PCN with On Street contravention code in Council Car Park

[monkeyboy65]

Hi

 

Got a PCN in a Council car park under contravention code 16 - Parked in a permit space without displaying a valid permit.

 

The CEO has obviously used the wrong code as 16 specifically relates to an On-Street parking contravention. The one that probably should have been used was code 85 for an Off-Street parking contravention. There are other issues that I'll cover later but is this first one likely to be a sufficient reason to include in my informal appeal?

 

The other issues that I can throw in if necessary are as follows:

 

1. The only sign on display said 'No Parking Area - Reserved for Market Traders Only'

2. The PCN was given on a day when the Market was not in operation

3. There is nothing to state a permit is required

4. There are no marked parking bays or spaces

5. There is no indication that ignoring the sign will result in a fine/penalty charge to pay.

 

I'll post photos showing the sign and location shortly.

 

Hope someone can offer advice.

 

Thanks

MB65

[green_and_mean]

The code is technically not required the description of the alledged contravention is however needed.

[nero12]

The code is technically not required the description of the alledged contravention is however needed.

If the contravention code relates to on street parking and contravention occured in an off street car park then the traffic order will not be the same for the alleged breach.

Your particular instance will come under a parking places order for the car park.

 

I believe this in itself may cancell the ticket for maladmistration.

 

You should also post up a scan of the pcn front and back so it can be checked for technical errors.

[green_and_mean]

If the contravention code relates to on street parking and contravention occured in an off street car park then the traffic order will not be the same for the alleged breach.

Your particular instance will come under a parking places order for the car park.

 

I believe this in itself may cancell the ticket for maladmistration.

 

You should also post up a scan of the pcn front and back so it can be checked for technical errors.

 

I have yet to see a traffic order that mentions contravention codes?

[nero12]

I have yet to see a traffic order that mentions contravention codes?

The information is sufficiently misleading.

The area relates to an off street order, the contravention code relates to on street.

 

There are alot of things that technically do not have to be on the ticket. Much like getting the make or colour wrong, this will be suffiecient to have the ticket cancelled. Personal experience and a couple of threads on two forums I know of proves this.

 

If the authority chose to add information and they get it wrong like this instance then it should be cancelled, however it will be nice to go in with more.

 

monkeyboy65 states that the market was not in operation therefore perhaps a permit is not needed for these days and there is possibly insufficient signage.

 

We may have a complete muppet issuing tickets where they have no right to to do so and getting the contravention codes wrong along with other stuff.

It maybe worth submitting a freedom of information request for the attendants notes and the error rate for the last 6 years to find out if we are indeed dealing with an idiot.

[monkeyboy65]

Sign and location photos

[monkeyboy65]

PCN Photos x 3

[nero12]

PCN Photos x 3

Is the second photo the entrance to the car park or is this the whole car park.

 

Is the sign the only one there.

 

And where did you park in relation to this sign.

Edited May 17, 2009 by nero12
typo

[monkeyboy65]

The paved area forms approx 1/5 of the whole car parking area.The rest is alongside the right hand side of the building in the photo and forms a 'J' shape. This is tarmaced rather than paved and part is shown in the bottom right corner of my photo. Cars park on the paved area at 90 degrees to the road/building, accessing it across the pavement via the dropped kerbs. I was parked on the paved area just to the left of the sign. There are approx 3 other identical signs attached to the side of the building that are visible from the larger part of the car park.

[nero12]

The paved area forms approx 1/5 of the whole car parking area.The rest is alongside the right hand side of the building in the photo and forms a 'J' shape. This is tarmaced rather than paved and part is shown in the bottom right corner of my photo. Cars park on the paved area at 90 degrees to the road/building, accessing it across the pavement via the dropped kerbs. I was parked on the paved area just to the left of the sign. There are approx 3 other identical signs attached to the side of the building that are visible from the larger part of the car park.

I take it this paved area where you parked is where the market traders park to set up on market days.

Do the traders set up stalls along the area with double yellow lines.

 

Can you state what days the market is open.

[monkeyboy65]

Yes, market traders park their vehicles on both the paved and tarmaced parts of the car park after setting up stalls on the market square which is around the front of the building.

 

No stalls are set up on the road.

 

The market runs on 2 weekdays plus Saturday. As mentioned above the PCN was served on a non market day.

[nero12]

Yes, market traders park their vehicles on both the paved and tarmaced parts of the car park after setting up stalls on the market square which is around the front of the building.

