Arrow/evershers CCJ+CO over old MBNA debt

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Reggie76!

 

Sorry to hear this, you must Appeal.

 

Chill out, but try and make as many notes as you can ASAP while this is still fresh in your mind.

 

You have 21 days to get your Appeal in, and there are many more people lurking now who are willing and able to help you.

 

You are the 2nd Case Today that has been shot down in an almost identical fashion, and in both cases the Judges were wrong, badly wrong. Here's the other one:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/208173-having-rankine-american-express.html#post2273613

 

This is what you must get going ASAP, my advice is to really crack on with it, as the 21 Day Deadline is soon gone:

 

(1) Get a Transcript of the Judgement, and a Transcript of the whole Hearing too. They are usually handled in two bits, the Judgment has to be submitted to the Judge for Approval, and there can only ever be one Judgement Transcription. I can recommend a good Transcriber who is on the list of Transcribers that have to be used.

 

This will cost, depending on the time it all took.

 

You may be able to get those Fees back, if on a low Income.

 

(2) Establish your Grounds for Appeal. We will all help there.

 

(3) Establish the correct Route for your Appeal. We will all help there.

 

(4) If the Judge refused your Appeal, get that in writing via Form N460, that's a little bit of paper the duffer should've completed anyway at the end of the Hearing, that's if he refused your Appeal there and then.

 

(5) Appellant's Notice N161. We will help with that too.

 

The rest is just spade work, thrashing out how to tackle this. Ideally, you need a good Barrister. But you may have time to organise that, as Appeals can take quite a while to come to a head, and that time may help you to gather the funds.

 

But right now, have a blurdy big drink!

 

Don't get mad.

 

Get even.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Pedross!

 

Please do not think that I am picking on your point I am sure that your input will be very welcome by all posters but I am just trying to understand the reasoning.

I think what needs to be appreciated is the bankers can do anything they want.

 

In the same way that they can issue an original but defective Default Notice and then Terminate...they can just as easily re-issue a 2nd Default Notice and re-Terminate.

 

But just because they can, does not mean it's going to work!

 

Next time you are in your Car on the Motorway, take it to 120mph for a while. There, see, you can do it. It can be done.

 

However, that is not the same as saying the 70mph speed limit no longer exists.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited May 14, 2010 by banker_rhymes_with
Typo

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello DD!

 

...that comment will be on his tape and that alone is grounds for an appeal i beleive (and i am not even legally qualified)!

 

Indeed it will.

 

It's recorded proof that the Judge found the Default Notice was defective, but then misdirected himself thereafter.

 

That's the primary grounds for an Appeal, and it should be a powerful point that should win the Appeal in the next match.

 

They won the first battle, but not the war. Losing at Appeal will be far worse for them than losing the first time out, so once a few hard hitting Appeals go through, I suspect the banks/DCAs may be a little more careful about seeking an easy victory by stealth the first time out.

 

Appeals can set precedent. In a funny sort of way, they are potentially defeating themselves in the long run.

 

Good.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Reggie76!

 

It seems daunting at this stage, but it's not as bad as all that as you work through the stages to get the Appeal underway.

 

This is the bit of CPR you need to start reading:

 

PART 52 - APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is the CPR Supplement that goes with the above:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

First is to get a Transcript of the Judgement going. That should not be too expensive, maybe £100-£150 approx. You will need that for the Appeal. That needs Form EX107. Here's the link:

 

EX107

 

All that is, is a Form where you state what the Claim was, and say which Transcriber you will like to use. I can recommend a very good one, but I need to advise the name via PM not in open Forum. The person is listed in the Approved List of Court Transcribers and has been very helpful to a few Caggers.

 

Also, get the Court to chase up the Judge to complete Form N460. You do not need to get that, it is one the Judge should've done that straight after the Hearing. He has to do it, so chase him, because he does not have a choice. That Form is simple, and just sets out his reasons for refusing the Appeal. Those reasons may also be mentioned in the Judgment as well.

 

There will be an N24 Order that will appear soon too, that's a bit like a Precis of the Judgment. You'll need that. Should arrive in the next few days anyway.

 

You should be able to get that lot underway in maybe a day or two at most, then you can work on getting your N161 Appellant's Notice ready.

 

The N161 Appellant's Notice is just a Form, many on CAG will help you with that, so don't worry. Here's the link:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice

 

I would also advise, as I think Rhia may have done, that you try and get a Transcript of the rest of the Hearing. That will cost more, maybe £300-£400. But could prove invaluable. It may well reveal other issues you missed on the day.

