Virgin Card - Mbna Cca Is It Valid??

[bozalt]

Hi

 

I hope some one will be able to advise me regarding the CCA I have been sent by MBNA.

I have looked at information regarding CCA's

and to my untrained eye although blurry what I have received appears valid.

 

I originally had financial problems around ten months ago with an account balance of £6200

despite making payments of £40.00 per month

 

MBNA have added charges and the balance is now £7600.00

the account has been passed to 1st credit.

 

MBNA had offered to settle for £2700 but would not confirm as F & F in writing,

1st Credit now say they would not offer any reduction and want higher repayments.

 

I would be grateful for any assistance some of the more experienced on this board can offer.

 

Many thanks and happy New Year to all!

 

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2259/mbnaccafrontho6hs4.jpg

 

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6835/mbnaccabackfc0.jpg

 

I know this is similar to Muffintops thread to which I have subscribed

and is great for novice's like me so I will be using that for info

but some advice regarding this would be great.

 

 

The CCA was sent to me together with the current terms and conditions which appear to be undated and stipulate charges different to those shown the scan of the back of the agreement/application.

 

 

As per 'Banker Ryhmes With' reply to Muffintop the terms on the agreement I signed appear to be pre-contractural so look like a combined application/agreement form

although it does show the credit limit granted,

 

 

should I reply asking to see the original copy of the agreement?

As the balance claimed by MBNA is over £5k will this make it easier

or harder for them to take me to court and is it more serious?

 

Once again, many thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

[bozalt]

Thanks Muffintop thats excellent, useful and much appreciated information , my signature is on the front sheet but I removed it to avoid identification. I will follow your thread and watch for updates.

 

Good luck with the battle!

 

Thanks

 

ps. Images were too large so have removed them!

[bozalt]

Hi Angel

 

Thanks for your reply, they do look similar indeed.

 

I have been paying a reduced amount for about 9 months now but have stopped these and placed the account in dispute.

 

I have subscribed to your thread but wondered if you have a copy of the letter you sent in relation the CCA you received so I could send something similar?

 

Thanks for your help!

[bozalt]

Thanks to you both, I will send a letter disputing validity of the CCA and see what happens.

 

Watch this space!!!

 

:)

[bozalt]

With the information kindly provided by Muffintop and Angel I sent the following letter to MBNA via 1st credit and received acknowledgement but still no reply although it hasnt stopped first credit from calling me.

 

__________________________________________________________

Thank you for your letter dated XX and the attached document in response to my statutory request for a true copy of the properly executed Regulated Consumer Credit Card Agreement.

The alleged agreement appears to be unenforceable for the following reasons;

 

1. The document is an application form and does not carry the correct title if it is to be considered suitable as becoming an agreement once properly executed. The missing title being 'Credit Card Agreement Regulated by The Consumer Credit Act 1974.'

 

2 The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the properly executed agreement that contains all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both the creditor and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreements contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. What you have sent for the alleged account is a document, which is illegible and therefore not compliant with the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557), it is also unsigned by the creditor. Your attention is drawn to regulation 2 (1) which sets out how copy documents must be presented.

3. Notwithstanding the fact that the documents sent are illegible and incomplete they do not appear clear for me to read if they contain the prescribed terms contained within Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553). Without production of the compliant executed agreements I am unable to asses if I am indeed liable for any alleged debts, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreements were ‘properly executed’. The agreement provided does not show the prescribed terms within the four corners and furthermore nowhere on the front is there any reference to terms and conditions being on the reverse or on a separate page.

 

You should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

*You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

*You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

*You may not pass the account to a third party.

*You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

*You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit including but not limited to Trading Standards, the Office of Fair Trading, the Information Commissioners Office, The Financial Ombudsman Service and my MP .

 

If you have the original of my alleged agreements available I request that I be allowed to view them at your offices so I can verify them as the alleged documents that I signed.

 

I must also remind you that any court action you may choose to take would require you to produce the original of the alleged agreements.

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the next seven days.

 

Until such time as you comply with my requests, the alleged account remains in dispute.

 

 

__________________________________________________________

 

MBNA have already defaulted my account, does anybody have any ideas what their next course of action would be???

 

Thanks

[bozalt]

Hello experienced Caggers

 

I received the attached letter, reproduce below, from 1st Credit in response to my letter querying the validity of the CCA supplied and legibility.

 

It seems that MBNA/1st Credit now want me to supply a copy of the alleged agreement and claim the onus is not on them to provide a true copy.

 

I would really appreciate any assistance is drafting a reply, I am inclined to think this proves they do not hold a valid CCA that could be produced in court.

