orange shop, faulty 4 day old phone question

[ady347]

hi people,

 

wonder if you can help, 4 days ago i purchased a pay as you go phone from a orange shop in our high street, using my debit card not credit. the phone keeps randomly switching itself off without me pressing anything. I have researched the internet and its seems a common problem with this phone, (firmware? problem) and by the sounds their is no immediate fix. this has now put me off wanting another, but i dont really want a full refund, just another phone of same value or a part refund and replacement phone.

 

i cant get hold of the shop till tuesday but i have noticed on the reciept it says " we do not offer a money back guarnatee policy" this does not effect your legal rights.

 

its a proper orange shop, and even though they dont know about my probelm till i get their on tuesday could they get out of giving a refund or part refund/exchange.

[maroondevo52]

Hi, ady.

 

Think you might get more response in the Telecoms Forum, I'll move this thread there.

 

EDIT: Thread moved, if you don't get help, I'll move you again

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[ady347]

ok thanks

[pinky1977]

Hiya

im my past i worked for a phone shop

if the phone has known faults ie big software issues

 

then any good company especially as big as orange will know the faults and should at least give you credit note

 

dont allow them to send the unit away unless they can guarantee that you will get your phone back and not a refurbished one.

 

if they have the facilites to flash a software update that should sort it

[Powlo1]

They wont give you a refund. What they can do (and Orange PLC Compliance dictates) they should do a 28Day Exchange. Which is giving you a brand new phone (same model of course).

 

If they don't have any they can send you to another Orange store who has them, or they can offer to send it to their repair centre Intek.

 

Orange don't do credit notes or anything like that.

[pinky1977]

Call me crazy but why would you want to send a phone thats under a week old to a repair centre

 

i worked for a one2one service centre .

my fear is if they go down that route then the chances of them getting their orginal phone back are slim as they usually get swapped for a refurbished unit which has newer software on it

[Powlo1]

I get what you mean Pinky, I'm just saying that's one of the options.

 

Orange are notorious for returning items and their policies surrounding them. They don't like doing 28Day Exchanges as it lowers their stock. Orange Retail is mainly just sell sell sell. As if they do do an exchange the Sales person looses their commision and affects the managers performance.

 

Intek rarely do swaps. As the guys there are paid on how many handsets they repair rather than replace (they dont get paid bonuses on replacements).

[ady347]

hi, whether orange take refunds or not, unfortunatley the goverment laws on consumer rights state the following which in a court would override oranges t&c's. We as consumers have rights!! i am contacting trading standards tuesday will post the outcome, have also emailed a letter of complaint to:-

 

executiveoffice@orange

 

pasted this from businesslink.gov.uk, highlighted the important bits.

 

The Sale of Goods Act

 

The rights of customers: goods

 

If you sell your customers goods that don't conform to contract - that aren't as described, are unfit for their purpose or of unsatisfactory quality - you are legally obliged to resolve the problem if they seek redress.

The Sale of Goods Act states that if customers want to reject faulty goods, they have to do so within a "reasonable time". A legal definition of "reasonable" is not given though - it varies from case to case and could be just a few weeks from the date of purchase.

If a customer rejects faulty goods within this "reasonable" period, they're entitled to ask for their money back. All customers can claim compensation at any time if they choose. If you sell to consumers - not other traders - they can ask for a repair or a replacement immediately (instead of asking for a refund) at any time until six years after purchase.

If you're dealing with a consumer, any repair or replacement you arrange must not cause them too much inconvenience. You may have to pay for other costs such as transportation. However, if a replacement is impossible and the goods cannot be repaired economically, or vice versa, then you can offer a full or partial refund.

In law you have a responsibility to your customer for up to six years from the date of purchase (in Scotland, five years from discovery of the problem). During this period, you are legally obliged to deal with any claim of breach of contract.

Edited May 3, 2009 by ady347

[ady347]

btw havent doctored this, just highlighted it, can anyone else see anything in this to say im not covered, i cant!

[buzby]

It's a PAYG phone - the Sale of Goods Act applies as there is no other contract in place to disrupt its application in this case.

 

Take the phone back, boxed as you received it and tell them that it keeps switching off (make sure it does this when fully charged - as they have been known to turn off when flat!

 

You are returning the handset as 'not fit for purpose' and you require a NEW and boxed replacement. You will not accept a credit note, refurbished handset or anything other than a fresh replacement - if it helps say it is for a gift, and the lack of a working handset from new had greatly embarrassed you.

[ady347]

tbh they have offered a replacement like for like but after speaking to lg customer services, reading others that have had the same problem, i have lost confident in this model of phone, so i asked for a full refund or a part refund/another phone, they refused a refund of any kind.

[postggj]

i would not acept a replacement,

you will prob get a refurbished phone,

all they do is reload the orange firmware again.

 

orange are very good at taking a good model of phone, and putting there own soft ware on it.

