, you can't negotiate the terms and if you went to any other company you would be faced with the same situation. What I'm saying is that the bargaining power of the consumer is virtually non existent, the banks/cc's hold all the power. So, in terms of the contract you enter, the Courts are fully aware that consumers are at a disadvantage, so if the banks/cc's cannot get the paperwork right or even provide it, then the debt will be unenforceable.

 

You will have to commence legal proceedings, unless they do it first which is better for you in terms of costs and also the burden of proof lies with them. Some things will depend on time factors and whether it is critical for your mum's credit file to be repaired sooner rather than later. They will transfer the debt to their in house Collections Dept more than likely to begin with for perhaps 6mnths, and then it will be passed to a DCA for anything between 3-9mnths. If they decide to pursue you for the debt through the Courts, you can add approx another 6mnths to that timescale. So if you want to get rid of the debt, claim monies back and repair the file as a matter of urgency, then you will have to go after them! Rest assured however, you are in the best of all positions if they haven't got the agreement!

 

Laiste:)

[jamesbond]

thanks for that laiste you are a good man...it really does need clarification on these matters..the link to my post is at the bottom of my previous thread, i would be honoured if you would take a look and advise how to proceed as this is new territory to me..big thanks 007

[natheyabdn]

Hi Jamesbond,

 

Under the CCA 1974, no agreement means a company cannot enforce the debt. It would be advantageous for a bank/cc to write off the debt in a bid to placate you, if they believe that will stop you claiming monies you have paid in the past 6yrs and having to repair your credit file. If they know they have been rumbled, they will endeavour to get away with bare minimum in terms of their obligations to you.

 

If a bank/cc tells you that even in the absence of an agreement the contract is still enforceable, they are lying. It is what the law states that is relevant, not the opinion of some moron employed by these institutions to take your last penny, irrespective of the legality of doing so.

 

If you are not subject to legal action over the debt by the company, then you will in all likelihood have to take them to court, to enforce your rights. They may very well settle before trial, but you need to be prepared to go all the way!

 

If zoot scoot has put forward the view that you have to pay if there is no agreement, then I disagree. As far as I'm concerned, no evidence of an agreement means the company cannot prove the form and content of the contract, which is a requirement of the CCA 1974.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

Laiste.

 

Laiste,

 

Firstly - thanks for your input as its clarified a few things for me, like you also said this is a really interesting thread and i have been reading with much enthusiasm as i myself am in a bit of a pickle with a bank who are not producing a signed agreement.

 

Their (BoS) time is up on the 12 of december so at that point im going to send the following letter :

 

 

HBOSplc

Trinity Road

Halifax

HX1 2RG

 

12/12/2006

 

CONSUMER CREDIT ACT REQUEST – MR N WARE

 

Dear Sirs;

 

I refer you to the letter dated 24/10/2006, requesting a true copy of the signed agreement of account XXXXX under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79)

 

I enclosed a cheque for the relevant fee of £1.00, 42 days have now passed since my original request. I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are therefore unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

I do not acknowledge any debt to Bank of Scotland.

 

I will no longer be making any payments to this “debt” as it is unenforceable. I now believe that the Bank of Scotland may have committed a criminal offence under the terms of the Consumer Credit Act, and non compliance with the original request is a complete defence to any court claim that may be issued.

 

Please also note that you will reimburse all funds to which I have paid you, the total being the sum of £XXXX and write off the alleged “debt” with immediate effect. This is my final stance on the matter.

 

Please could you provide me with a contact email address as I will be copying you into all correspondence sent to the Financial Services Authority & Trading Standards with regards to this case and they will carry out whatever action deemed necessary.

 

 

Furthermore in previous correspondance you referenced account XXXXX. I would appreciate if you could provide details regarding the account as I have no knowledge of holding said account.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

Nathan Ware

 

Can you advise if this is sufficient?! If any amendments need made could you let me know.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Nathe

[LeeS80]

Hi folks,

 

I've recently found out that HFC don't have my agreement. I've just fired of a letter today asking them to remove the default they placed on my file because of the apparent lack of agreement, I can post on here once I receive a response if anyone wants me to?

 

Cheers for now,

Lee

[Matheos95]

Hi folks,

 

I've recently found out that HFC don't have my agreement. I've just fired of a letter today asking them to remove the default they placed on my file because of the apparent lack of agreement, I can post on here once I receive a response if anyone wants me to?

 

Cheers for now,

Lee

 

Hi

 

I would love to know what they say as of the 15th Dec if not supplied then they are at commiting offence stage with me too. Good luck with whatever comes back.

 

Cheers

[pford]

Quick update on this now had two letters from the Halifax

 

With reference to your recent Communication (what the hell asked for the documents in August) about terms & conditions, we regret that you have found cause to complaint.

 

I am examining your concerns and you will receive a response from us within four weeks. In-line with the Financial Service Authority regulations.

 

You will find enclosed a copy of our leaflet, which tells you how we will handle your complaint.

 

 

 

Thank you for your recent communication regarding the above numbered account.

 

I have enclosed a copy of your current Terms and Conditions relating to your Halifax Visa Card as requested.

 

 

This is the best bit they have rewrote the contract to my present address.

 

1 PARTIES

 

The parties to this Agreement are Halifax plc, Trinity Road, Halifax, West Yorkshire, HX1 2RG and MR ME of CURRUNT ADDRESS

 

I have moved twice since I took the visa out are they allowed to do this?

[Matheos95]

Morning a bit of advice - sorry for jumping on thread - I have today had 3 company's go into criminal offence with failing to supplu CCA within the time limit - whats the best course of action?

[pford]

Bump

 

Any one got any thoughts on my last post?

 

The document they sent me has to be fraud

 

 

 

This is the best bit they have rewrote the contract to my present address.

 

 

1 PARTIES

 

The parties to this Agreement are Halifax plc, Trinity Road, Halifax, West Yorkshire, HX1 2RG and MR ME of CURRUNT ADDRESS

I have moved twice since I took the visa out are they allowed to do this?

[rosierose]

Hi Pford

 

Its interesting that their response mentions T&C's rather than the agreement asked for in your original request and the enclosed document purports to be an agreement. Is that right?

 

Does it have your signature?

[Fullyskinted]

Ive been reading about the procedures for requesting agreements etc for the l;ast two days.

You have asked for a copy of the original agreement, signed by yourself.

They have sent a you a copy of the T&Cs. NOT THE SAME.

 

WRT the address, yeh Id say thats OK. AFter all, Im assuming you told them you moved, so the T&Cs are still relevant (if they have the copy of the original credit agreement )

[Fullyskinted]

The key word here is ORIGINAL (as in the first thing you signed). A copy of up to date T&Cs is irrelvant in this case imho.

[pford]

The document they sent me is headed

CREDIT CARD AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

This is a copy of your Agreement for you to keep. It includes a notice about your cancellation rights which you should read.

 

[Fullyskinted]

The document they sent me is headed

 

 

 

 

AFAIK it needs to be the ORIGINAL copy signed by you (or a legible copy thereof). Can somebody correct me if Im wrong.

 

If this is what they are calling the agreement - then as already discussed ( maybe in another thread) theyre even stupider than we all thought!

[zootscoot]

Hi pford,

 

The definition of what amounts to a true copy for the purposes of s.77/8 is set out in Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

Quote:

3 General requirements as to form and contact of copy documents

 

(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) Any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) Any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© In the case of any of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

 

(d) In the case of any copy of an executed agreement given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act for fixed-sum credit, or under section 78(1) for running-account credit, under which a person takes any articles in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.

 

Hope this helps

 

Zoot