 

If money is tight, you may be able to get the Transcription Fees back if you quality. See CPR Part 52, 5.17 and 5.18 (that's all in the 2nd link above).

 

That just leaves the key issues of:

 

(1) Grounds for Appeal:

 

This is the main bit that you need to get sorted within the 21 days, and have it ready to go along with your Appeal Bundle.

 

The main initial documents, provided you get it in on time, will comprise the following bits:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice (including Grounds for Appeal)

N24 Order

N460 Reasons for Appeal Refusal

Transcript of Judgment

 

It is VIP that you get that lot in within 21 days. Otherwise you risk having to make an Appeal Out of Time, which is a PITA. Get it in on time, and you then have a further 14 days to follow on with your Appeal Bundle.

 

That Bundle will include your Skeleton Argument and a routine pile of bumf that relates to the Judgment you are Appealing. Mostly docs you had with you the first time around, so the Appeal can be considered for permission to Appeal.

 

(2) Route for Appeal:

 

This is just technical and will depend on what Judge you had, and the class of the Judgment they made. It is all listed in the 2nd link above, or just click here:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

OK, don't get too stressed, as this could well be pay back time, and your chance to put right what the buggers did wrong the first time out.

 

Get this right, and the opposition will be more worried than you are right now once they know you are Appealing.

 

The most this will cost you right now is the Judgment Transcription. You can always back out before the 21 day deadline and just accept the original Judgment, so keep going and use the time to decide before the 21 days are up.

 

However, don't waste any time getting going, as 21 days is not long and you cannot afford to waste any of it.

 

Once the Appeal has been lodged, then you have 14 days to get the Skeleton Argument done, which is key, but 2 weeks is a long time.

 

After that, it could take weeks/months to get to Appeal, and in that time you may be able to find the money for a Barrister who will take it over and take the battle back to them. If you win, you will get the original Judgment overturned, and you should get back all of your Costs, both the Appeal, and the original Hearing.

 

A Barrister can later tweak your Appellant's Notice and your Skeleton, so your main aim is to get them in and good enough to get permission to Appeal...the Barrister can make them better later if you end up being able to afford a Barrister down the line.

 

But there is no pressure, this has to be your own decision. It is a tough call, and this next step is not for the feint hearted. Do not be pushed into this, as that is not my intention at all.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[banker_rhymes_with]

Personally, to pay out more costs and £2000 for a barrister to appeal a £6k debt is not a viable option when the debt has been proven. That's just my opinion and I'm not a quitter but you have to know where to stop and what's best for you.

That is what they rely upon, sadly, and why the system allows so many poor Judgments to slip under the radar at County Court level.

 

99% of Litigant's in Person just cannot take it any further, despite the strength of their Case. Duffer or plain biased Judges know this only too well.

 

Personally, I would fight. But, that would be my decision, and I would do so taking on the risks that go with it.

 

There are no easy answers. An Appeal would risk further costs and Debt but, equally, it can offer a complete solution and a chance to put right a wrong. The one good thing is that the chances of getting a fairer Hearing at Appeal are greater than at County Court level...it's not guaranteed, but at Appeal the focus is on key issues, so the Judge(s) tend to be a little more awake and know the issues are under a more searching spotlight.

 

You may not be able to afford a Barrister right now, but the position may change before your Case gets to Appeal. The 21 Days is just the Deadline to lodge the Appeal...it won't kick off 2 days later. You will have 14 days thereafter to submit your Skeleton, so it's likely that the Appeal won't even be properly looked at for at least 6 weeks from the original Judgment.

 

The first 21 days are the key, blow that Deadline and you are fighting the Appeal as a rear-guard action, plus the Skeleton has to go in straight away if the Appeal is lodged Out of Time.

 

Handled methodically, 21 days is long enough, and the 14 days for the Skeleton is a safe amount of time to get it right. The Appeal will halt the original Judgment, so there will be nothing to pay while the Appeal is running. Obviously, once it all comes to a head, then someone will be paying for the extra costs of the Appeal...all being well, that will not be you. All not being well, that could well be you.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Reggie76!

 

Another point to bear in mind, is that putting forward a well constructed Appeal may well have the effect of making the other side consider a compromise, i.e. to try and stop the Appeal from going ahead.

 

As mentioned earlier, I think, they will not want to see an Appeal go ahead if it looks like they will lose. That could set an inconvenient Precedent, or at least provide others with a persuasive Judgment that would be used against them and other bankers relying upon the fog that is the County Court system.

 

A bit of clarity is not what they want at all, especially if it nails an area that is conveniently lacking in any Case history to support either position.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited July 12, 2009 by banker_rhymes_with
Can't Type, or Spell!