 

any returned phone goes to the orange ware house at chipping warden in oxfordshire, it hen goes back out as a replacement phone, its a con, people thinking they are getting new phones when they are returned ones

[jacktheband]

If the goods are faulty within a reasonable time then you are entitled to a refund. Orange classify 'a reasonable time' as 28 days. Ideally, they'd like to exchange the goods for a non-faulty phone of the same model for you and keep the 'sale'. However, if you do not wish to take an exchange then you are more than entitled to ask for a full refund. Orange can and do refund.

 

If over 28 days old then the issue gets a bit more tricky trying to prove that the phone went faulty within that initial period. However, if it is still within the 28 days and there's no doubt that it is faulty equipment then this should be a straight-forward refund if you request it. The Sale Of Goods act clearly covers this area and Orange have no such Ts&Cs which contravene this. If you have already visited the shop and not had any satisfaction i would imagine that this is more down to a knowledge-gap in this area by the member of staff rather than any Orange policy standing in the way.

[ady347]

thanks for all your help, forgot to say in my above post, the shop was open today!!! i have had the phone 6 days when the fault was reported, tomorrow will be 7 days, i am going back to the shop to see the manager (who was off) the supervisor told me no refund or part refund against another phone, only a like for like swap, and that the manager will only tell me the same thing as him (cos hes been their years!, and knows all the terms and conditions) i will post the outcome, i am also talking to trading standards in the morning and repeat what they say to the manager.

when i was their today i phoned orange (150 number) who told me i was entitled to a refund, and asked to speak to the supervisor i passed him the phone and they told him to give me a refund. he said no becuase they are orange retail and the refunds policy is different to orange direct?

 

i told him that i didnt want to return it coz i didnt like it (which i do) i said it is because it is faulty and after being faulty within a few days put me off having another, i also told him that in a court of law the sale of goods act would override any of oranges own terms and conditions.

 

i went home then back to the shop and i showed him a copy of the 1982 sale of goods act that i got from the net which he read but he still wouldnt accept it.

Edited May 4, 2009 by ady347

[buzby]

You have no right to insist on a different replacement or a credit, only a like for like swap of which it must be new. What the shop offers have to be in ADDITION to your Statuatory Rights, not in place of them. Return to the shop with an INDEPENDENT witness (not a family member) to see the manager, and introduce them as such.

 

Should they refuse to accept the phone back you need this witnessed, and your next step is to raise a Small laims Action for the full cost of the handset, plus the court fees in raising the action. It may be useful to pre-prepare a letter to give to the manager, stating that if you do not recieve a refund within 14 days, you will institute a SC action for the full cost, as they have refused to act fairly under the provisions of SoGA.

[ady347]

"You have no right to insist on a different replacement or a credit, only a like for like swap of which it must be new".

 

my statutory rights which i got from the gov website states i am entitled to my money back. their not refusing to take the phone back, they are offering a swap for another of the exact same. listed below is the actual rights doesnt this mean that i can have a refund.

 

The Sale of Goods Act states that if customers want to reject faulty goods, they have to do so within a "reasonable time". A legal definition of "reasonable" is not given though - it varies from case to case and could be just a few weeks from the date of purchase.

If a customer rejects faulty goods within this "reasonable" period, they're entitled to ask for their money back

[buzby]

'Reasonable' is never defined. However, because it is a mobile it is slightly different than if you had purchased a radio (as an example).

 

You have alluded to the fact that the problem is firmware-based and known, in which case there would not be an issue - NFFP attaches. However, it would appear the shop does not accept this, and by so doing, unless you can prove to their satisfaction that the item is indeed faulty, you are stuck.

 

In this situation, you could be seen simply as a customer attempting to change their mind because they do not like their purchase, and get something else. Because of this they will (usually) arrange for an exchange on a lick for like basis, anything else will be a slog - and if you cannot prove in the store that the handset displays the fault you say it does, then they are entitled to dig their corporate heels in and reject your claim for a refund.

 

I'm assuming the switch off scenario is random? (In that you cannot execute a set sequence of events that will cause the handset to fail?) A shop is hardly going to stare at the phone for days until it eventually crashes, as sods law dictates that probably will not happen.

 

The other issue is the SIM card, which is an additional (and different) ball game. It also has an intrinsic value over and above that of the handset. If you purchased (say) a £10 top up as part of the deal, then any usage or costs incurrent by using the handset for calls etc will not be refunded as the amounts billed were 'consumed' by the user.

 

It's not the slam dunk the Gov site leads you to believe - especially when, if you have any difficulty in proving your claim, the retailer can easily reject your assertion.

[ady347]

yeah the fault happends 3 or 4 times a day, but has done for 2 days in a row now, not bothered about the sim tbh, just looking for a refund on the phone.

thanks for your help will post the outcome tomorrow.

[ady347]

ok, went into shop today, apparantly in between my last visit and today they emailed the returns department, who told them they have to give me a refund, as soon as i walked in today i didnt have to say anything they just said "we can issue you a refund" which they did rather reluctantly and rudely.

 

so im happy!

[buzby]

Great news! Now, why couldn't they have done this in te first place - saved your blood pressure, and given you such a positive vibe you wouldn;t buy a phone from anyone else?

 

[Heads off to a darkened room]

[ady347]

they gave me a really sh**** attitude when i went in, they may as said here is your refund now get out of our shop.