 

Many thanks:D

 

I ^credit 1Osm Cnibdus LBmuiiltdeidniT he

Lesbourne Road Reigate Surrey RH2 7JP

Tel: 0870 164204 Fax: 0870 1642071

Dear

Ref:

Assigned account from MBNA - £XXXX

We refer to your letter dated XXXXXXX.

We have increased the size of the document for ease of reference and enclose a copy. We will deal with the matters raised in the same order as your letter under reply.

1. That wording is on the document.

2. The prescribed terms are present in our view. You will have received a copy of the agreement in 2003 and we would appreciate receiving a true copy of that document from you.

3. Your statements conflict inasmuch as you state the document to be illegible but specifically allege it to be deficient in certain respects.

4. We do not have nor do we have to produce the original agreement.

5. We have applied for the background statements on the account and will provide these as soon as they become available.

Yours faithfully Compliance Officer

Registered No. 3752940 in England and Wales Registered Office: Hill House, 1 Little New Street, London EC4A 3TR

 

1st credit reply(1).pdf

[bozalt]

Hi Angel

 

Thats exactly what I thought I have searched the forums and havent found anyone who received a similar letter.

 

Not quite sure how to respond as far as I can see they are unwilling/unable to provide a legible copy that adheres to Consumer Credit Regulations.

 

I am hoping some one with more experience than I, can advise how to respond as I guess the next step is for them to take legal action or resort to constant phone calls again???

 

Many thanks

[bozalt]

Thanks iftl, I am really hoping I can send a letter that brings this all to a conclusion you would think they would at least attempt to reply in a sensible manner.

 

I received a call asking me to pay and for information as to who was advising me, I told them it was none of their business so will await their next move.

[bozalt]

Hi Sunflower

 

Do you have a thread of your own, I would be interested to see what response you get from MBNA???

 

Thanks for your advice!

 

[bozalt]

Thanks Citizne B and Sunflower, I am certainly not the fastest to respond myself I think its a habit I developed after dealing with MBNA!!

 

I think at the moment I am going to ignore 1st Credit and see what background information they present, then hit them with the Sars and then a reclaim for charges to MBNA.

[bozalt]

Hi Iftl

 

In my dealings with MBNA I have found that they continually sned letters, cards and make constant calls and continue to add charges no matter what you say or do, I hope that they will stop harrssing you now, have you sent them a harrasment letter yet?

 

I think from what you have said regarding the application and from what I have read on other threads this was certainly the way MBNA issued cards so you are on to something there.

 

With regards to court cases from what I can make out the costs of issuing for over £5k are prohibitive for the issuing party if the correct procedures have not been followed and the case is lost. Based on my contract and many others this may make MBNA think twice before attempting legal action.

 

Are MBNA putting a late payment and overlimit fee charge on your account each month?

 

Good luck with it all.

 

B

[bozalt]

Hi IFTL

 

Hopefully they will get bored of calling soon, they stopped calling and texting me eventually but your right they rarely bother asking security questions.

 

From what I can work out the accounts are assigned to a collecter on a monthly basis so they just go through the same process each month until the account is passed to a DCA.

 

They do tend to ignore all guidelines, procedures and laws and do what seems to suit them, silly buggers. Its bizarre they sent you a new card when you are in dispute over your account.

 

I would hold on to that and see what defence they have when challenging their claims that they have a strict responsible lending policy!

 

I have decided to ignore MBNA and 1st credit until they are in a position to resolve the issues I raised, should they go legal I will have the makings of a solid defence. I find it bizarre that they offered to settle for 40%(partial settlement) of my account balance six months ago but now will not even accept reduced payments.

 

Its amazing that so many ex MBNA clients are experiencing this treatment and yet none of the credit trade publications or bodies are doing anything to protect consumers.

[bozalt]

I have now received a number of copy statements, not sure what this means all though they were alluded to in the letter received from 1st credit.

 

All I can see from the statements is that since telling MBNA that I had financial difficulties they have added about £2k in interest and charges.

 

Still wondering what they are intending to do next or what my next move should be............

 

:rolleyes:crumbs what happens next??

[bozalt]

I have now received a number of copy statements, not sure what this means all though they were alluded to in the letter received from 1st credit.

 

All I can see from the statements is that since telling MBNA that I had financial difficulties they have added about £2k in interest and charges.

 

Still wondering what they are intending to do next or what my next move should be............

 

:rolleyes:crumbs what happens next??

 

Well today I discovered what happens next, I received the attached letter,(also reproduced below) this is a bit of a worrying development!

