Citi Card CCA Received - What a Load of Garbage!!

[diddydicky]

I think so, the people in Salford were making the same mistake as those in London, so definately a tactic.

 

There was one person in addition to yourself who I am aware to that this has happened to.

 

would you know when citi reduced the fees to 12 quid?

 

thanks

 

dick

[diddydicky]

Think it was towards the end of June/July 2006 from memory.

 

thank you

[diddydicky]

I didn't even get that from M&S Shadow...just a letter stating that they couldn't find my agreement and realised that it would be unenforceable in court!!

 

Didn't stop them passing it to a debt collector though and a stroppy chappy in customer services stated that they would put me to "strict proof" that I hadn't received my CCA (you what?? )

 

Anyhow, I digress and am in danger of hijacking my own thread!!

 

Back to Citi matters...

 

i got a letter today from M * S stating that if i disagreed that they had supplied the t & C's at the outset of the agreement then they would put me to strict proof@@

 

now there's a novel proposition- put someone to strict proof that nothing happened!

 

i wonder if the bloke that wrote the letter is taking any law exams soon?

[diddydicky]

It's a classic case in point of a little knowledge being dangerous!!

 

Obviously I can't name names on this open forum Diddy, but if it's the same guy who wrote to me then he's the one who reduced me to tears on the phone a little while back (before I found this site).

 

its actually signed by debra richards, to whom i shall point out the inherent difficulty in proving a negative!!

[diddydicky]

Because the point of getting the agreement to look at is to see what terms you actually signed up to, not to check your signature. Also I believe that this particular part was included way back when photocopiers were not available, so if anything had to be sent as a copy it was done by hand. They would not have been physically able to send you a copy with your signature, and it's just carried on from then.

 

As has been pointed out many times on here, banks will store documents - particularly for older accounts - in vast archival warehouses. Getting them out is potentially very time consuming and costly for them. Far better then from their point of view to send out something that looks like the agreement you would have signed than to spend time and money getting the real one out to copy. This also has the added benefit that if someone who does not have too much knowledge is told 'this is your agreement and it's enforceable', they may well just accept it.

 

Of course this is all well and good in the land where banks are moral and trustworthy. What we end up with is a blank 2009 agreement which is apparently what we would have signed up to in 1995.

 

This they can not do. Although they can omit sigs etc, the copy must be the same in form and content to the one you would have signed when you opened the account. They can not get away with sending anything else as it means they have not complied. They must also send you the terms relating to that agreement at the time it was signed (how else do you know that you allowed them to vary the terms which they undoubtedly will have?), and current terms as varied.

 

There are other bits and bobs but these three are the biggies.

 

Without seeing a signed agreement it is much harder to gauge what they have, but in order to be sure you need to get an SAR out to them and specifically ask for the agreement to be included. They have to send the paper you signed in this (although that still doesn't mean they will - remember, laws don't apply to banks!!). You can also go down the CPR route (again, they have to comply but frequently don't).

 

The CCA is a very good starting point though as if it ever gets to court you can show you have done everything possible to try and get hold of this agreement, and that they have been completely obstructive in your efforts.

 

One more thing - even if they do send you that blank agreement which is definitely from the time you opened your account with everything else required, they can't then turn round and say it's enforceable. For them to do that only your signature will do. They have complied with the CCA1974 if they do the above, but they have not shown that they hold an enforceable agreement for your account.

 

with respect, they are NOT obliged to send you ANY document you signed in response to a SAR request, in fact as far as i am aware they are not obliged to send ANY original document

 

the SAR requires them to send the INFORMATION they hold about you and NOT the actual documents

 

thus they can simply type it out

[diddydicky]

Sorry, you're quite right - I had Citi type it out as well:oops:

 

That said, out of about 15 SAR's, the only ones to send anything other than a copy of a document have been citi, which I think speaks volumes. Perhaps they have enough time on their hands to have some minion type out all the information rather than simply photocopying the (probably completely unenforceable) agreement?

 

In my opinion it still adds a nice bit of weight to any court appearance if they decide to type out a response rather than send you what you actually asked for, and personally I think any way you can show a judge that you've tried to get the information from them time and again can only be a good thing!

 

as you say "speaks volumes" why would any sane person spend all that time typing out something that could be copied on a photocopier within seconds................ a very good question to pose to the creditor in front of the judge methinks