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Citi Card CCA Received - What a Load of Garbage!!


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I keep reading on the web that you need a balance of more than £2,000 (sometimes £1,500) to challange the enforceability of a CCA...is this correct or is this just that Claims Companies are not interested in dealing with debts below this value?

 

I can see the upper limit of £25k in the Act but have yet to find a lower limit.

 

I have one card with Citi with a balance less than £1.5k and they are starting to kick off.

 

My first thought was to CCA them but don't want them laughing in my face if for some reason the Act doesn't apply.

 

Anybody able to clear this up for me please?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Received this from Citi in response to my CCA request plus 11 pages of fairly recent terms and conditions...any suggestions before I put the account into dispute?? This started life as a Peoples card in 2000.

 

 

ccaresponseCITIcropped.jpg

Edited by WelshMam2009

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Send this; ;)

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your companies current Terms and conditions. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues.

In either case, please confirm that you have, in your possession, a credit agreement that is in all ways fully compliant with the Consumer Credit At 1974, as amended, and the subsequent regulations made there under.

For the avoidance of doubt, if you are in possession of such a document, but are unable to supply me with a true copy of it, please outline your reasons why you are unable to supply it to me in your reply.

Further more, I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as I have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.

 

Obviously if the agreement is improperly executed I would be entitled to ask the Court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement. (s.142(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974)

 

I must stress this part of my request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore an unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by XXX

 

You'll just need to amend to suit as I haven't seen what they have sent you.

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You'll just need to amend to suit as I haven't seen what they have sent you.

 

Thank you Car :D

 

Essentially it is just an 11 page long computer print out of what I believe to be fairly recent terms and conditions...just thought it was a bit much to post on here in full!!

 

Absolutely nothing with any personal info on and/or specifically relating to my account. Just a fairly generic document which refers to a £12 late fee payment etc. My original agreement was with a Peoples card which was later taken over by Citi.

 

Since entering into a DMP with Citi, some 3 years ago, I haven't even been issued with a new credit card so won't have received any new terms on a card carrier as they claim!! In 2006 I'm sure their fees were £25 as I recall challenging them at the time and getting them reimbursed to my account. Based on this, am supposing that the supplied terms and conditions are post 2006.

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I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by XXX
Lol...for a moment there I thought I had to add kisses to the end of my letter to get them to be nice to me!! :oops:

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

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It is likely that Citi maybe digging themselves further into an almighty big hole regarding what they are doing in response to requests for executed agreements s78(1) CCA.

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Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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It is likely that Citi maybe digging themselves further into an almighty big hole regarding what they are doing in response to requests for executed agreements s78(1) CCA.

 

I personally believe that it is misleading to say the least and downright unlawful.

 

To be honest, if I hadn't found this forum Enron, I would probably have been at a loss as to how to challenge them, even knowing that they were wrong!

 

Lets hope more Citi customers find their way to this site ;)

 

Thanks to everyone for their advice and support :cool:

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

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I've got all the regulations, and what they are saying isnt valid.

 

Its quite telling that when approached by Trading Standards Citis legal representatives lied rather than admit to what they were doing.

 

There are certainly some big issues here with which I have been conferring with my MP about.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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At least you got a response Welshmam:rolleyes:

 

OH's Citicard (which also started life as Peoples Bank) was passed (sold) to 1st Credit then managed by Connaught Collections.

 

I CCA'd Connaught in September last year. After a while I reminded them nothing had arrived, and they replied saying they didn't hold the documents relating to the account and had passed it onto 1st Credit. Some time after that, 1st Credit wrote and said they didn't hold any documents and had to pass the request back to the OC (a little odd considering OH has a letter stating they have bought the account lock stock and barrel and that Citi no longer have any records relating to it).

 

I've still had diddly squat from that, so about 7/8 weeks ago I SAR'd Citi for everything they hold - notes, memos, statements, letters, and a copy of the original agreement, or a reason why they couldn't send it, and proof of that reason.