 

No stalls are set up on the road.

 

The market runs on 2 weekdays plus Saturday. As mentioned above the PCN was served on a non market day.

Ok is there any written proof or signage that indicates what days the market opens for buisness. How long has the market been operating these particular days.

[monkeyboy65]

Not sure, but there may be an info sign on the market square that includes details of market days. Info is published on council website etc. Market has been operating in this location and on these days for just over a year (originally at the other side of town for years).

 

There is no info or signage about market days anywhere near this car park.

 

Cars have parked here for years without a problem before the market moved and even since it moved on non market days. Problems only started when council took over parking enforcement approx 6 weeks ago.

[nero12]

Not sure, but there may be an info sign on the market square that includes details of market days. Info is published on council website etc. Market has been operating in this location and on these days for just over a year (originally at the other side of town for years).

 

There is no info or signage about market days anywhere near this car park.

 

Cars have parked here for years without a problem before the market moved and even since it moved on non market days. Problems only started when council took over parking enforcement approx 6 weeks ago.

Ahhh newly decrimmed, that will explain it.

 

Ok go in with poor signage you parked on a day when the market is not there and the PCN contravention code does not properly describe the contravention.

 

 

Cobble up a letter mate and post it here to be checked.

 

BTW there maybe others here who may help further so keep checking the thread.

[monkeyboy65]

Ok will do. Thanks for advice. What are the chances of them accepting my informal appeal? Are many successful at this stage?

[lamma]

If they are newly decriminalised then they will have had to fill in and sign a form that all signs, markings and TROs are correct. This form is sent to the DfT so ask the DfT for a copy of the completed form. As I recall the blank form is available on the web - anyone have a link ?

[crem]

Informal appeals appear to pretty unsuccessful (with the council not wanting to give up their ill gotten gains). On rejection from the council, appeals to the adjudicator are much more successful.

[nero12]

crem AFAIK they havnt come up against the CAG mate

 

Plenty to take them apart with. LOL

[lamma]

found that bank form http://www.dft.gov.uk/adobepdf/165240/244921/287508/468279/appform.pdf ask the DfT for a copy of the completed one.

[crem]

crem AFAIK they havnt come up against the CAG mate

 

Plenty to take them apart with. LOL

 

I'm sure you're right nero. I was just meaning they don't seem to realise they are beaten at the first appeal and make you take it further before they give up.

[monkeyboy65]

Thanks for all comments so far. Appeal letter cobbled as follows:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

PCN No: **********

Reg No: **** ***

 

The above numbered Penalty Charge Notice was served on **/**/** in the car park adjacent to ***********.

 

However, I wish to appeal against it as I believe the PCN has been issued incorrectly for the following reasons:

 

1. The signs do not give adequate warning that a penalty charge will be applied.

2. The signs do not indicate that a permit should be displayed.

3. The signs indicate that parking is reserved for Market Traders Only but do not state any times or days that the restrictions are in place.

4. The PCN was served on a day when the Market was not in operation.

5. The PCN does not properly describe the alleged contravention. This is shown as Code 16 - ‘Parked in a permit space without displaying a valid permit’. However, this code relates specifically to an On-Street Parking contravention.

 

I would also request that you provide me with a copy of the Off Street Parking Places Order covering the location where this PCN was served.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Name

Address

[monkeyboy65]

Any comments or is it ok as it is?

[monkeyboy65]

Quick update - Council have cancelled PCN....on this occassion only and added that it will be served as a warning so don't do it again.

 

Result 8)

 

 

...oh and they don't have a copy of the relevant parking order covering this location but will send it in due course...I won't hold my breath.

 

Thanks to all for help

[nero12]

Quick update - Council have cancelled PCN....on this occassion only and added that it will be served as a warning so don't do it again.

 

Result 8)

 

 

...oh and they don't have a copy of the relevant parking order covering this location but will send it in due course...I won't hold my breath.

 

Thanks to all for help

Ahh missed the letter mate but well done.

 

Post up if you get the order mate. Complain if you dont!

[lamma]

Well done, and don't let them off the hook. parking orders are public documents. refer your contact at the council to the LGA 1972 S.228 (7) (7) If a person having the custody of any such document— (a) obstructs any person entitled to inspect the document or to make a copy thereof or extract therefrom in inspecting the document or making a copy or extract, (b) refuses to give copies or extracts to any person entitled to obtain copies or extracts, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale. Local Government Act 1972 (c.70) - Statute Law Database