 

 

_________________________________________________________

We act for 1st Credit (Finance) Ltd who have asked us to write to you concerning this seriously overdue account.You will appreciate that the debt has been formally assigned to our client by MBNA EUROPE BANK LTD

 

Unless full payment is made to our client within 7 days from the date of this letter we will be advising our client as to the most appropriate course of action. This could take the form of the issue of proceedings against you in the County Court.

Should that step be taken our client's claim will include statutory interest. Court fees and solicitors costs. If judgment is obtained against you then, after a period of 28 days, it will automatically be registered at the Register of County Court Judgments and may have an adverse affect on your credit rating.

 

We have also been informed by our client that they believe you have an interest in the above property. We have been instructed that if our client secures a County Court Judgment against you the next action would be to seek to enforce this by way of a Charging Order against your property.

 

If we are successful in obtaining a Charging Order it is possible that our client may instruct us to apply to the court for an Order for Sale of your property.

Alternatively our client may instruct us to issue a Statutory Demand which if you fail to comply with, could lead to a Bankruptcy Order being made against you.

 

Please note that we are not instructed to enter into correspondence with you prior to the commencement of legalproceeding. All payments and communications should be made directly to our client whose address is:-

 

Credit LTD. PO BOX 278. REIGATE, RH2 7WB. Please ensure that you quote their account number on all correspondence. If you are unable to make payment in full you must contact 1st Credit Ltd immediately, their telephone number is 0870 164 2045 your reference is

 

If you have appointed a third party please pass them this letter or contact them. The letter has been sent directly to you to ensure your prompt receipt.

LCS Solicitors is the legal division of 1st Credit Limited, registered in England and Wales number 3752940 Registered Office: Hill House, 1 Little New Street, London, EC4A 3TR

_________________________________________________________

 

 

My partner is very upset about the prospect of charging orders etc, particularly as one of my other creditors are already taking court action and threatening this. My propertyy has about £10k equity which by rights belongs to my partner although our Deed Of Trust confiming this has expired.

 

I would be really grateful if anyne could direct or advise on how I should respond to this? I was going to send a SARS to MBNA but also want a reply to get LCS/1st Credit off my back. I know the CCA is dodgy but am really worried about how to respond to this latest threat.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

B

MBNA.pdf

[bozalt]

Thanks Gaz that is much appreciated, I take it that until they respond they would be unable to take legal action?

 

Or if they did I could use the points raised in the letter and the actual letter being sent as my defence? TOgether with the fact they have been unable to respond to my initial queries in relation to the CCA?

 

I am very grateful to you and Sunflower for your advice and support, its reassuring that nice people are still around!

 

Thanks:-)

[bozalt]

Thanks IFTL, I am hoping there are enough defects in their CCA to make them have a rethink, they defaulted my account pretty quickly so I am not too concerned about my credit rating being damaged any further I think of my ten creditors totalling £60k+ seven of them have registered defaults but only MBNA and A & L have been unreasonable. Do you have a thread of your own that I can follow and give support at?

 

Gazza112 - I am subbing to your thread, thanks again for the letter and all your advice!

 

Sunflower - Once again thanks for your support, I hope they mean 'may' rather than will for you!

 

I will send the letter tomorrow which will hopefully slow them down, if they offered to settle for £2K like they did when MBNA had the account I would be happy!

 

Thanks for everyones advice and support and hope that you are all successful in getting the resolution you deserve. I will update my thread when I hear from them.

 

Enjoy the sun!

 

B

Edited April 5, 2009 by bozalt

[bozalt]

Hi Bozalt,

 

I have looked at your agreement carefully and it is extremely similar to my agreement.

 

pt has already touched on this - but I dont think it will hurt to mention it again.

 

It is my opinion that your agreement is unenforceable, based on the fact that they have failed to state the interest rate.

 

If you read sections 1e and 1g VERY carefully,

 

1e: is a list that tells you the interest rate for transactions made within the promotional period (in this case the first 6 months)

 

Then it goes on to say - "in all cases we will then charge interest as shown in paragraph 1g ... "

 

Breach #1:

Now when you refer to paragraph 1g, there is a chart that states APR and monthly rates for three credit limits, £1,000, 3,000 and 5,000

 

The Credit Limit on your agreement is £4,000.

 

Breach #2:

Section 2 explains interest rate charges for handling fees etc and also refers back to section 1g - and therefore doesn't cover your credit limit amount.

 

I am sure there are other issues - especially the section on repayments. I am confident it is missing all the prescribed info - possibly because it refers to interest charges.

 

hope this helps.

 

 

Thanks Toto that is very useful to know, does anyone know if this has been tested yet? I may well be needing to form a defense and it would be useful to quote any known cases. There appear to be a number of issues with CCA's like ours, if they are so sure it would stand up in court you would think they would let me see the original!