 

43 days after the request, OH got a letter asking for more info as they weren't sure of his identity. To my knowledge both Connaught and 1st Credit have written to them about OH, so they are well aware of the address, AND, they used his full account number on the 'who are you' letter! Obviously I told them that would be a tad silly if they didn't know who he was, so stop playing silly buggers and send the info, and today he's received the SAR.

 

It includes 6 years of statements (OH has had the account since at least '00, so how can they prove the bought forward balance if they don't show the earlier statements?), and a tabled page of the information that was on the agreement. I mean a printed page of his name, dob, job title etc.

 

This is apparently because 's7(1)© only requires a data controller to provide a copy of the information constituting any personal data, not the actual document on which the personal data is recorded; therefore we have supplied a copy of the information on the agreement/application.'

 

They have also not provided him with copies of the t's and c's as these 'fall outside the definition of personal data' for the purposes of the DPA1998. Despite the fact I specifically asked for them.

 

I'm beginning to think they aren't being as completely open and honest with me as they could be...:)

 

Anyway, I hope your battle goes rather more quickly than OH's seems to be! I'll be watching with interest:)

 

Lexis:)

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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If its a Peoples Bank account you have they likely only have 1 side of the agreement.

 

In my instance Trading Standards got me the one side (the front), there were problems with the titling of the agreement and that the Credit Limit is not listed. The reverse with all the prescribed terms is missing, the s78(1) CCA request is not complete.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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If its a Peoples Bank account you have they likely only have 1 side of the agreement.

 

In my instance Trading Standards got me the one side (the front), there were problems with the titling of the agreement and that the Credit Limit is not listed. The reverse with all the prescribed terms is missing, the s78(1) CCA request is not complete.

 

That's reassuring to know Enron :D

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

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Remember hearing that Citi had problems with alot of their older agreements.

 

It would appear that this could be the reasoning behind misleading customers that recent Terms & Conditions are the executed agreement - which clearly they are not.

 

Citi do not want it becoming well known that alot of their earlier agreements have issues.

 

From my personal point of view, this has never been about escaping any duties conveyed on me, but with a creditor that is taking the **** I am certainly not going to continue making payments where I am not duty bound or legally obligated.

 

My eventual aim is to come to a negotiated settlement on the provisor my credit file is fixed, however going to let the various things run where I have registerred complaints before doing that.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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I had a People's Bank CC many moons ago which Citi snaffled up. When I CCAed them they sent the 'no agreement and not seeking to enforce' letter.

 

I shoved that back at them 'up to the third lacehole' quoting S172 of the CCA74 (statements by creditors being binding upon them) and stopped paying.

 

A little correspondence to and fro with the famed Brian Smith (initials BS - coincidence or what?) and a couple of threat-o-grams from 1st Credit later it has gone very quiet (over a year now).

 

I suspect they have realised that the Peoples Bank portfolio they bought isn't worth sh*t in legal terms.

 

Oh Dear - How sad -Never mind!

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I suspect they have realised that the Peoples Bank portfolio they bought isn't worth sh*t in legal terms.

 

Oh Dear - How sad -Never mind!

 

:D Thank you so much for your comment SteveH...you've just made my day!! Calls for a glass of wine me thinks!!

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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At least you got a response Welshmam:rolleyes:

 

OH's Citicard (which also started life as Peoples Bank) was passed (sold) to 1st Credit then managed by Connaught Collections.

 

I CCA'd Connaught in September last year. After a while I reminded them nothing had arrived, and they replied saying they didn't hold the documents relating to the account and had passed it onto 1st Credit. Some time after that, 1st Credit wrote and said they didn't hold any documents and had to pass the request back to the OC (a little odd considering OH has a letter stating they have bought the account lock stock and barrel and that Citi no longer have any records relating to it).

 

I've still had diddly squat from that, so about 7/8 weeks ago I SAR'd Citi for everything they hold - notes, memos, statements, letters, and a copy of the original agreement, or a reason why they couldn't send it, and proof of that reason.