[bozalt]

Hi Bozalt

if you do go for a reduced settlement with them make sure they mar k it as a final one as MBNA and other pondlife DCAs are beggers for insisiting on marking it as a partial settlemrent and then selling rest of debt onto someone else and the horrendous cycle starts again,as someonn else chases you for rest of debt:mad:

 

Thanks sunflower they are properly cheeky, even if they agree not to pass the debt on and no one will chase I bet they do every time.

 

They tried that about five times before they passed the account to 1st Credit, I even have it in writing via email and letter offering to settle for between £2k and £2.9k and was going to do it but they would never confirm in writing f&f so it never happened.

 

[bozalt]

hiya bozalt and all

 

im just trying to catch up with you all

 

wow you miss a few days here and the threads get longer and longer lol

 

you lot chat for england,

 

anyways

 

if you are considering full and final, maybe an offer from a solicitor will make them sit up and take notice and their responce would then have to go back to the solicitor, im guessing if its worded in the right way and you want all adverse info off from your file and it s showing as Settled etc and no longer will be sold on or chased by anyone else, might be worth chatting to a solicitor that way you do have more of a legal standing perhaps only my opinion at the moment, but thinking of this for myself as another alternative

 

maybe the cheque coming also from another person that they have paid your debt for you, not directly from you,,,

 

off to do dinner said that already about 20 mins ago,,,lol

 

must go catch up laters angel x

 

 

Hi Angel

 

That is a good idea, I will see if Citizens advice have a free legal advice session and perhaps get some guidance there. I have sent the letter that Gaz provided so will see what happens.

 

Today I also notice that the default I received refers to paragraph 8 on the therms and conditions, there is no paragraph 8 on the CCA although there is on the current T&C's that they sent through.

 

I have never been provided with the T&C's that applied at the date the contract/application was signed. I have sent a SARS to MBNA but I am guessing that as paragraph 8 is not shown on my CCA that this invalidates the default.

 

If anyone can advise regarding this I would be extremely grateful.

 

Thanks and enjoy your easter!

[bozalt]

Hi Sunflower

 

You won't find paragraph 8, On the aplication form if your lucky to have one. It says please read Paragraph 11 before signing, if you can find that lol.

 

Gaz

 

 

And MBNA still manage to obtain judgments and register defaults when their letters refer to paragraphs that are not on your original agreement and have not provided the original T&C's???

 

Mental, how is that allowed to happen???

[bozalt]

Hi B

 

On the up to date T&C's the paragraph 8 has relevance its about paying your balance and penalties if you dont.

 

GG

 

 

Hi GG

 

Thats excellent news for you and for all of MBNA's victims. This kind of misrepresentation will surely go in your favour.

 

I am guessing MBNA have not kept copies of historical t&c's and as they have so many agreements they are in a confused mess.

 

I have subbed to your thread and wish you the best of luck.

 

Cheers

 

B

[bozalt]

Thanks Landy for this informaton it is much appreciated, we all appear to be in the same boat regarding DNs. Reading the other posts from Angel, GG and underdog it is apparent that nobody has ever been provided with historic terms and conditions when requested, surely these are the ones that are applicable???

 

I am also confused as to why they refer to the 'agreement' rather than T & C's in their DN's but surely this must count in our favour!

 

Thanks everyone for the info and I hope you had a great weekend, back to work tomorrow!

[bozalt]

Hi Guys,

 

Apologies for hijacking your thread Bozalt, but thought as we were already discussing these issues here it was best to continue in the same place;)

 

 

 

Hi Landy

 

No worries, all information is useful.

 

Cheers

 

B

[bozalt]

I have received a response for my MBNA SARs request, requesting a copy of a signed passport or driving licence but i dont want to give either. I sent the standard SARS letter and this appears to be the standard MBNA response. I would welcome any advice on how to resolve this.

 

I seem to remember Sunflower or Angel had a similar problem and went through security over the phone. If anyone has a copy of the letter I should send that would be much appreciated.

 

No response from my Civil Procedures letter to MBNA's solicitors yet.

 

Many thanks!

Edited April 18, 2009 by bozalt

[bozalt]

hiya bozalt

 

way back i sent a letter and was then sent a letter to call them to go through security,

but then lexis gave me a couple of letters on another of my threads so will come back to refer you to those letters they may help,,,

 

Am Back.......

 

 

its post 66 below link

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/160739-halifax-req-cca-poss.html

 

 

give it a shot see what happens,

 

keep happy laters angel x

 

 

Thanks Angel, your a life saver once again!