 

43 days after the request, OH got a letter asking for more info as they weren't sure of his identity. To my knowledge both Connaught and 1st Credit have written to them about OH, so they are well aware of the address, AND, they used his full account number on the 'who are you' letter! Obviously I told them that would be a tad silly if they didn't know who he was, so stop playing silly buggers and send the info, and today he's received the SAR.

 

It includes 6 years of statements (OH has had the account since at least '00, so how can they prove the bought forward balance if they don't show the earlier statements?), and a tabled page of the information that was on the agreement. I mean a printed page of his name, dob, job title etc.

 

This is apparently because 's7(1)© only requires a data controller to provide a copy of the information constituting any personal data, not the actual document on which the personal data is recorded; therefore we have supplied a copy of the information on the agreement/application.'

 

They have also not provided him with copies of the t's and c's as these 'fall outside the definition of personal data' for the purposes of the DPA1998. Despite the fact I specifically asked for them.

 

I'm beginning to think they aren't being as completely open and honest with me as they could be...:)

 

Anyway, I hope your battle goes rather more quickly than OH's seems to be! I'll be watching with interest:)

 

Lexis:)

 

Had the same printed out personal information and the pointer to the Data Protection act. Took mine out online so did expect something like this though.

 

PmW

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Had the same printed out personal information and the pointer to the Data Protection act. Took mine out online so did expect something like this though.

 

PmW

 

Mine was taken out at a service station PmW so they should have something hand written!! :p

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

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OH's would have been a form too, so a little dodgy methinks:)

 

I'm glad (well, not glad, but you know what I mean) that someone else has had this print out though - I thought OH's was a new way they were doing it, as everyone else seems to have been sent some t's and c's.

 

One thing though - I specifically stated in the SAR that I wanted copies of original documents only, so can they still hide behind parts of the DPA, or do they have to comply when asked directly for something specific?

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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OH's would have been a form too, so a little dodgy methinks:)

 

I'm glad (well, not glad, but you know what I mean) that someone else has had this print out though - I thought OH's was a new way they were doing it, as everyone else seems to have been sent some t's and c's.

 

One thing though - I specifically stated in the SAR that I wanted copies of original documents only, so can they still hide behind parts of the DPA, or do they have to comply when asked directly for something specific?

 

Could be worth a complaint to the ICO I suppose but I think at the time I looked up the relevant quoted section in the DPA and it did say they were entitled to transpose the information into another format to give me... as Enron said on my thread though, begs the question why would anyone want to sit down and copy out the data from a scanned form onto a word document :D:D

 

They obviously know the paper agreements arent worth the paper they are printed on, why they've done it to me as it was an electronic agreement I have no idea....:confused:

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Could be worth a complaint to the ICO I suppose but I think at the time I looked up the relevant quoted section in the DPA and it did say they were entitled to transpose the information into another format to give me... as Enron said on my thread though, begs the question why would anyone want to sit down and copy out the data from a scanned form onto a word document :D:D

 

They obviously know the paper agreements arent worth the paper they are printed on, why they've done it to me as it was an electronic agreement I have no idea....:confused:

 

ICO only have jurisdiction over requests made under DPA and won't do anything about it PMW as the request was made under CCA. So I have to complain to OFT.

 

My argument is that whilst they may not have to supply an exact copy, they do have to supply a true copy and they have failed to do this in my opinion.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

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Could be worth a complaint to the ICO I suppose but I think at the time I looked up the relevant quoted section in the DPA and it did say they were entitled to transpose the information into another format to give me... as Enron said on my thread though, begs the question why would anyone want to sit down and copy out the data from a scanned form onto a word document :D:D

 

They obviously know the paper agreements arent worth the paper they are printed on, why they've done it to me as it was an electronic agreement I have no idea....:confused:

 

That is definitely very strange! And it only goes to affirm the idea that they are staffed by numpties:rolleyes:

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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ICO only have jurisdiction over requests made under DPA and won't do anything about it PMW as the request was made under CCA. So I have to complain to OFT.

 

My argument is that whilst they may not have to supply an exact copy, they do have to supply a true copy and they have failed to do this in my opinion.

 

Ah sorry my mistake, I got my transposed info back from a SAR request.

 

PmW

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